Jean Grey: Marvel Girl, Phoenix Appreciation 2019

[Grey]

My issue with the Pink Form in general is that it has no drawbacks, no limitations, and no reason to this point why Jean wouldn't use it in every possible situation. The stated literature has it being able to channel all of the ambient psychic energy in the area, which is open to a million different interpretations. The first use against Gladiator showed that it wasn't just psionically gifted beings she could draw from, so any organic sentient life should be able to work. The use against the Venom Hive showed that even Hive Mind creatures give off enough psionic energy individually to use to power it. Just having someone like Betsy or Rachel within the same area code would power her enough to drop someone like Mister Sinister in a single blow, let alone a lot of people. If she did have the Pink Form in X-Force, what would be the point of any of her teammates?

I do agree the interpretation could use more exact defining. It has been better defined since it was first introduced but it still has some room for interpretation which causes issues

You’re right that it doesn’t have to be psionic beings. But my assumption based on when she’s used the power is that the more powerful the beings, the more powerful she becomes because more powerful beings have stronger psionic signatures. That’s why being around the shiar imperial Guard, galactic/Phoenix, a poison hive mind, and 4 telepaths (Xavier and cuckoos) allowed
Her to use her power so strongly. I admit this Is my interpretation but it seems to be the explanation that makes the most sense.

All that being said, isn’t that a limitation? She can’t draw that kind of force from just anyone and everyone. Only certain situations. That makes it a limitation.

Many people feel that Phoenix level powers at all times are “op”. This is a downgrade in that regard. All I want to establish is that this pink power is less of an issue than constant Phoenix level powers.

I don’t read avengers but captain marvel is a cosmic level hero. Her powers aren’t downgraded based on the threat, right? The fact that teen jean (and presumably adult jean’s) ARE downgraded (in regard to her pink form anyway) makes me feel ok that jean doesn’t need to be downgraded anymore in order to be a believable and enjoyable character.

Added: for the record, I would be totally ok with further limitation being added
To her pink power (example: using it drains all of her allies around her, or temporarily incapacitates her). BUT, even though I’m personally fine with a limitation being added, my point is that it shouldn’t REALLY be necessary based on how other very popular and powerful Heros are written.

[PsychoEFrost]

I do agree the interpretation could use more exact defining. It has been better defined since it was first introduced but it still has some room for interpretation which causes issues

You’re right that it doesn’t have to be psionic beings. But my assumption based on when she’s used the power is that the more powerful the beings, the more powerful she becomes because more powerful beings have stronger psionic signatures. That’s why being around the shiar imperial Guard, galactic/Phoenix, a poison hive mind, and 4 telepaths (Xavier and cuckoos) allowed
Her to use her power so strongly. I admit this Is my interpretation but it seems to be the explanation that makes the most sense.

All that being said, isn’t that a limitation? She can’t draw that kind of force from just anyone and everyone. Only certain situations. That makes it a limitation.

Many people feel that Phoenix level powers at all times are “op”. This is a downgrade in that regard. All I want to establish is that this pink power is less of an issue than constant Phoenix level powers.

I don’t read avengers but captain marvel is a cosmic level hero. Her powers aren’t downgraded based on the threat, right? The fact that teen jean (and presumably adult jean’s) ARE downgraded (in regard to her pink form anyway) makes me feel ok that jean doesn’t need to be downgraded anymore in order to be a believable and enjoyable character.

Added: for the record, I would be totally ok with further limitation being added
To her pink power (example: using it drains all of her allies around her, or temporarily incapacitates her). BUT, even though I’m personally fine with a limitation being added, my point is that it shouldn’t REALLY be necessary based on how other very popular and powerful Heros are written.

I agree with most of this, though the Captain Marvel example doesn't work because the Avengers have several cosmic level members, enough to have them all have something to do against a similarly powered being.

[Omega_DCD]

I thought Emma's form had a crack near the neck afterwards, but that might have been my interpretation.

Nope, Emma was fine...but even if Jeen did crack her diamond form, why is that some threshold? Magneto crack her by choking her with metal...her arm has been cut off...Beak shot her in the face with a diamond bullet and shattered her completely

To quote Storm in X-Treme X-Men "Diamonds are incredibly hard, but not unbreakable. They can be cut, they can be carved, and, if you find the proper stress point and apply sufficient force, they can be shattered"

[PsychoEFrost]

Nope, Emma was fine...but even if Jeen did crack her diamond form, why is that some threshold? Magneto crack her by choking her with metal...her arm has been cut off...Beak shot her in the face with a diamond bullet and shattered her completely

To quote Storm in X-Treme X-Men "Diamonds are incredibly hard, but not unbreakable. They can be cut, they can be carved, and, if you find the proper stress point and apply sufficient force, they can be shattered"

Magneto only did it because movie Magneto did it, which was equally dumb. Beak hit her in the exact weak spot of her diamond form given to him by Esme. Sinister sliced her arm off just by being crazy strong.

But if Jeen had been able to, that would mean she damaged something that inherently shunts TP and TK. It's the equal to a Kryptonian punching a mountain made of Kryptonite.

EDIT: I was incorrect. It took a Celestial, not Sinister, to lop her diamond arm off. That gives you an idea of the force required.

[Del torro]

The last Blue showed that Jean at some point blew off most of Galactus's face, to the point he sends multiple Power Cosmic beings at her. While this is events yet to come, it shows the level that Jean is above everyone else.

That was a zombie galactus. She wasn't the one who blew his face off. He only came to earth because he remembers the punch from years ago

[Omega_DCD]

But if Jeen had been able to, that would mean she damaged something that inherently shunts TP and TK.

Um, what? Emma's diamond form gives hera high degree of telepathic immunity...it does not do anything special against TK beyond the bog-standard enhanced physical durability it gives her

[PsychoEFrost]

That was a zombie galactus. She wasn't the one who blew his face off. He only came to earth because he remembers the punch from years ago

Where does it say that?

[PsychoEFrost]

Um, what? Emma's diamond form gives hera high degree of telepathic immunity...it does not do anything special against TK beyond the bog-standard enhanced physical durability it gives her

The diamond form has previously been shown to resist TK attacks to a fairly large extent.

[Omega_DCD]

Where does it say that?

Jeen is incredulous that Galactus returned to Earth because "she punched him that one time"...the Silver Surfers mention that his flesh is gone, but his rage remains. Clearly Jeen's one punch did not cause Galactus to lose his flesh...he's just hung up on her. Jeen then says his pride's about to take another blow.

The diamond form has previously been shown to resist TK attacks to a fairly large extent.

Examples?

[PsychoEFrost]

Jeen is incredulous that Galactus returned to Earth because "she punched him that one time"...the Silver Surfers mention that his flesh is gone, but his rage remains. Clearly Jeen's one punch did not cause Galactus to lose his flesh...he's just hung up on her. Jeen then says his pride's about to take another blow.


Examples?

During Astonishing X-Men, her diamond form was able to remain standing from a TK blast from Cassandra Nova that knocked down the rest of the team, including Colossus. During Endsong, she did the same when both Dark Jean and QQQ were blasting the X-Men away.

[Omega_DCD]

During Astonishing X-Men, her diamond form was able to remain standing from a TK blast from Cassandra Nova that knocked down the rest of the team, including Colossus. During Endsong, she did the same when both Dark Jean and QQQ were blasting the X-Men away.

Neither of those things happened

[WallStreeter]

Bendis incorporated it by having Jeen be extreme levels of power stronger than everyone else. If all you want are feats, then sure Jeen being the most powerful mutant on Earth by a fair margin works. But I'm not sure how you do any story involving the X-Men's usual opponents without it starting and ending with "Jean went Pink Form, annihilated all of them, and got some ice cream".

Bitter that Frost has been taken way down in scale and importance. That’s all this is really about.

[WallStreeter]

There is danger if she's not doing it all the time bc again she doesnt need to as by and large most of her threats wont necessitate that. With that said, not every s Prior to this there isnt anything stopping Jean from instantly ending most fights by shutting down someone's mind or giving them a TK induced seizure. For the sake of creating a story, we dont see that bc it breaks the narrative. Magik can port anyone to limbo or teleport back in time a few seconds if someone is fatally injured, etc... There's stuff that needs to be ignored and not nitpicked for the same reason. Its unnecesary for Jean to go pink all the time when she should and can handle most situations with her base TK. When she's dealing with cosmic threats like Gladiator and Galactus and doesnt, then I would question what the heck is she doing

I agree with you. Magik has dropped sentinels with her magic. She’s gotten good since training with Dr. Strange, but there are many base threats she could just take out with her soul sword. As for fatally injured people, she brought Legion back to life. She gave Guido back his soul. She can raise the dead if she wants.

Lots of characters are extremely powerful but don’t show all of their powers when the story does mot require it.

[ExodusCloak]

Nope, Emma was fine...but even if Jeen did crack her diamond form, why is that some threshold? Magneto crack her by choking her with metal...her arm has been cut off...Beak shot her in the face with a diamond bullet and shattered her completely

To quote Storm in X-Treme X-Men "Diamonds are incredibly hard, but not unbreakable. They can be cut, they can be carved, and, if you find the proper stress point and apply sufficient force, they can be shattered"

Magneto was snorting mutant growth hormone. And the celestial cut off her arm. She's smooth diamond and can take bullets from a rail gun moving at higher speeds then storms winds. She has smooth edges meaning the tetrahedral carbon shape doesn't apply to Emma. Danger couldn't find a weakness in Whedons run when she analysed the form. Beak had to shoot her at a specific point on her forehead

Frost blocked the Phoenix TK with telepathy in Endsong if that's the scene we're talking about. Going about how her diamond form works psionic energy should pass through her and get refracted given Psylocke blade does nothing to her

Bendis might have had some plan with the pink form that never came to be

[Daedra]

can we go back to the purpose of this thread? I really could not care less about Emma Frost or her lame powerset, even medusa was able to crack her form with her hair......