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  1. #9016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    At first I thought this was contradictory with Phoenix Resurrection Jean. After all, she seemed to believe that people dying should be considered natural and not for a force to undo... Well, in a way I guess it kind of really is, thanks to everyone needing to agree with the current Krakoa status quo. But at the same time, it also fits with how the Phoenix' promise of immortality and resurrection for her and her loved ones didn't tempt her at all.
    Ah Phoenix Resurrection, the less said of that the better overall, but her not being tempted then really allows this current story to dovetail. Besides the part about bringing people back, as you said.

    I guess the real mistake was in saying that the Phoenix could bring any dead person back just because it wants to. And then again, the real, real mistake was in giving the Phoenix wants outside of direction from Jean or corruption from its hosts.

    I should become an editor so I can fix the Phoenix lol.

  2. #9017
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    The Phoenix really shouldn't be hard to fix. It can even keep its own sentience and place in the Marvel universe as an omnipotent force, but it doesn't need to be any different than those other vague forces.

    I've said for a long, long time that the Phoenix is one of Marvel's most lucrative properties and they need to simplify it. Start by permanently tying it to Jean Grey and no one else - let it make her the X-Men's biggest actual powerhouse in the same capacity that Thor or Captain Marvel or what have you is for the Avengers, have her own abilities limited to that of incredible and intense psychic powers as opposed to adding in reality manipulation, teleportation, and such as that with the added benefit of the Force being able to resurrect Jean or other characters as necessary... so long as Phoenix is primarily Jean Grey. If Phoenix is Phoenix in control, as in the force, it'd be a bit different.

    But most importantly, the Phoenix needs some kind of limiting factor so that Jean can maintain her humanity (because writers seem to be very tempted with the fact that the Phoenix itself is a god and, thus, whoever wields it becomes akin to a god whether that's a benevolent or malevolent one, of which Jean has been both) and could still, potentially, live.

    I think that the Phoenix should be like the Avatar state from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Something that exists within Jean Grey, that can amplify her power at times of great strife that are necessary. The Green Phoenix would be the basic template and that would just be... Jean with her own omega level psychic powers, Jean at her base, still capable, still among if not the strongest X-Man, in complete control. Effectively, for a comparison, this would be Jean as of X-Men Red, X-Force, and etc. Green represents Jean at her best; balance and life.

    The Red Phoenix is the Dark Phoenix. This is what happens when the Phoenix has total and complete control - when Jean isn't a house that she lives in so much as a house that she takes over. It's chaotic, mostly malevolent; this is the Phoenix that has one purpose and one purpose alone, to burn away what doesn't work and start over again. This Phoenix has hellfire, flames that can't be put out, and is just overall one of the most destructive forces in the universe. Jean isn't dumb enough or weak enough to relinquish control - but that's not to say that it would never happen... There would, of course, be protocols in place if Jean were to ever have to go Dark.

    The White Phoenix of the Crown is the Phoenix and Jean Grey in true balance with one another. This is the Phoenix and Jean when they make a deal with one another, when they realize that they are both needed to accomplish a means to an end; this is the Phoenix that we saw at the end of Phoenix Endsong who was healing universes and destroying that which didn't work all within the same motion. This is the same Jean that we saw take a Shi'Ar Fission Bomb entirely into herself in order to save the Planet Earth and her friends. This is, for all intents and purposes, the Phoenix that we saw healing the M'Kraan Crystal back when Shi'Ar space was first introduced (despite her wearing green then). This is the Phoenix that can go toe to with Scarlet Witch wielding the Life Force, Thanos with a full Infinity Gauntlet, and etc and still very possible come out on top. This is the Jean that is effectively the strongest character in the Marvel Universe bar none. This is the rarest 'version' of Phoenix because she only ever appears when the universe is in dire straits.

    Mostly, stories would just be told with Jean as her green Phoenix self, but the one true Phoenix would at all times be Jean Grey. But for some reason Marvel is afraid of the Jean Grey/Phoenix combination.
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  3. #9018
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    That would work and be great.
    Another way could be to take a clue from Alan Davis Excalibur run with Rachel having some Limit on the Phoenix. They would just Need to decide how powerful that would be.

  4. #9019
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    The Phoenix really shouldn't be hard to fix. It can even keep its own sentience and place in the Marvel universe as an omnipotent force, but it doesn't need to be any different than those other vague forces.

    I've said for a long, long time that the Phoenix is one of Marvel's most lucrative properties and they need to simplify it. Start by permanently tying it to Jean Grey and no one else - let it make her the X-Men's biggest actual powerhouse in the same capacity that Thor or Captain Marvel or what have you is for the Avengers, have her own abilities limited to that of incredible and intense psychic powers as opposed to adding in reality manipulation, teleportation, and such as that with the added benefit of the Force being able to resurrect Jean or other characters as necessary... so long as Phoenix is primarily Jean Grey. If Phoenix is Phoenix in control, as in the force, it'd be a bit different.

    But most importantly, the Phoenix needs some kind of limiting factor so that Jean can maintain her humanity (because writers seem to be very tempted with the fact that the Phoenix itself is a god and, thus, whoever wields it becomes akin to a god whether that's a benevolent or malevolent one, of which Jean has been both) and could still, potentially, live.

    I think that the Phoenix should be like the Avatar state from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Something that exists within Jean Grey, that can amplify her power at times of great strife that are necessary. The Green Phoenix would be the basic template and that would just be... Jean with her own omega level psychic powers, Jean at her base, still capable, still among if not the strongest X-Man, in complete control. Effectively, for a comparison, this would be Jean as of X-Men Red, X-Force, and etc. Green represents Jean at her best; balance and life.

    The Red Phoenix is the Dark Phoenix. This is what happens when the Phoenix has total and complete control - when Jean isn't a house that she lives in so much as a house that she takes over. It's chaotic, mostly malevolent; this is the Phoenix that has one purpose and one purpose alone, to burn away what doesn't work and start over again. This Phoenix has hellfire, flames that can't be put out, and is just overall one of the most destructive forces in the universe. Jean isn't dumb enough or weak enough to relinquish control - but that's not to say that it would never happen... There would, of course, be protocols in place if Jean were to ever have to go Dark.

    The White Phoenix of the Crown is the Phoenix and Jean Grey in true balance with one another. This is the Phoenix and Jean when they make a deal with one another, when they realize that they are both needed to accomplish a means to an end; this is the Phoenix that we saw at the end of Phoenix Endsong who was healing universes and destroying that which didn't work all within the same motion. This is the same Jean that we saw take a Shi'Ar Fission Bomb entirely into herself in order to save the Planet Earth and her friends. This is, for all intents and purposes, the Phoenix that we saw healing the M'Kraan Crystal back when Shi'Ar space was first introduced (despite her wearing green then). This is the Phoenix that can go toe to with Scarlet Witch wielding the Life Force, Thanos with a full Infinity Gauntlet, and etc and still very possible come out on top. This is the Jean that is effectively the strongest character in the Marvel Universe bar none. This is the rarest 'version' of Phoenix because she only ever appears when the universe is in dire straits.

    Mostly, stories would just be told with Jean as her green Phoenix self, but the one true Phoenix would at all times be Jean Grey. But for some reason Marvel is afraid of the Jean Grey/Phoenix combination.
    Did you read Classic X-men #43? Claremont sums up (in my opinion) what the Phoenix force should be, Jeans birthright. Like how Excalibur is King Arthur's birth right, the Phoenix Force is Jeans birthright.

    Basically the Phoenix Force was just a force that had no will or desire of its own, but through Jean it became the Phoenix Force. I recommend reading it, and I think all authors who are going to write the Phoenix Force should read it. Chris Claremont did a really good job of defining the Phoenix Force without undoing everything that came before it.

    I do agree that authors shouldn't shy away from Jean being Phoenix and Claremont made it work for years before the Dark Phoenix Saga, so I don't know why no one else can.
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 12-12-2019 at 10:12 AM.

  5. #9020
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    Protect her at all costs

  6. #9021
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Did you read Classic X-men #43? Claremont sums up (in my opinion) what the Phoenix force should be, Jeans birthright. Like how Excalibur is King Arthur's birth right, the Phoenix Force is Jeans birthright.

    Basically the Phoenix Force was just a force that had no will or desire of its own, but through Jean it became the Phoenix Force. I recommend reading it, and I think all authors who are going to write the Phoenix Force should read it. Chris Claremont did a really good job of defining the Phoenix Force without undoing everything that came before it.

    I do agree that authors shouldn't shy away from Jean being Phoenix and Claremont made it work for years before the Dark Phoenix Saga, so I don't know why no one else can.
    The problem with the Phoenix lies in the fact that the misogynist that was John Byrne came in and decided that he didn't like the fact that a female character was so powerful, so they made her go dark and Claremont/the editors let him do it. I'm not fond of the Dark Phoenix saga, I think it was unnecessary even if it's iconic, and... yeah.

    I'm okay with the idea of the Phoenix having its own desires and personality outside of Jean, it's been defined as having it's own persona since the days of the original Excalibur, that works for it. But I do love the idea that it hadn't felt any real emotions for such a long time until it bonded with Jean Grey - and yeah, then there's the birthright thing. Morrison tied the Phoenix to Jean's DNA, and I think that works perfectly too.

    Jean was basically born to be Phoenix.
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  7. #9022
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    The problem with the Phoenix lies in the fact that the misogynist that was John Byrne came in and decided that he didn't like the fact that a female character was so powerful, so they made her go dark and Claremont/the editors let him do it. I'm not fond of the Dark Phoenix saga, I think it was unnecessary even if it's iconic, and... yeah.

    I'm okay with the idea of the Phoenix having its own desires and personality outside of Jean, it's been defined as having it's own persona since the days of the original Excalibur, that works for it. But I do love the idea that it hadn't felt any real emotions for such a long time until it bonded with Jean Grey - and yeah, then there's the birthright thing. Morrison tied the Phoenix to Jean's DNA, and I think that works perfectly too.

    Jean was basically born to be Phoenix.
    Was DPS really Byrne's idea? What I knew about it is that he just made it worse by making her actually kill an inhabited planet.

  8. #9023
    Astonishing Member CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post


    Protect her at all costs
    The spicy chicken will protect again eventually.

  9. #9024
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Was DPS really Byrne's idea? What I knew about it is that he just made it worse by making her actually kill an inhabited planet.
    Byrne came on and convinced Claremont & their editors that Phoenix was too powerful and should go dark, so we got the bare bones of DPS.

    He's also the """mastermind""" behind Darker than Scarlet and Invisible Woman being possessed by Malice. See a pattern?
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  10. #9025
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Byrne came on and convinced Claremont & their editors that Phoenix was too powerful and should go dark, so we got the bare bones of DPS.

    He's also the """mastermind""" behind Darker than Scarlet and Invisible Woman being possessed by Malice. See a pattern?
    Yeah, byrne has a pattern of ruining powerful women. Good tha the didn't had time to ruin Danvers.
    Sue, Wanda and Jean are 3 of the most powerful and went a dark phase on Byrne pen.

    Jean with phoenix was going to go toe to toe with Thor. Why Thor is allowed it and she isn't?
    The bad is that people don't read the story and thinks she just went crazy with power
    Last edited by spirit2011; 12-12-2019 at 03:55 PM.

  11. #9026
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Byrne came on and convinced Claremont & their editors that Phoenix was too powerful and should go dark, so we got the bare bones of DPS.

    He's also the """mastermind""" behind Darker than Scarlet and Invisible Woman being possessed by Malice. See a pattern?
    Yeah I knew about those. But I thought DPS was more of Claremont's idea. I still think he wrote it pretty well though. At the end it just reinforces how good and selfless Jean is, and as spirit said, contrary to popular belief Jean didn't just go crazy because she couldn't control the Phoenix but because she was manipulated and brainwashed. I honestly think that the worst mistake was how they brought her back.

  12. #9027
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Yeah I knew about those. But I thought DPS was more of Claremont's idea. I still think he wrote it pretty well though. At the end it just reinforces how good and selfless Jean is, and as spirit said, contrary to popular belief Jean didn't just go crazy because she couldn't control the Phoenix but because she was manipulated and brainwashed. I honestly think that the worst mistake was how they brought her back.
    I still have a problem with it even with that in mind. The DPS is effectively the story about a strong woman in power who is mentally and emotionally abused (by both a man and a woman) and it drives her insane, causing her to commit actual genocide. The entire middle part of the story focuses on the men in her life more than her - Charles and Scott - and even when it comes to the end instead of allowing Jean to pull herself together, they were forced to kill her off.

    I dunno. Maybe it's good in a vacuum, but...
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  13. #9028
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    I still have a problem with it even with that in mind. The DPS is effectively the story about a strong woman in power who is mentally and emotionally abused (by both a man and a woman) and it drives her insane, causing her to commit actual genocide. The entire middle part of the story focuses on the men in her life more than her - Charles and Scott - and even when it comes to the end instead of allowing Jean to pull herself together, they were forced to kill her off.

    I dunno. Maybe it's good in a vacuum, but...
    Shooter really thought that she couldn't come back from genocide.

    But for me the biggest mistake is that people think Jean simply went crazy

  14. #9029
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    The fact that they had to come up with such a convoluted plot point to bring her back seems silly in retrospective considering how flawed Marvel allows its heroes to be in 2019 and how villians joining the X-men is not an exception but rather the norm

  15. #9030
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    Percy's Jean is very good. Love what we've seen of her.

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