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  1. #1396
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Addressing it and addressing it in a satisfactory way are two separate things.
    For your sakes...I hope they do resolve it in a satisfactory manner but...1) I don't have that much faith in the current writers. 2) Going by what I've seen/read of the (CBR) fan-dom, you guys are never appeased easily.
    So...good luck with that (I mean that sincerely)
    The problem is that at his point they can't retcon. Not sure what can be done, maybe say that Bishop was on a serious mental breakdown

  2. #1397
    Spectacular Member GigaBalls's Avatar
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    Honestly I think Bishop should have become an X-Villain instead of returning to be a hero again. I mean that dude has probably killed more innocent people than Sabretooth and the 100 Sabretooth clones that Mr. Sinister made combined.

    In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Bishop has a higher innocent kill count than 90% of Marvel's villains combined. Dude's kill count is even higher than Cassandra Nova's at this point probably.

  3. #1398
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    The problem is that at his point they can't retcon. Not sure what can be done, maybe say that Bishop was on a serious mental breakdown
    Exactatiously. The "Mental Breakdown" or "Possession" excuses just don't cut it. Travelling through time to undo the damage would be another cop-out.
    There's no excuse really as you rightly point out...they cannot retcon his actions.
    Those "future" lives cannot be restored, the murders cannot be undone, the moral dilemma of committing those atrocities will always weigh heavily on his conscience. I feel the better bet would be to own up to the travesty, attempt to make amends in some way, and just move on.

  4. #1399
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Exactatiously. The "Mental Breakdown" or "Possession" excuses just don't cut it. Travelling through time to undo the damage would be another cop-out.
    There's no excuse really as you rightly point out...they cannot retcon his actions.
    Those "future" lives cannot be restored, the murders cannot be undone, the moral dilemma of committing those atrocities will always weigh heavily on his conscience. I feel the better bet would be to own up to the travesty, attempt to make amends in some way, and just move on.
    That is the best way and I think this is where zac/Lonnie are going.

    Quote Originally Posted by GigaBalls View Post
    Honestly I think Bishop should have become an X-Villain instead of returning to be a hero again. I mean that dude has probably killed more innocent people than Sabretooth and the 100 Sabretooth clones that Mr. Sinister made combined.

    In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Bishop has a higher innocent kill count than 90% of Marvel's villains combined. Dude's kill count is even higher than Cassandra Nova's at this point probably.
    that is the only black male constantly on x-men books

  5. #1400
    Ultimate Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Wanda was in the trillions
    Xavier was more then 8 billion it was a few 8 billions
    Bishop & Jean/Phoenix I think are 8 billion on the spot
    Beast is difficult to ascertain but he destroyed one planet and he commuted genocide against the Phalanx and Skrulls
    Cassandra nova is 16 million
    Angel destroyed a city a few million when he had the death seed
    Magneto empd the earth destroying hospital equipment and other equipment which resulted in thousands of deaths



    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 02-15-2019 at 06:05 PM.

  6. #1401
    Mighty Member nightw1ng's Avatar
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    For those who collect Jean-related merchandise, Funko announced they'll be putting out several Dark Phoenix figures this year.
    Funko has previously made Phoenix figures in the past, but they are hard to find and cost a lot. I think Jean is only rivaled by Wolverine and Deadpool for most kinds of X-Men figures made by Funko, so I think it's a testament to how enduring and popular Jean's Phoenix imagery is.


  7. #1402
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...-relationships
    seems like zac like jean/wolverine, both lonnie and Zac lime cyclops/jean as parents

  8. #1403
    Fantastic Member Conor's Avatar
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    D1847D0A-0B29-487A-BEAB-7B5AD4C597CD.jpg

    Been reading Claremont’s Revolution run in UXM and one particular panel got me thinking about Jean and her connection to the PF. A few pages before the attached panel above, Jean, when attacked by an opposing psi, unleashes a huge Phoenix raptor upon him when he attempts to psychically obliterate her most precious memories. After the fight ended, the remaining enemies fled by utilising some sort of teleport mechanism. After they abandoned the scene, Jean spoke in a menacing tone, a similar tone to how Phoenix spoke intimidatingly to Emma Frost, during their first encounter when The White Queen kidnapped Kitty and several other X-members. Now I know during this era, after the psi-switch with Betsy, Jean was fond of using her telepathy to summon a psionic Phoenix raptor, similar to how Psylocke’s ultimate expression of her tp was a psi-knife but the above panel got me thinking.. could Jean’s connection to The Phoenix Force have been re-established a little earlier than when she first rekindled her connection to the entity while fighting the U-Men in New X-Men. Cable, in the above panel, was concerned to the point that he was even considering stabbing her with his Psi-mitar so as to strip her of her abilities. What are your guys’ thoughts? Do you believe Jean was reconnecting with The Phoenix even as early as Claremont’s Revolution run? Maybe her grief over Cyclops’ death caused her to, on a subconscious level, to “open herself up” so that The Phoenix could rekindle it’s connection with her. I haven’t read any further issues so I have no idea if this plot-point was expanded upon further or completely dropped. I don’t think it would be entirely ridiculous to believe that Jean was once again tapping into the PF before Morrison got his hands on her.

  9. #1404
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conor View Post
    D1847D0A-0B29-487A-BEAB-7B5AD4C597CD.jpg

    Been reading Claremont’s Revolution run in UXM and one particular panel got me thinking about Jean and her connection to the PF. A few pages before the attached panel above, Jean, when attacked by an opposing psi, unleashes a huge Phoenix raptor upon him when he attempts to psychically obliterate her most precious memories. After the fight ended, the remaining enemies fled by utilising some sort of teleport mechanism. After they abandoned the scene, Jean spoke in a menacing tone, a similar tone to how Phoenix spoke intimidatingly to Emma Frost, during their first encounter when The White Queen kidnapped Kitty and several other X-members. Now I know during this era, after the psi-switch with Betsy, Jean was fond of using her telepathy to summon a psionic Phoenix raptor, similar to how Psylocke’s ultimate expression of her tp was a psi-knife but the above panel got me thinking.. could Jean’s connection to The Phoenix Force have been re-established a little earlier than when she first rekindled her connection to the entity while fighting the U-Men in New X-Men. Cable, in the above panel, was concerned to the point that he was even considering stabbing her with his Psi-mitar so as to strip her of her abilities. What are your guys’ thoughts? Do you believe Jean was reconnecting with The Phoenix even as early as Claremont’s Revolution run? Maybe her grief over Cyclops’ death caused her to, on a subconscious level, to “open herself up” so that The Phoenix could rekindle it’s connection with her. I haven’t read any further issues so I have no idea if this plot-point was expanded upon further or completely dropped. I don’t think it would be entirely ridiculous to believe that Jean was once again tapping into the PF before Morrison got his hands on her.
    Jean didnt have the Phoenix Force in Claremont's run. That was made explicit later on when she was confronted with demons from Dark Phoenix when the D'Bari survivor attacked her. There hasnt been any retcons to connect Jean becoming Phoenix in New X-men to Claremont's run.

    FYI, Jean displayed a psionic Phoenix raptor prior to Revolution. She did so in Xmen 70
    Last edited by Havok83; 02-17-2019 at 06:28 PM.

  10. #1405
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Jean started manifesting the Phoenix in the run immediately preceding Claremont's revolution by Joe Kelly - it wasn't until Morrison's run that it was fully recognized and embraced... at least as far as authorial intent goes.
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  11. #1406
    Astonishing Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Jean didnt have the Phoenix Force in Claremont's run. That was made explicit later on when she was confronted with demons from Dark Phoenix when the D'Bari survivor attacked her. There hasnt been any retcons to connect Jean becoming Phoenix in New X-men to Claremont's run.

    FYI, Jean displayed a psionic Phoenix raptor prior to Revolution. She did so in Xmen 70
    While it is true when Claremont wrote those stories Jean did not have the Phoenix force I do wonder if current creators realize that? In Morrison's run we witnessed Jean manifest the Phoenix but we never were told when she re-connected to it or how it came about that she was channeling the power (well it was implied perhaps it was through her expanding powers, maybe?) In X-men Red Jean makes a wild statement about never using Cerebro without the fear of the Phoenix taking over. In PR you almost get the feeling that Rosenberg felt the Phoenix has been with Jean or circling her since the original Phoenix days. Rosenberg did make a comment during an interview that the Phoenix had overshadowed Jean for a very long time (though I would argue the opposite since when most fans think of the Phoenix they think of Jean and her major stories).

    It is very confusing. One could almost infer that Jean began re-connecting with Phoenix as early as Kelly/Seagle's run, or perhaps even before?

  12. #1407
    Mighty Member nightw1ng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conor View Post
    D1847D0A-0B29-487A-BEAB-7B5AD4C597CD.jpg

    Been reading Claremont’s Revolution run in UXM and one particular panel got me thinking about Jean and her connection to the PF. A few pages before the attached panel above, Jean, when attacked by an opposing psi, unleashes a huge Phoenix raptor upon him when he attempts to psychically obliterate her most precious memories. After the fight ended, the remaining enemies fled by utilising some sort of teleport mechanism. After they abandoned the scene, Jean spoke in a menacing tone, a similar tone to how Phoenix spoke intimidatingly to Emma Frost, during their first encounter when The White Queen kidnapped Kitty and several other X-members. Now I know during this era, after the psi-switch with Betsy, Jean was fond of using her telepathy to summon a psionic Phoenix raptor, similar to how Psylocke’s ultimate expression of her tp was a psi-knife but the above panel got me thinking.. could Jean’s connection to The Phoenix Force have been re-established a little earlier than when she first rekindled her connection to the entity while fighting the U-Men in New X-Men. Cable, in the above panel, was concerned to the point that he was even considering stabbing her with his Psi-mitar so as to strip her of her abilities. What are your guys’ thoughts? Do you believe Jean was reconnecting with The Phoenix even as early as Claremont’s Revolution run? Maybe her grief over Cyclops’ death caused her to, on a subconscious level, to “open herself up” so that The Phoenix could rekindle it’s connection with her. I haven’t read any further issues so I have no idea if this plot-point was expanded upon further or completely dropped. I don’t think it would be entirely ridiculous to believe that Jean was once again tapping into the PF before Morrison got his hands on her.
    I may be misremembering some of the details, but didn't Claremont plan on revealing that Stryfe was influencing some of the X-Men behind the scenes. That would explain Jean's darker nature coming out rather than her connecting to the Phoenix Force. I recall reading somewhere that one of Claremont's many dropped plots for his second run was the Summers Rebellion, which was something like Stryfe taking over the school after he mind-controls Cable, Rachel, Alex, and Jean. (The Summers Rebellion was a dangling plot teased by Bishop when he was introduced in the 90s, and although Claremont didn't get to tell it, Peter David tied it up but wrote something much different years later in his X-Factor run with it occurring in an alternate future instead.)

  13. #1408
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    They should have never made the Phoenix Force a thing at all, and just stuck with the original idea that Phoenix was just Jean reaching her full potential which works much better from a narrative standpoint. Of course this does leave on her on the hook for all those dead D'Bari, but it's not like the off-panel deaths of a bunch of broccoli people ever really struck an emotional chord with anyone, they could have just as easily hand waved that away by having some character offhandedly comment that they were rulers of some massive galactic slave empire or something like that.

  14. #1409
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...-relationships
    seems like zac like jean/wolverine, both lonnie and zac lime cyclops/jean as parents
    404 page not found

  15. #1410
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    They should have never made the Phoenix Force a thing at all, and just stuck with the original idea that Phoenix was just Jean reaching her full potential which works much better from a narrative standpoint. Of course this does leave on her on the hook for all those dead D'Bari, but it's not like the off-panel deaths of a bunch of broccoli people ever really struck an emotional chord with anyone, they could have just as easily hand waved that away by having some character offhandedly comment that they were rulers of some massive galactic slave empire or something like that.
    You just gave me the idea that on some distant planet Jean as the Phoenix is revered as the people's savior. Imagine The D'Bari were not the peaceful vegetable guys they looked like but guilty of countless death and the Phoenix instinctively knew it?
    I understand your idea that Phoenix should be the embodiement of Jean's power but that's not the story they chose. Let's try to shift a little blame off the Phoenix.

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