Jean Grey: Marvel Girl, Phoenix Appreciation 2019

[spirit2011]

Gorgeous!
this is from X-men #1
Brooks made the Marvel Girl costume look beautiful!
https://twitter.com/MarkBrooksArt/st...776641/photo/1
Attachment 86671

The dress is perfect for a party and Brooks is so good.

Nice try, but no. Look at the voice/manner/respect given to Cyclops, Wolverine, Magneto, Xavier, apocalypse, and compare to Moira, Jean, Mystique, Monet, and Emma. There is a difference whether you take it as a negative difference or not. The males are tough, non bitchy with a strong voice and confidence. Plus as I have said repeatedly Hickman has a reputation for this in his other books. He centers the male voice and experience. Again I’m not s hater , I liked his FF run but it was very straight white male centric. It is not hating to point these issues out. I still enjoy these runs even though I did not care for this latest issue due to a variety of reasons, which included Jean’s bizarre portrayal . I also didn’t care for the tedious x-men deaths because it is overdone .

I think the aspect that saved his FF from being completely male centric, was Valeria being the most smart. it still is very white male centric, but at least one thing not being about it happened.
Its not like Hickman doesn't use female characters, but he often center on men.

[Triniking1234]

Hickman's women have also been portrayed as strong, confidence and non-bitchy or did you forget Rasputin's, Future Karima's, Life 3 Destiny's, Emma's and Monet's moments.

Hickman mostly works with what was already established instead of creating new continuity out of thin air like the other Marvel writers. So New Avengers has mostly white dudes since that's what Bendis established. FF has white straight dudes since most of the family are straight, white dudes.

Just like the user with Atomic Robo avatar said his Jean's characterization doesn't much with what Marvel was giving us since Bendis but implying it's some sexist slant is ridiculous.

[Havok83]

If there was ever a time to go pink this past issue was it

[Triniking1234]

She didn't go pink against Ahab and Nate either. This is some bad anime sh*t.

[spirit2011]

If there was ever a time to go pink this past issue was it

If only writers remembered or even wanted Jean to be badass

Hickman's women have also been portrayed as strong, confidence and non-bitchy or did you forget Rasputin's, Future Karima's, Life 3 Destiny's, Emma's and Monet's moments.

Hickman mostly works with what was already established instead of creating new continuity out of thin air like the other Marvel writers. So New Avengers has mostly white dudes since that's what Bendis established. FF has white straight dudes since most of the family are straight, white dudes.

Just like the user with Atomic Robo avatar said his Jean's characterization doesn't much with what Marvel was giving us since Bendis but implying it's some sexist slant is ridiculous.

Hickman clearly forgot about the development Jean had from 1980 to 2019

[Havok83]

She didn't go pink against Ahab and Nate either. This is some bad anime sh*t.

She hadnt learned it by the time she faced Ahab (although you'd think she and Teen Jean would have traded notes). As far as Nate, she has a maternal connection to him and wanted to neutralize him with as little harm to him as possible, especially since he was sick and dying. Her pink form may have risked killing him.

If only writers remembered or even wanted Jean to be badass

I justified her not using it so far bc she hasnt really been placed in scenarios where it would have been necessary but that wasnt the case for the last issue

[spirit2011]

I thought his Moira, Monet and Emma were great, badass and confident to be honest.
Yes, his Jean is far from the best but I don't think there is anything againts woman in his writting.
At least to me

Excluding Moira, Monet and Emma had minor roles. It's very different when compared to magneto, charles and cyclops

[PrezValentine]

Except we are not and you are gaslighting a bit. He has used Moira and the others but compare their voices to the male ones, there is a huge difference. My concerns remain and are valid.

Aight, let's do it. Scott is a cult member who got his team killed. Xavier and Erik are cult leaders. Logan is a thug who's good with kids. Warren is stupid. Cardinal is a coward. Xorn is a suicidal nihilist. Apocalypse is another suicidal warmonger. Kurt is the only one outright likeable. Sabretooth is a disgusting psychopath.

There, I compared. Put that against Emma showing the humans who's boss, Destiny displaying word for word how she has Moira in her hands, Monet sacrificing herself for Jean without losing her pride, Rasputin being portrayed as a warrior to the bone, Karima being an effective and confident antagonist and Moira who got the opportunity to be ten different people, but most were portrayed in a brief but significant manner and is now central to the franchise. And really think about it instead of trying to throw someone under the bus by simplifying their points as mere "gaslighting".

[Digifiend]

She hadnt learned it by the time she faced Ahab (although you'd think she and Teen Jean would have traded notes). As far as Nate, she has a maternal connection to him and wanted to neutralize him with as little harm to him as possible, especially since he was sick and dying. Her pink form may have risked killing him.


I justified her not using it so far bc she hasnt really been placed in scenarios where it would have been necessary but that wasnt the case for the last issue

If it was one of Moira's past lives (i.e. if 616 is her 11th), the whole time displaced O5 thing may never have happened, and therefore no pink form.

[Havok83]

If it was one of Moira's past lives (i.e. if 616 is her 11th), the whole time displaced O5 thing may never have happened, and therefore no pink form.

Fair point

[spirit2011]

If it was one of Moira's past lives (i.e. if 616 is her 11th), the whole time displaced O5 thing may never have happened, and therefore no pink form.

That would be a shame, but it can happen. it would turn O5 even more filler

It's not like Jordan would care that much

[MechaJeanix]

Hickman's women have also been portrayed as strong, confidence and non-bitchy or did you forget Rasputin's, Future Karima's, Life 3 Destiny's, Emma's and Monet's moments.

Hickman mostly works with what was already established instead of creating new continuity out of thin air like the other Marvel writers. So New Avengers has mostly white dudes since that's what Bendis established. FF has white straight dudes since most of the family are straight, white dudes.

Just like the user with Atomic Robo avatar said his Jean's characterization doesn't much with what Marvel was giving us since Bendis but implying it's some sexist slant is ridiculous.

I have not accused anyone of being sexist or have I discussed any such "sexist slant". I have discussed a critical analysis that includes gender and forms of gender differences on how male and female characters are presented (including how they talk, come across, and their presence in scenes, - meaning in media we often exaggerate differences between sexes and genders). For example I do not think many of the women in the comics so far have had the same type of presence that Scott, Logan, Xavier or Magneto display and that includes Rasputin and the others you mentioned. Yes they have had some good moments, but to say they are comparable to Scott, Logan, Xavier, or Magneto just doesn't fit.

We live in a certain world, culture, and society and until Cyke or Wolverine have scenes that Emma, Monet, or Jean usually have then I am calling shenanigans. Could you imagine if Scott acted like Jean did in this issue? If he was shown to be in panic mode and not knowing how to lead or what to do? If it was Wolverine that busted in and saved Sabretooth but had been written with a snarky voice that is often given to Emma? Or if Wolverine was dressed the way Emma was (the dress, the shoes, the sunglasses). This is what I am getting at.. that there is a stereotypical presentation for women characters in media. This is a thing. It has been well studied and documented in various literary studies as well as the media in general. Hickman is a good writer. He writes the male characters very, very well. Same with Rosenberg. But they don't get a pass for it. No one is above criticism, and especially when we have a lot of work to do with other groups (those who are not straight white males). There is this idea that a lot straight white males have trouble identifying with the "other" and I believe that Hickman may not write female characters as well compared to how he writes strong male characters. I will be happy to be wrong. I hope that I am wrong, but we have some slight evidence that there may be an issue (HOx #4).

I'm probably the biggest Grant Morrison fan boy on this board these days. I defend NXM every chance I get with a few exceptions (for example Morrison was problematic with his presentation of Angel Salvador, his use of a Muslim Terrorist on a plane in the issue where Xavier suggests Jean can disarm the bomb in his bowel, to name a few). Writers are not perfect and I believe it is reasonable to criticize Hickman on this issue especially since the criticisms with him on this issue are not new. As I have repeated even non die hard Jean fans are complaining about Jean's portrayal on various boards and especially on twitter, though there are some who never see any problems. There will always be those who deny any type of critical analysis regarding gender, sex, or race. And they will say everything we are seeing is "just in our heads". We have competing definitions of reality, to steal from W.I. Thomas. At that end we'll probably just have to agree to disagree because we view the world fundamentally different.

[TheDeadSpace]

Aight, let's do it. Scott is a cult member who got his team killed. Xavier and Erik are cult leaders. Logan is a thug who's good with kids. Warren is stupid. Cardinal is a coward. Xorn is a suicidal nihilist. Apocalypse is another suicidal warmonger. Kurt is the only one outright likeable. Sabretooth is a disgusting psychopath.

There, I compared. Put that against Emma showing the humans who's boss, Destiny displaying word for word how she has Moira in her hands, Monet sacrificing herself for Jean without losing her pride, Rasputin being portrayed as a warrior to the bone, Karima being an effective and confident antagonist and Moira who got the opportunity to be ten different people, but most were portrayed in a brief but significant manner and is now central to the franchise. And really think about it instead of trying to throw someone under the bus by simplifying their points as mere "gaslighting".

Yeah, I think I agree with you and Triniking1234 on this one.

I have not accused anyone of being sexist or have I discussed any such "sexist slant". I have discussed a critical analysis that includes gender and forms of gender differences on how male and female characters are presented (including how they talk, come across, and their presence in scenes, - meaning in media we often exaggerate differences between sexes and genders). For example I do not think many of the women in the comics so far have had the same type of presence that Scott, Logan, Xavier or Magneto display and that includes Rasputin and the others you mentioned. Yes they have had some good moments, but to say they are comparable to Scott, Logan, Xavier, or Magneto just doesn't fit.

We live in a certain world, culture, and society and until Cyke or Wolverine have scenes that Emma, Monet, or Jean usually have then I am calling shenanigans. Could you imagine if Scott acted like Jean did in this issue? If he was shown to be in panic mode and not knowing how to lead or what to do? If it was Wolverine that busted in and saved Sabretooth but had been written with a snarky voice that is often given to Emma? Or if Wolverine was dressed the way Emma was (the dress, the shoes, the sunglasses). This is what I am getting at.. that there is a stereotypical presentation for women characters in media. This is a thing. It has been well studied and documented in various literary studies as well as the media in general. Hickman is a good writer. He writes the male characters very, very well. Same with Rosenberg. But they don't get a pass for it. No one is above criticism, and especially when we have a lot of work to do with other groups (those who are not straight white males). There is this idea that a lot straight white males have trouble identifying with the "other" and I believe that Hickman may not write female characters as well compared to how he writes strong male characters. I will be happy to be wrong. I hope that I am wrong, but we have some slight evidence that there may be an issue (HOx #4).

I'm probably the biggest Grant Morrison fan boy on this board these days. I defend NXM every chance I get with a few exceptions (for example Morrison was problematic with his presentation of Angel Salvador, his use of a Muslim Terrorist on a plane in the issue where Xavier suggests Jean can disarm the bomb in his bowel, to name a few). Writers are not perfect and I believe it is reasonable to criticize Hickman on this issue especially since the criticisms with him on this issue are not new. As I have repeated even non die hard Jean fans are complaining about Jean's portrayal on various boards and especially on twitter, though there are some who never see any problems. There will always be those who deny any type of critical analysis regarding gender, sex, or race. And they will say everything we are seeing is "just in our heads". We have competing definitions of reality, to steal from W.I. Thomas. At that end we'll probably just have to agree to disagree because we view the world fundamentally different.

Nothing wrong with critiquing certain aspects of media, but to be fair, Scott has been written as cowardly before and incapable of leading within the past few years. At the same time, his conversation with the fantastic four towards the end didn't seem that far off from something Emma might have said herself. Jean definitely felt off, but it might be a bit too early for this form of criticism.

[spirit2011]

Yeah, I think I agree with you and Triniking1234 on this one.



Nothing wrong with critiquing certain aspects of media, but to be fair, Scott has been written as cowardly before and incapable of leading within the past few years. At the same time, his conversation with the fantastic four towards the end didn't seem that far off from something Emma might have said herself. Jean definitely felt off, but it might be a bit too early for this form of criticism.

I think Emma would have been a lot more snarky and fun if she was to interact with the FF

I don't think it is early, when he nailed all characters

[Black Queen]

Wokay! Anyway to help change all this depressing argument here something to take your minds away from all this negativity people here https://www.cbr.com/vote-top-100-dc-marvel-characters/

Voting time ahahhahahahahahahahahah!!!!. No seriously take a break