Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[phoenixzero23]

It would be really bad if they just act like strangers. I don't want that
For all his mistakes Scott did miss Jean a lot while she was dead and Jean missed him, they also seemed to care a lot for the teenage version of the other. After not seeing each other for so long and coming back from the death acting like nothing or just friends would be so dumb.
Even if they aren't together a hope Marvel/Hickman does something fun with them (related to the relationship of course). I hope it doesn't get ignored but it will probably be.
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[Neocide]

I think we'll get glimpses of them together with hints of if they are "together together" until that story eventually plays out. Hickman might not like writing personal stuff in books, but little hints here and there I don't think are beyond him. It could lead to some fun speculation as to where we think they are in their relationship and when we'll finally find out for sure. I think I'm kinda done feeling negative about this pairing's future, I've always been told if you think positive eventually positive will come back to you it might be hard, but it's worth a shot.


Also I think the conjuring does a good job of showing a stable couple who both feel as equals in their field, yea it's about ghosts but I could literally imagine Scott and Jean being this couple finding new mutants. And it actually working to show each characters strengths and abilities and allowing you also to see how well they balance each other. I think those people who think X with X in a relationship holds back X is not the couples fault but the writers, it almost feels like a lazy way out of writing a couple together because YOU don't know how to balance them, not because it only defines them to one thing.

[Ulfhammer]

Same. I am terrified of Williams or Rosenberg continuing to write any of the characters I like. Pak is still a possible danger though.

I'm less concerned about Pak. Endsong was a long time ago and I don't think what he wrote was the worst possible version of that story for Jott. I know other's disagree but I'm sticking to my guns on that one.

Yeah, Williams is definitely terrifying is she ever got to write these two. Rosenberg I'm on the fence on. I think he's not as much of an anti-Jott guy as he appears. It's hard to forget the choices he made with PR, good and bad. It was a mixed bag. I'm guessing that's what we'd get with him going forward.

I suspect, though obviously we have no confirmation, that Jean and Scott will be in Hickman's flagship, with minor appearances elsewhere. At least I hope that's the case.

[Ulfhammer]

And here's why I strongly disagree with the idea some have that their problems, and Scott eventually getting closer and falling for Emma, were out of character. They were facing problems before, but the difference is that Scott's PTSD was even worse than what he had faced before, so he was more resistant than ever, while Jean was dealing with her own issues with the Phoenix rising again, so she had less incentive try to connect with him.

And at the same time Emma was the one making that push to connect with him (even if her motives weren't to help Jean at all), and it would make sense for him to open to her because not only she was the only one pushing it, would be hard for Scott to talk about marital and sexual issues about Jean when literally everyone on the team has wanted to sleep with Jean at some point- Beast, Logan, Xavier, throw Warren in there too, if you like. Emma was the one person that liked Scott, and only him, while everyone else, if push comes to shove, probably liked her more.

I both agree and disagree.

I think that Scott and Jean never get together in the Silver Age if it was left up to Scott alone. We know from experience that he responds to direct confrontations about his feelings. It was attention he clearly needed after his time with Apocalypse. So it makes some sense that he'd respond to Emma when approached that way. I can even buy that he didn't really know what he was getting into until he was over his head. It's what happened after that I don't buy.

Scott willingly diving head first into an affair with Emma is the part that doesn't track. Once he realized what was going on, I'd have expected him to get the hell out of that situation asap. He never really even considered doing that. Doesn't fit with some of his core traits. Even if he wanted to jump into that relationship, Scott's as uncomfortable in these situations as a long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs. It seems like he just said "screw it" and jumped in like Casanova. That's just not Scott.

The other element that doesn't track is Jean's disengagement. I get she had her own stuff going on, but that's not unusual for her. Awakening to find the world turned upside down in X-Factor #1, Jean puts a lot of attention into Scott. That's continues for nearly the rest of the O5's run on X-Factor. This despite the shock and adjustment to "coming back from the dead", finding out Scott's married and has a kid, and then having to deal with Inferno and all that came with it. I highly doubt her verily low key exposure to the PF in NXM (compared to the DPS for instance) would have been more emotionally or mentally consuming than the gamut she ran in X-Factor. Despite that, she couldn't bring herself to push Scott to say what needed to be said.

So to me, the basic premise of Scott being open to Emma's attention makes sense. It's the rest that doesn't track to their previous history. Morrison obviously wanted Scott in the worst place he'd ever been, and Jean to just sort of ignore the situation. What really should have happened is that she grabs him by the scruff of the neck and drags him out to that cabin they stayed in after OZT and just forces the truth out of him. She knows how he works and for them to continue with "business as usual", even after the cracks started to show just doesn't make sense. Well it does make sense if you're warping the characters to get to the outcome you want, which is what Morrison did.

[lurkerforyears]

Morrison didn't see telepathic sex as real sex, it's an idea that didnt work well, because it seems most fans do see it as real sex, or equivalent at least. For Morrison it must have been more on the "phone sex" level.
Remember the scene in which he makes Jean say "but they were thinking about it" I think Morrison's intention there was painting Jean in a bad light (not as a character, just a moment of weakness) as a telepath who punished others for thinking the wrong things, for thinking of f*cking her husband

[Ulfhammer]

It would be really bad if they just act like strangers. I don't want that
For all his mistakes Scott did miss Jean a lot while she was dead and Jean missed him, they also seemed to care a lot for the teenage version of the other..."

Right, and the adults just got those feels back didn't they? That's like remembering how it felt to fall in love with your long term lover all over again. Maybe that's why Scott's such a mess in Uncanny. Teenage hormones.

[Ulfhammer]

Morrison didn't see telepathic sex as real sex, it's an idea that didnt work well, because it seems most fans do see it as real sex, or equivalent at least. For Morrison it must have been more on the "phone sex" level.
Remember the scene in which he makes Jean say "but they were thinking about it" I think Morrison's intention there was painting Jean in a bad light (not as a character, just a moment of weakness) as a telepath who punished others for thinking the wrong things, for thinking of f*cking her husband

Well maybe if Morrison had Jean thinking more about f*cking her husband this all could have been avoided...

Kidding. IIRC Jean was hard up and Scott was awol. Or was that the other way around?

Come to think of it, a good roll in the hay probably would have saved their marriage. Some problems have such simple solutions, but some characters can't help but overthink things. In this at least, Emma knew just where the weak spot was.

[MechaJeanix]

If you go back and re-read Morrison's run you will see it was Scott who decided to be celibate and he was the one that wasn't touching Jean. Jean mentions how their relationship feels cold and he hadn't touched her in a while. Scott and Emma discussed his celibacy and he at one point tells Emma that it is "Jean or nothing" or something to that effect.

You cannot put the blame on Jean on their sexless relationship at that point. It was written as Scott's problem/issue.

Also, the best relationships are based on not sex or being an sex object for the other person but being friends. It will not be dumb for Scott and Jean to be friends considering all they have been through and all that they share. I think it will be perfect for them to start as friends and work their way from there (see Teen Jean and Tyke). They will likely build something between them but I do not expect them to go back to being married anytime soon.

[TheDeadSpace]

If you go back and re-read Morrison's run you will see it was Scott who decided to be celibate and he was the one that wasn't touching Jean. Jean mentions how their relationship feels cold and he hadn't touched her in a while. Scott and Emma discussed his celibacy and he at one point tells Emma that it is "Jean or nothing" or something to that effect.

You cannot put the blame on Jean on their sexless relationship at that point. It was written as Scott's problem/issue.

Also, the best relationships are based on not sex or being an sex object for the other person but being friends. It will not be dumb for Scott and Jean to be friends considering all they have been through and all that they share. I think it will be perfect for them to start as friends and work their way from there (see Teen Jean and Tyke). They will likely build something between them but I do not expect them to go back to being married anytime soon.

It wouldn't be weird for them to be friends, but it would be weird for them to accept only being friends considering their past. That's also part of the problem however, I don't think I want another redo of Tyke and Jeen with a slightly different interpretation. Starting up slow makes sense, but the build up to start shouldn't be a major issue.

[Ulfhammer]

If you go back and re-read Morrison's run you will see it was Scott who decided to be celibate and he was the one that wasn't touching Jean. Jean mentions how their relationship feels cold and he hadn't touched her in a while. Scott and Emma discussed his celibacy and he at one point tells Emma that it is "Jean or nothing" or something to that effect.

You cannot put the blame on Jean on their sexless relationship at that point. It was written as Scott's problem/issue.

Also, the best relationships are based on not sex or being an sex object for the other person but being friends. It will not be dumb for Scott and Jean to be friends considering all they have been through and all that they share. I think it will be perfect for them to start as friends and work their way from there (see Teen Jean and Tyke). They will likely build something between them but I do not expect them to go back to being married anytime soon.

I'm going to assume you took my very tongue in check response as serious. I know Scott was the cold shoulder there.

Obviously Jott is the poster child for a deep relationship that's primarily about their emotional connection and deep trust for each other. That said, Jean catches Scott in a quiet corner of the mansion wearing nothing but a smile, I'm guessing they make significant progress on their issues.

Come on. We can't take ourselves or them seriously all the time can we?

[MechaJeanix]

I'm going to assume you took my very tongue in check response as serious. I know Scott was the cold shoulder there.

Obviously Jott is the poster child for a deep relationship that's primarily about their emotional connection and deep trust for each other. That said, Jean catches Scott in a quiet corner of the mansion wearing nothing but a smile, I'm guessing they make significant progress on their issues.

Come on. We can't take ourselves or them seriously all the time can we?

I hate to say it but it is hard to tell on these forums when people are being serious or not. A lot of misinformation gets posted especially about certain runs. I just wanted to clarify for those who may not be familiar with what actually happened in the books.

[phoenixzero23]

https://lesbianjubilee.tumblr.com/po...-to-scott-jean
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Apparently today could have been Jean and Scott's aniversay.
It is surprising how most people don't even remember anything about their relationship outside of how it was screwed. There was a point were they were so in love that they decided to share their lives together and in a way they have always been related. From the very start of the franchice and through all it's story. Jean has always been one if not the most important character for Scott inside and outside the books and the same goes for Jean regarding Scott, I don't think there is a character with whom Jean has lived more experiences and for the longest time both on Marvel and on real time.

[FUBAR007]

So to me, the basic premise of Scott being open to Emma's attention makes sense. It's the rest that doesn't track to their previous history. Morrison obviously wanted Scott in the worst place he'd ever been, and Jean to just sort of ignore the situation. What really should have happened is that she grabs him by the scruff of the neck and drags him out to that cabin they stayed in after OZT and just forces the truth out of him. She knows how he works and for them to continue with "business as usual", even after the cracks started to show just doesn't make sense. Well it does make sense if you're warping the characters to get to the outcome you want, which is what Morrison did.

Or, she just restores the psychic rapport they'd previously shared for years (over a decade including their time in the future raising Nathan). And, with Xavier, who's been their mentor and trusted friend since they were teenagers, treats Scott for his PTSD.

But, that would've made sense.

[FUBAR007]

If you go back and re-read Morrison's run you will see it was Scott who decided to be celibate and he was the one that wasn't touching Jean. Jean mentions how their relationship feels cold and he hadn't touched her in a while. Scott and Emma discussed his celibacy and he at one point tells Emma that it is "Jean or nothing" or something to that effect.

You cannot put the blame on Jean on their sexless relationship at that point. It was written as Scott's problem/issue.

And yet, according to Morrison himself, his intent was the exact opposite:

[Tom DeFalco]: "In your mind, did Scott and Emma commit adultery?"

[Morrison]: "The way I saw it was that Jean and Scott had become remote. For me, the great emotional moment for Scott and Jean was when they ran out to die together on the moon during the Phoenix Saga. After Jean died, Scott ended up with a lot of other women. Scott was very attractive to women even though he didn't know it and I wanted to play around with that. Since he was becoming emotionally remote from Jean, because she was becoming more and more godlike, it just seemed like he would naturally fall into the arms of someone more emotionally connected, which Emma actually was. Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife any more. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else."

--from Comics Creators on X-Men by Tom DeFalco, p. 235

Morrison's intent was that Jean froze Scott out. But, the way he wrote it, it was Scott who froze Jean out.

Morrison didn't just botch Jott compared to how it'd been historically portrayed; he botched it compared to his own terms.

[Silver Fang]

And yet, according to Morrison himself, his intent was the exact opposite:

[Tom DeFalco]: "In your mind, did Scott and Emma commit adultery?"

[Morrison]: "The way I saw it was that Jean and Scott had become remote. For me, the great emotional moment for Scott and Jean was when they ran out to die together on the moon during the Phoenix Saga. After Jean died, Scott ended up with a lot of other women. Scott was very attractive to women even though he didn't know it and I wanted to play around with that. Since he was becoming emotionally remote from Jean, because she was becoming more and more godlike, it just seemed like he would naturally fall into the arms of someone more emotionally connected, which Emma actually was. Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife any more. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else."

--from Comics Creators on X-Men by Tom DeFalco, p. 235

Morrison's intent was that Jean froze Scott out. But, the way he wrote it, it was Scott who froze Jean out.

Morrison didn't just botch Jott compared to how it'd been historically portrayed; he botched it compared to his own terms.

Sad. I am not a fan of the characters of pairing, but even I hate Morrison as a writer for this. Jott was just fine before he came along, now all of a sudden it was a failing relationship that made no sense and only Emma could ever understand Scott.

Again, this "triangle" made all 3 characters look bad in some way. And I can only hope the Hickman era is kinder in terms of avoiding love drama that disservices all characters involved. It's hard to get into, care about, and root for pairings when it makes one or more characters look terrible.