Jean Grey: Marvel Girl, Phoenix Appreciation 2019

[spirit2011]

It is weird I sometimes think that Superman or Cap aren't treated like characters but more like ideals. Representations of things some people hold to high to critizice much.

It doesn't stop fans from calling superman boring. What surprise me is male creators calling Jean boring, while I never the same for male characters. Seems like they respect male characters a lot more than female characters.
color me shocked

[MechaJeanix]

You are right. During Seagle and Kelly's run, Jean decided to embrace the Phoenix imagery (and powers before the story got axed). The suit was so popular, that editors had - at least - the good idea to let the character keep the suit and the name, even if she didn't have the Phoenix force (that was great. Jean was Phoenix, suit and name, but was herself. No cosmic force involved)

That's why I don't get why in 2019, Jean was back with her Marvel Girl name and suit, during HOX.

2019, with the #metoo movement claiming that women should be strong, editors revert her to her 60's self ? I am not a hater. I loved, really loved POX/HOX. It was clever, fascinating. I never felt that good with a book till Morrison and Whedon's runs. Yes, HOX/POX were great books. But Jean Grey's writing was a shame. Jean Grey would never let herself die without a fight. I mean, she wasn't afraid to die to save her friends; in the space shuttle back in the 70's. And now she's screams like a little girl with no fighting back ? Sorry M. Hickman, I love your work. I think you're a really brillant guy. But you really got Jean wrong.

About the suit, I am disappointed that Dauterman went for the X-Men Red suit. This is one of the worst suit Jean ever wore. The recoloring is a bit helpful. But yet, it's not good.
The Phoenix suit was perfect. It's still perfect. It's timeless, unbroken. Why do editors/writers/artist would choose bad to average, when they have perfection juste before their eyes ?

Why do editors want to sever Jean from her Phoenix legacy, when it's the most popular time/look for the character ?

I agree with like everything you said and welcome back to the forums! Jean was gone a long time and the online fandom dissipated a lot. I think what is exciting with Hickman's run is that he will bring his fans who may or may not be X-men fans but a lot of X-fans who stopped reading/participating online will come back to the fold.

[phoenixzero23]

Mary Sue/Gary Stu seems to be misused quite a bit. I wouldn't say Jean is one at all considering she has flaws, has failed at times, and is not liked by everyone. Also she doesn't come off as a self insert.

These days it seems is more about insulting characters people don't like, sadly.

She isn't in any way. She has defects, really bad things happened to her.

To be a mary sue writers would need to be her fan. this is for someone else

Those are good reasons for why she isn't one.

Jean? No. Jeen? To an extent, but not nearly as bad (and it was understandable as they were pushing her super hard).

Taylor's Jean was kind of, what with Cassandra bending over to let Jean beat her, but overall she's never reached the Mary Sue territory that Aaron's Wolverine or certain Black Panther runs have gone.

I loved X-men Red but Nova is one of my favorite villains and i feel a bit dissapointed on that part. Nova should be an absolute monster. Great villain for Jean but their confrontation could have been better

[TheDeadSpace]

It doesn't stop fans from calling superman boring. What surprise me is male creators calling Jean boring, while I never the same for male characters. Seems like they respect male characters a lot more than female characters.
color me shocked

Honestly this is the first time I've ever seen reference to a creator calling a character boring. So, I can't honestly comment on whether or not I've seen it anywhere else. But to be fair, there are writers that hate some male characters and are vocal about it.

Either way, it's odd to do either when you work for the company the character comes from.

[MechaJeanix]

These days it seems is more about insulting characters people don't like sadly.



Those are good reasons for why she isn't one.

I loved X-men Red but Nova is one of my favorite villains and i feel a bit disapointed on that part. Nova should be an absolute monster. Great villain for Jean but their confrontation could have been better

I agree that Taylor could have done a lot better with Nova. She should have been the x-men's version of Freddie Kruger (before he became a joke lol).

[franckd]

I agree with like everything you said and welcome back to the forums! Jean was gone a long time and the online fandom dissipated a lot. I think what is exciting with Hickman's run is that he will bring his fans who may or may not be X-men fans but a lot of X-fans who stopped reading/participating online will come back to the fold.

thank you very much for the welcome. You're right. It's good to be fan again. After i read HOX/POX each week, I was quite passionate about it. I said to myself that I have to read Uncanny X-Men (that was published just before) and to be honest, I didn't enjoy it. It wa mostly unreadable (for my taste)...

So far I put HOX/POX in my top 10 favorite stories/run. And Marauders looks great. Issue 1 was quite strong.

I agree, I'm sure that Hickman is bringing back a lot of readers.

I loved X-men Red but Nova is one of my favorite villains and i feel a bit dissapointed on that part. Nova should be an absolute monster. Great villain for Jean but their confrontation could have been better

Agreed. It was brilliant to bring Nova as Jean's Nemesis. It made sense. It was organic. But unfortunately, she wasn't scary or creepy or threatening enough. But again, it's difficult - imo - to top Morrison's version of the character.

[spirit2011]

Honestly this is the first time I've ever seen reference to a creator calling a character boring. So, I can't honestly comment on whether or not I've seen it anywhere else. But to be fair, there are writers that hate some male characters and are vocal about it.

Either way, it's odd to do either when you work for the company the character comes from.

I really never see many writers talking badly about male characters. But I never saw a writer working on the character saying it was hard to write because the character is boring, Imagine Bendis talking like this about Superman or Coates about Cap America.
Hard to believe

[PsychoEFrost]

Someone enlighten me to what constitutes a Mary Sue, I was never a fan of language from fanfic (I never liked the term ships or shipping or OTP or any of that). When I think of Mary Sue or Marty Stu I think of Wesley Crusher -even though I loved the character because when ST:TNG originally aired I was younger than Wesley and I loved seeing a young boy on the show and saving the day!

I think of a Mary Sue character is one that always saves the day even when it makes no sense or a character that has flaws but their flaws are a strength and never a weakness. Is this it? I know I can use google but I'm lazy.

A Mary Sue is when the universe seemingly bends over to make that character look good. Everyone likes them, anyone who doesn't is shown as being completely wrong, no flaws, or any flaws are rarely if ever shown.

By that definition, Jean has almost never been one. Jeen KIND OF was, but not really, and Taylor's Jean was similar.

[Harpsikord]

there were a few post calling Jean a mary sue on the giant size thread. Do you guys/girls believe she is one or not?
if not, why not?

I haaaaaaaaate the term Mary Sue; there's only one character in the X-Men that I'd actually use it for, and that's definitely not Jean Grey. It's Sage.

Jean is far from perfect. She's flawed. There are characters who dislike her for more reasons than her just existing. She's temperamental, conflicted, and ultimately imperfect. She's been defeated - even as Teen Jean.

What Jean is, is a moral compass. And people hate morally complex and stringent characters like Jean, but after the DPS Jean has every reason to be so just. She's always trying to make amends for what "she" did and represent what it means to be a superhero.

[WallStreeter]

I haaaaaaaaate the term Mary Sue; there's only one character in the X-Men that I'd actually use it for, and that's definitely not Jean Grey. It's Sage.

Jean is far from perfect. She's flawed. There are characters who dislike her for more reasons than her just existing. She's temperamental, conflicted, and ultimately imperfect. She's been defeated - even as Teen Jean.

What Jean is, is a moral compass. And people hate morally complex and stringent characters like Jean, but after the DPS Jean has every reason to be so just. She's always trying to make amends for what "she" did and represent what it means to be a superhero.

SuperMan and Cap are very moral heroes with Blockbusters. So is Spider Man.

So is Wonder Woman.

A few unhappy people will take the time out to make multiple rants online, yes.

A happy or an indifferent person has no reason to do so.

[WallStreeter]

It is weird I sometimes think that Superman or Cap aren't treated like characters but more like ideals. Representations of things some people hold to high to critizice much.

Comics were aimed at males and there was a lot of sexism in the industry and is. But as the big movie blockbusters are the most profitable part of Marvel they have had to give women a lot more importance.

In the 80s and 90s you never would have seen a female character seriously fight Thanos. Yet you did in Avengers Endgame, especially the Scarlet Witch and Captain Marvel.

[Punch Dimension.]

Considering how Jean treated Maddie and her cold treatment of Rachel i wouldn't call her a mary sue. Jean can be a dickhead sometimes too, just like the rest of the core X-Men. That's what makes the X-Men the X-Men.

[Daedra]

Considering how Jean treated Maddie and her cold treatment of Rachel i wouldn't call her a mary sue. Jean can be a dickhead sometimes too, just like the rest of the core X-Men. That's what makes the X-Men the X-Men.

.....because maddie was such a nice sweetheart to jean....

[spirit2011]

Interior art from Dan Brereton, from Alex Ross curated anthology

[I'm a Fish]

there were a few post calling Jean a mary sue on the giant size thread. Do you guys/girls believe she is one or not?
if not, why not?

All fictional characters are "Mary Sue's" because the writer can write any out come they want for their character.

Some writers are better at disguising it than others, but no matter the medium, if it's fiction the characters will be Mary Sue's because they will automatically be capable of doing whatever is necessary to move the plot along. Or just whatever the writer finds amusing.