Jean Grey: Marvel Girl, Phoenix Appreciation 2019

[magenta]

the one thing I hate is her wearing that helmet and covering up her beautiful face

Who needs to see her face when you still get to see her amazingly modern costume with the 60s mini skirt and the dishwashing gloves?

[franckd]

the one thing I hate is her wearing that helmet and covering up her beautiful face

I am all for "no mask, no helmet, no headband". Well I can deal with headband (I didn't mind her headband with her great revolution suit)
Anyway, I can't wait to read X-Force #2.

[spirit2011]

Your quotes just proved me right. On so many levels.

humm how? it just proved that Claremont was the one that bloxked Morrison, not the editors

[powerpax]

Claremont could not have vetoed anything without editorial approval, that's the whole point. The editors oversee both writers. If an editor chose to give Morrison unilateral control, there would be nothing CC could do about it.

[spirit2011]

Claremont could not have vetoed anything without editorial approval, that's the whole point. The editors oversee both writers. If an editor chose to give Morrison unilateral control, there would be nothing CC could do about it.

Claremont also had editorial power at that time, even if got over run many times

[powerpax]

Claremont also had editorial power at that time, even if got over run many times

Not much! He was disallowed from resurrecting Betsy. He had Beast yanked away for Morrison's run. His (bad) XXM run was regularly interfered with and curtailed/shortened. He did not have authority over Morrison. Editorial had it over both of them. Point being, editorial had the final say.

[spirit2011]

Not much! He was disallowed from resurrecting Betsy. He had Beast yanked away for Morrison's run. His (bad) XXM run was regularly interfered with and curtailed/shortened. He did not have authority over Morrison. Editorial had it over both of them. Point being, editorial had the final say.

That I know, but these were the characters on his book. Like the article I pasted here, He still had some clout and overrun Morrison wishes. Editors were pretty into it

[MechaJeanix]

I was a tad disappointed in both X-books this week so I am hoping for good things next week when X-force comes out. The more I read the other books the more thankful I am that Jean is in X-force. That is not a slam on them, since I think they are "ok" - the 2nd issues were sort of "meh" to me. I think Dawn of X has great promise, the premise and set up is there for some great stories but the execution thus far seems a bit flat compared to the experience of Hox/Pox (in my opinion). I wish the current books had that same excitement and momentum than hox/Pox had. It really drew me back in.

The teaser with Jean's glowing eye was nice. In Marauders a character brought up "the five" when discussing the Xavier situation. Of course they can bring his body back but we all know that they will need a telepath to return his anima/mind/soul. It should be a given that Jean is the person they need. Which I think fans will complain because it is rather predictable, but I wonder if the characters themselves will speculate who can do it.

[Narasinha]

I posted it. Jean has the phoenix

Yes and no because Morrison's whole point about Jean's story line was that the Phoenix always was part of her. She was just regaining access to her full powers but she hadn't transcended into the PF yet (which happen at the end of the story arc).

Morrison didn't retconed the "cocoon" stuff (there is even reference to it). So "his" Jean was the original that nearly died in the shuttle. She never was possessed by the PF. The PF never came to her and gave her/enabled her to use its power. In the context, this power is just inherently part of Jean.

[franckd]

Not much! He was disallowed from resurrecting Betsy. He had Beast yanked away for Morrison's run. His (bad) XXM run was regularly interfered with and curtailed/shortened. He did not have authority over Morrison. Editorial had it over both of them. Point being, editorial had the final say.

I agree 100%
I remmener he was not allowed to resurrect Psylocke, and was a bit upset that he had to give up Beast for Morrison, especially as he had planned some plots for Beast.

[powerpax]

Yes and no because Morrison's whole point about Jean's story line was that the Phoenix always was part of her. She was just regaining access to her full powers but she hadn't transcended into the PF yet (which happen at the end of the story arc).

Morrison didn't retconed the "cocoon" stuff (there is even reference to it). So "his" Jean was the original that nearly died in the shuttle. She never was possessed by the PF. The PF never came to her and gave her/enabled her to use its power. In the context, this power is just inherently part of Jean.

Can you remind me? Again: I haven't read HCT in ages but I recall GM seeming to want to thread the needle between the editorial mandate that she hadn't been Phoenix in the '80s, yet still trying to imply she was. When did he mention the cocoon or overtly imply she was always Phoenix? I remember the 'Jean is just the house where I live' line which seemed to try to have it both ways.

[MechaJeanix]

Can you remind me? Again: I haven't read HCT in ages but I recall GM seeming to want to thread the needle between the editorial mandate that she hadn't been Phoenix in the '80s, yet still trying to imply she was. When did he mention the cocoon or overtly imply she was always Phoenix? I remember the 'Jean is just the house where I live' line which seemed to try to have it both ways.

Morrison wasn't very explicit when it came to the Phoenix. He did have Jean manifest it without ever showing how she got it. It just came from inside her. He used the phoenix egg which we all saw as a version of the cocoon (or re-contextualizing the cocoon but who knows), in HCT Jean hatched from the Phoenix egg. Her powers was described as the ultimate mutation and telekinetic godhood in a jar, Sublime-beast used phoenix like powers by injecting him with Jean's blood.

Even in the Imperial story Cyclops spoke to Jean as if she was the Phoenix (we know what happened last time when you lost control of those big emotions of yours and Jean telling him it was different this time). But I recall on the message boards and things people were upset that the retcon wasn't referenced. In the story with Xavier and Jean, Xavier did reference a rogue phoenix manifestation but it wasn't explicit if Jean was involved or what. It was a sly way of kind of referencing the retcon.


Jean was unplugged from the Phoenix by Cassandra/Ernst and Martha when they unplugged the crown (referring to the crown chakra) which to me implied Jean was connected to the power innately through her tp powers, but again Morrison wasn't explicit. I thought Morrison was saying Jean was naturally a part of the Phoenix as she was shown in death to be in the white hot room and a white phoenix of the crown. But of course other writers since have had their takes and every take on the Phoenix is different.

When it comes to the Phoenix it is always hard to say. I loved in Pak's Endsong when Jean said she was always Jean and always the Phoenix but in Resurrection Jean/Phoenix said something similar and Beast contradicted it. I think Rosenberg was going with the Phoenix as a toxic stalker that just manipulated Jean which took away her agency and that is why I hate Matt Rosenberg's take. It took away the positive feelings that Jean had about the Phoenix in Claremont's, Seagle's, Morrison's, and Pak's stories. I also didn't like Rosenberg having Jean saying she didn't understand the Phoenix and she didn't have a destiny with it (or whatever she said). Jean seemed to know what the Phoenix was about in Endsong and seemed to understand their connection.

I'm rambling so I'm out. Even as Phoenix fan it makes my head hurt. I wish the streamlined version that Morrison wrote had lasted. I think the phoenix is less confusing when it is a part of Jean and not some world destroying cosmic trickster.

[Harpsikord]

Jean's conversation with the Phoenix makes no sense anymore. The whole thing was about how the Phoenix, as it was all powerful, could take all the things that caused Jean pain and etc. and take them away - no more loss, no more anything. Jean wanted it to matter when she lost someone, she didn't want the Phoenix offering, promising, or threatening to bring them back just so that it could make sure she was happy. Even with as much as I disagree with Jean breaking up with the Phoenix I could understand, respect, and empathize with that. Throughout X-Men Red she was taking all her pain and sorrow and everyone else's pain and sorrow and trying to weaponize it into something else, trying to turn it around completely, and it was working.

Flash forward less than a year from the close of X-Men Red and we have Jean happy and peachy keen on Krakoa, which just doesn't feel right to me. I understand that they want the X-Men united underneath one single banner but I don't feel like all of the X-Men would explicitly be okay and involved with Krakoa the way that it is, and to be frank I feel like Jean Grey would be chief among them. Yes, she wants mutants to be happy and to be safe, but the thing about this is... Jean Grey is a woman who fought for mutants to be able to be themselves among their human peers and family members. Someone that turned away something that was once intrinsically part of herself because it invalidated important parts of life: death and loss. Someone that thought the idea of putting all mutant characters in one, generalized location was unequivocally a bad idea. And now she's all for each and every part of that? No. I love that Jean is a member of the Quiet Council but I'd actually say that she would be among the first to buck against Krakoa's ideals.

And that's without going into how against working with characters like current (as of the end of X-Men Blue at least) Magneto, Xorn, Apocalypse, and even Xavier himself if she were entirely aware of the things that these men did Jean should rightfully be. I'm all in for X-Force and them displaying Jean as a badass force of nature, I have high hopes for Hickman's Jean in Giant-Sized, but the fact of the matter is that I don't feel like Jean should be here. Not all mutants are going to want to be on Krakoa - in fact most people thought that was what Fallen Angels was going to be about, but that's more X-Force than X-Force itself - and Jean headlining a group of mutants that still want to belong and coexist alongside the rest of the world would feel like the natural extension of who her character has been as portrayed by her most definitive writers (Claremont, Simonson, Morrison, Taylor).

Instead, under Hickman we have her playing housewife and Percy might have a decent voice for her so far but she's playing sheep just like the rest of the X-Men.

[PsychoEFrost]

Jean's conversation with the Phoenix makes no sense anymore. The whole thing was about how the Phoenix, as it was all powerful, could take all the things that caused Jean pain and etc. and take them away - no more loss, no more anything. Jean wanted it to matter when she lost someone, she didn't want the Phoenix offering, promising, or threatening to bring them back just so that it could make sure she was happy. Even with as much as I disagree with Jean breaking up with the Phoenix I could understand, respect, and empathize with that. Throughout X-Men Red she was taking all her pain and sorrow and everyone else's pain and sorrow and trying to weaponize it into something else, trying to turn it around completely, and it was working.

Flash forward less than a year from the close of X-Men Red and we have Jean happy and peachy keen on Krakoa, which just doesn't feel right to me. I understand that they want the X-Men united underneath one single banner but I don't feel like all of the X-Men would explicitly be okay and involved with Krakoa the way that it is, and to be frank I feel like Jean Grey would be chief among them. Yes, she wants mutants to be happy and to be safe, but the thing about this is... Jean Grey is a woman who fought for mutants to be able to be themselves among their human peers and family members. Someone that turned away something that was once intrinsically part of herself because it invalidated important parts of life: death and loss. Someone that thought the idea of putting all mutant characters in one, generalized location was unequivocally a bad idea. And now she's all for each and every part of that? No. I love that Jean is a member of the Quiet Council but I'd actually say that she would be among the first to buck against Krakoa's ideals.

And that's without going into how against working with characters like current (as of the end of X-Men Blue at least) Magneto, Xorn, Apocalypse, and even Xavier himself if she were entirely aware of the things that these men did Jean should rightfully be. I'm all in for X-Force and them displaying Jean as a badass force of nature, I have high hopes for Hickman's Jean in Giant-Sized, but the fact of the matter is that I don't feel like Jean should be here. Not all mutants are going to want to be on Krakoa - in fact most people thought that was what Fallen Angels was going to be about, but that's more X-Force than X-Force itself - and Jean headlining a group of mutants that still want to belong and coexist alongside the rest of the world would feel like the natural extension of who her character has been as portrayed by her most definitive writers (Claremont, Simonson, Morrison, Taylor).

Instead, under Hickman we have her playing housewife and Percy might have a decent voice for her so far but she's playing sheep just like the rest of the X-Men.

It's the square peg in the round hole problem. Hickman had a story to tell, and he was going to tell it, no matter how much it warps everyone involved. Jean shouldn't be alone in questioning what we're seeing. Logan, Laura, and Ororo would also be heavily against it.

I don't like it, but we have stories that aren't "all mutants will die in one month because contrived reason", so I let it slide. But there is a huge narrative disconnect.

[Harpsikord]

It's the square peg in the round hole problem. Hickman had a story to tell, and he was going to tell it, no matter how much it warps everyone involved. Jean shouldn't be alone in questioning what we're seeing. Logan, Laura, and Ororo would also be heavily against it.

I don't like it, but we have stories that aren't "all mutants will die in one month because contrived reason", so I let it slide. But there is a huge narrative disconnect.

I think that's where a lot of my problem with House of X and Hickman's issues of Dawn of X are, too. I sure do appreciate the X-Men when they're telling a genuinely good story - but that's not exactly why I'm here. I'm connected to the characters; it's them that are important to me. I can forgive a mediocre story if the characterization is on point.

It feels like Hickman is using most of the X-Men to spin his own story on metahumans and them finding a place of their own. He's using them as set pieces instead of writing the story around them.