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  1. #6331
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    AFAIC Jean was the Phoenix and the Phoenix was Jean. The cocoon at the bottom of the bay was a copout. Morrison hinted at it, among others. (I also think Xorn was Magneto and Magneto was Xorn in Planet X, so YMMV)
    When it comes down to it Phoenix was a perfect copy of Jean even if it wasn't explicitly her, and never would have went dark if it hadn't been for Mastermind and Emma in the first place. Plus, Jean got all of Dark Phoenix's memories at the end of Inferno. Even if it wasn't something that the normal Jean consciously did she remembers doing it, and as was mentioned, Dark Phoenix was literally a psychotic break brought on by Emma and Mastermind, if anyone should be guilty, it's them.
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  2. #6332
    Astonishing Member darewithpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    I just thought if something. Every time Moira dies the timeline reboots itself to her point of birth.

    It’s what Hickman is using to reboot the XMen, and probably why we have these resurrections.

    So it could be that this Jean Grey aka Marvel Girl was never Phoenix.

    Maybe Hickman wants to reboot the Phoenix too so he plans on having her become Phoenix later.
    but even marvel girl haved telekinesis, this marvel girl havent showed that power
    we can be heroes, just for one day

  3. #6333
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    Even though she didn't use it, Cyclops did say he would need Jean to hold the escape pod together, implying that she still has her telekinesis.

  4. #6334
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Jean has a complicated psyche
    https://twitter.com/letstalkCyclops/...49701843668993
    Jean Grey has the memories of
    -herself before dying and alive again so many times
    -the memories of her clone Madelyne Pryor
    -the Phoenix force when that entity took her form
    -her younger self who travelled back in time
    -in the future where she raised cable with scott
    STAN HER

  5. #6335
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsword323 View Post
    Even though she didn't use it, Cyclops did say he would need Jean to hold the escape pod together, implying that she still has her telekinesis.
    Yes, she still has her tk.
    tk.jpg
    Last edited by phoenixzero23; 09-08-2019 at 08:58 AM.

  6. #6336
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    On that backup Classic X-Men #8 story it's not even framed as just a copy as much as Jean's soul/essence/life being split, a part being with the Phoenix and another in the coccoon. The reason being that a part of Jean wanted to be Phoenix and the other didn't. Otherwise she would have just given herself completely to the Phoenix and her original body would have just been destroyed.

  7. #6337
    The Great Bull Del torro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    On that backup Classic X-Men #8 story it's not even framed as just a copy as much as Jean's soul/essence/life being split, a part being with the Phoenix and another in the coccoon. The reason being that a part of Jean wanted to be Phoenix and the other didn't. Otherwise she would have just given herself completely to the Phoenix and her original body would have just been destroyed.
    Yeah, Jeans soul was split in half. One in the healing body in the cocoon and the other in the cloned body the Phoenix made.

    When she died on the moon, the part of her soul tried to return to the cocoon but was rejected by the other half. So it went into Madelyne, woke her up and gave her some of Jeans memories.

    At the end of inferno, Madelyne Pryos piece of Jeans soul is returned to Jean. It also gave Jean the memories of Phoenix Jean and Madelyne.

  8. #6338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    On that backup Classic X-Men #8 story it's not even framed as just a copy as much as Jean's soul/essence/life being split, a part being with the Phoenix and another in the coccoon. The reason being that a part of Jean wanted to be Phoenix and the other didn't. Otherwise she would have just given herself completely to the Phoenix and her original body would have just been destroyed.
    As told in "What If v1 #27 Phoenix Had Not Died?, What If v2 #32 Phoenix Had Not Died? and, What If v2 #33 Phoenix Rose Again?
    Last edited by Shreene; 09-08-2019 at 11:51 AM.

  9. #6339
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Del torro View Post
    Yeah, Jeans soul was split in half. One in the healing body in the cocoon and the other in the cloned body the Phoenix made.

    When she died on the moon, the part of her soul tried to return to the cocoon but was rejected by the other half. So it went into Madelyne, woke her up and gave her some of Jeans memories.

    At the end of inferno, Madelyne Pryos piece of Jeans soul is returned to Jean. It also gave Jean the memories of Phoenix Jean and Madelyne.
    An interesting tidbit related to that: The whole resolution of Inferno afterwards in X-Factor is... Not really treated as I wish it was. They're still very persistent in Phoenix-Jean as a different person. And when Jean loses her little Phoenix power(which I guess would now be considered a Phoenix fragment), she says the memories now feel different and not like hers.

    But when Claremont is on the title, he has Jean on the moon vividly remembering everything and saying that "I feel it with every fiber of my being, this is where I died!". I feel like there was like a subtle war between Claremont and... Everyone else in which he tried the most to make his Jean count lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shreene View Post
    As told in "What If v1 #27 Phoenix Had Not Died?, What If v2 #32 Phoenix Had Not Died? and, What If v2 #33 Phoenix Rose Again?
    I haven't read those stories, sorry... But from the descriptions it seems to me like they're both unrelated to that, though in different ways.
    Last edited by Wiccan; 09-08-2019 at 12:12 PM.

  10. #6340
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    When it comes down to it Phoenix was a perfect copy of Jean even if it wasn't explicitly her, and never would have went dark if it hadn't been for Mastermind and Emma in the first place. Plus, Jean got all of Dark Phoenix's memories at the end of Inferno. Even if it wasn't something that the normal Jean consciously did she remembers doing it, and as was mentioned, Dark Phoenix was literally a psychotic break brought on by Emma and Mastermind, if anyone should be guilty, it's them.
    It is really weird that people often forget that, Jean was the victim on this story. But it is also marvel choice of remembering Dark Phoenix like Jean just losing control from nothere to generate some danger to a phoenix story. Also doesn't help that Marvel decided to make Emma a hero

  11. #6341
    New Mutant TOTALITY's Avatar
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    spoiler tags in case anyone hasn't been reading HOX/POX

    spoilers:
    No idea if this will end up happening, and y'all may have already covered this here, but I've had a theory that once they get into whatever Xavier (and presumably Moira... and Sinister?) have been up to with those Krakoan pod births, they'll reveal that they've been doing it for some time already, beginning with the cocoon. Retconning the Busiek retcon -- basically the Phoenix-inhabited Jean *was* the real/only Jean, with the cocoon placed there later by Charles and Moira, a perfect clone with all of Jean's memories up to a certain point. It sounds like this might require explicitly overwriting the aforementioned X-Men Classic backup which I've never read, but I'm sure a lot could be attributed to psychic illusions from Xavier.

    Admittedly this first popped into my head as something that could happen more than something with a clear story function, but I have put some thought into that:

    -if the whole clone thing that we're mostly all anticipating is a kind of commentary on the X-Men's long history of resurrections, then tying it to Jean's history seems almost inevitable thematically

    -it could be that it began with Jean because they needed to ensure the survival of all the omega mutants for their long term plan. And maybe they also wanted a chance to recapture the Phoenix force. And then there is Xavier's personal attachment to Jean :/

    -it would be a great way to get us to accept any new clones as being as 'real' as the original, since the Jean we've had since 1985 has already been real to us for so long.
    end of spoilers

    Thoughts from the Jean stans?

  12. #6342
    Astonishing Member darewithpeace's Avatar
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    even monet shaded jean
    we can be heroes, just for one day

  13. #6343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    An interesting tidbit related to that: The whole resolution of Inferno afterwards in X-Factor is... Not really treated as I wish it was. They're still very persistent in Phoenix-Jean as a different person. And when Jean loses her little Phoenix power(which I guess would now be considered a Phoenix fragment), she says the memories now feel different and not like hers.

    But when Claremont is on the title, he has Jean on the moon vividly remembering everything and saying that "I feel it with every fiber of my being, this is where I died!". I feel like there was like a subtle war between Claremont and... Everyone else in which he tried the most to make his Jean count lol.



    I haven't read those stories, sorry... But from the descriptions it seems to me like they're both unrelated to that, though in different ways.
    You should attempt to do so -- all three issues are great reads and would make more sense in reference to my previous post.

  14. #6344
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darewithpeace View Post
    even monet shaded jean
    That was humiliating. And now everyone brings jean on 90s cartoon that was always fading. Really thank you hickman

    Quote Originally Posted by TOTALITY View Post
    spoiler tags in case anyone hasn't been reading HOX/POX

    spoilers:
    No idea if this will end up happening, and y'all may have already covered this here, but I've had a theory that once they get into whatever Xavier (and presumably Moira... and Sinister?) have been up to with those Krakoan pod births, they'll reveal that they've been doing it for some time already, beginning with the cocoon. Retconning the Busiek retcon -- basically the Phoenix-inhabited Jean *was* the real/only Jean, with the cocoon placed there later by Charles and Moira, a perfect clone with all of Jean's memories up to a certain point. It sounds like this might require explicitly overwriting the aforementioned X-Men Classic backup which I've never read, but I'm sure a lot could be attributed to psychic illusions from Xavier.

    Admittedly this first popped into my head as something that could happen more than something with a clear story function, but I have put some thought into that:

    -if the whole clone thing that we're mostly all anticipating is a kind of commentary on the X-Men's long history of resurrections, then tying it to Jean's history seems almost inevitable thematically

    -it could be that it began with Jean because they needed to ensure the survival of all the omega mutants for their long term plan. And maybe they also wanted a chance to recapture the Phoenix force. And then there is Xavier's personal attachment to Jean :/

    -it would be a great way to get us to accept any new clones as being as 'real' as the original, since the Jean we've had since 1985 has already been real to us for so long.
    end of spoilers

    Thoughts from the Jean stans?
    One of the first thoughts i had when reading this issue was it, that the cocoon is not from Phoenix but Krakoa made
    Last edited by spirit2011; 09-08-2019 at 02:12 PM.

  15. #6345
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    TOTALITY on the HOX/POX thread said something interesting

    If Jean was brought back as a clone, with all her memories, would you count that as bringing her back to like?

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