Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[AHRNIHAL]

Thats...very terrifying. Would they have gone with this if X-factor hadnt happened?

Lol.
No.
Obviously no.

[Retcon]

Thanks for the information. I need to reread Inferno. I found alot of Maddie’s dialogue repetitive so I must have missed something. Maddie was the original Jott Troll. Literally.

[Glio]

At this point I begin to suspect that the Phoenix, as an entity, is in love with Scott.

Probably after impersonating Jean, her feelings towards Scott were contagious.

[Ulfhammer]

At this point I begin to suspect that the Phoenix, as an entity, is in love with Scott.

Probably after impersonating Jean, her feelings towards Scott were contagious.

That's not an unreasonable conclusion if you believe that what the Phoenix did during the DPS was impersonate Jean. The text doesn't definitively answer this questions but it does provide some clues, mostly in Inferno as to the nature of the Jean\Phoenix combination during the PS\DPS being much more than a matter of simple impersonation.

Maddie's final speech is enlightening in this regards. She says "I am what I am because you refused to take back what was rightfully yours." Jean's states in the same issue (X-Factor 38) that "It (the Pheonix) tries to return the portion of my... self that it has stolen away." Both statements clearly support the idea that the Phoenix has borrowed some aspects of Jean beyond simply her memories and physical body. There's clearly some element of Jean's soul or consciousness that the Phoenix assumed during it's time as Jean, which it attempts to return to Jean following it's "death" in UXM 137. An argument can be made that it's impossible to quantify how much of an influence this piece of Jean had on the Phoenix. The fact that it was important enough that the PF made multiple attempts to return it, if even to a proxy supports the idea that it wasn't an insignificant part of Jean.

Jean clearly already loved Scott before the Phoenix encounter in UXM 100. Once the Phoenix assumes Jean's identity, these feeling continue uninterrupted. I think it's entirely reasonable to assume the Phoenix inherits it's feelings for Scott from Jean rather then developing them independently. Another case for this is Endsong, where the Phoenix concludes that it's desire to experience the physical and reconnect with those important to Jean comes not from it but from her. This tells me that it's acting on Jean's feelings, not it's own, just as it did during the PS\DPS.

One more piece of evidence is that no character hosting the phoenix has ever started loving Scott romantically that didn't do so before. The most obvious case would be Rachel, but there are many others to choose from, including the balance of the P5.

The Phoenix clearly has a very special relationship with Jean, one that's been defined in contradictory ways over the years. I have no doubt it is sympathetic to her feelings and tends to channel them, including her feelings for Scott. That said, there's little to no evidence to support the idea that it loves Scott independently of Jean. If there's evidence for anything, it's that the Phoenix loves Jean.

[PsychoEFrost]

At this point I begin to suspect that the Phoenix, as an entity, is in love with Scott.

Probably after impersonating Jean, her feelings towards Scott were contagious.

Not exactly. The entity itself struggles with emotion without a host. Her first Earth host was a hyper reserved pacifist. But Jean was such a mass of emotion that she started taking that as her own. That includes Jean's love for Scott.

[FUBAR007]

That's not an unreasonable conclusion if you believe that what the Phoenix did during the DPS was impersonate Jean. The text doesn't definitively answer this questions but it does provide some clues, mostly in Inferno as to the nature of the Jean\Phoenix combination during the PS\DPS being much more than a matter of simple impersonation.

There's Byrne's version (Fantastic Four #286) in which Phoenix copied and replaced Jean.

And, there's Claremont's version (Classic X-Men #8) in which Phoenix absorbed a piece of Jean's soul. Unsurprisingly, "Inferno" leans toward this version since it was co-written by Claremont.

All of which stems from Byrne and Claremont's disagreement over the nature of Phoenix. Byrne intended it to be evil; Claremont intended it to be good. Byrne wanted Jean and Phoenix to be separate characters with the Phoenix being a space demon that possessed Jean. Claremont wanted Jean and Phoenix to be the same being with Jean as merely the Phoenix's human incarnation.

Maddie's final speech is enlightening in this regards. She says "I am what I am because you refused to take back what was rightfully yours." Jean's states in the same issue (X-Factor 38) that "It (the Pheonix) tries to return the portion of my... self that it has stolen away." Both statements clearly support the idea that the Phoenix has borrowed some aspects of Jean beyond simply her memories and physical body. There's clearly some element of Jean's soul or consciousness that the Phoenix assumed during it's time as Jean, which it attempts to return to Jean following it's "death" in UXM 137. An argument can be made that it's impossible to quantify how much of an influence this piece of Jean had on the Phoenix. The fact that it was important enough that the PF made multiple attempts to return it, if even to a proxy supports the idea that it wasn't an insignificant part of Jean.

IMO, "Inferno" resolved all that coherently. Madelyne and "Phoenix-Jean" were reintegrated with Jean, memories, emotions, and all. Claremont's vision was partially achieved, and they were all one person: Jean.

But, then, Terry Kavanagh later decided to bring Evil!Maddie back, and things went downhill from there.

[Glio]

I know it is not canon, but in Planet X it is discussed what we are talking about, that Scott and the Phoenix were romantically connected.

And when Scott rejoined the Phoenix in Secret Wars, he called their relationship "love." It is evident that Jean has a unique bond with the Phoenix but I believe that through her, Scott developed one as well.

I do not know, the Phoenix always seems to do things that benefit Scott, like in DPS sacrificing herself so the Imperial Guard does not kill him, saving the mutant race, protecting him from Xavier ... even if it's not something Scott wants. Perhaps the concept is not romantic love but simply "love". I do not know if the Phoenix can even distinguish them.

Whatever it is, after Secret Wars and AvsX, Scott and Jean should now understand each other much better in that regard. Scott himself says as he transforms into Dark Phoenix that he now understands what Jean felt.

[PrezValentine]

Nobody:
The PF: I feel like boning that one-eyed bastard.

[Snoop Dogg]

Kentucky Fried Cheesy Force: Am I a dom or a sub? Tell me, strapping laser eye man!

[PsychoEFrost]

Nobody:
The PF: I feel like boning that one-eyed bastard.

Who doesn't want to lay an egg that shoots lasers?

[Anodyne]

Shooter specifically devised X-Factor's debut to be outside Claremont's purview because he knew Claremont wouldn't agree with it. CC is on the record as having been entirely against both Jean's resurrection and Scott leaving Maddie. This is a clear both from the issues in question as well as multiple interviews. If you have new information we haven't seen I'd be the first to welcome it, but otherwise Claremont's perspective that Scott belonged with Maddie and Jean was better off dead will stand. Maddie and Scott's marriage was in shambles by X-Factor #1 and that's not a matter of opinion. Frankly it was pretty bad off even before then due to Scott's belief that Maddie was somehow Jean reincarnated, which I get so the obvious parallels between the two.

I didn't say Claremont approved of X-Factor. I said he was ordered (IMHO) to make trouble between Scott and Maddie to prepare for X-Factor.

Well the whole Maddie looking like Jean in the beginning was stupid anyways. Claremont didn't get the original ending be wanted for the Dark Phoenix saga and then came up with Maddy. Then I feel like when they brought Jean back, that screwed that up and seems like he's had a vendetta against Scott ever since. I could not stomach that x-men forever storyline where Jean ends up with Logan and then Beast. I could deal with the Logan part, but then beast then be died too. I was joking around who is next,sabertooth? Lol

*Sigh* If only Claremont had made the Jean/Madelyne resemblance an illusion cast by Mastermind.
[QUOTE=Havok83;4314148]They were still in the honeymoon phase in that crossover as it took place not much longer after the wedding. I actually think that story was what was the beginning of the end for them as it reminded him what it meant to be an X-man. He missed the adventure. He got pulled back and was not there for Maddie when she gave birth bc he was off being a hero. He tried to be a leader again despite her objections. By the time we see him in Xfactor, he’s unhappy bc leading a mundane family life took its toll on him and he’d rather be a superhero, making a difference in the world. The trajectory made sense to me and didn’t come out of left field. I don’t believe he’d have ever been able to truly be happy with Maddie. He had to deny a core aspect of himself to be with her and that rarely ends up well.
QUOTE].
When Maddie accepted Scott's proposal, she was prepared to go into outer space with him if he accepted his father's invitation to join the Starjammers. As far as she knew, the X-Men were a cherished part of his past. I don't recall his telling her during their courtship that he wanted to return to the team.

By the way, whenever I read "Scott abandoned Maddie" I like to remark that if they call me and they say that my dead girlfriend has risen I would also like to go and say hello.

Scott did badly but Maddie was not understanding either, giving him an ultimatum. To say that Scott abandoned Maddie for Jean is to simplify, his plan was to go, see and come back but he was stuck for a week with X-Factor and when he came back Maddie had already disappeared and Scott was cold with Jean out of respect for his marriage . People talk as if Scott had spit Maddie in the face and thrown himself into Jean's arms.

Would you deceive your current spouse or lover by letting him or her think you were merely going to see an old pal? Maddie didn't learn about Jean's return until much later. And by Scott's own later admission, his only "plan" when he left home was to get to Jean as fast as possible. He wasn't thinking of what he'd do about his marriage. As for Maddie's behavior, I don't see her "Don't bother coming back!" as an ultimatum; I see it as an outburst of temper at a husband who'd suddenly about-faced from "We'll work things out" to "I have to go."

It was more than a week. I think 2 weeks passed within X-Factor 1. It was more like 1-2 months by thxe time he actually went back to Alaska. He definitely handled that poorly, but didnt leave Maddie for Jean as you mention

Do you really believe Scott would have left his wife and child with no warning if he hadn't been told that Jean was back? I don't.

Okay, I was wrong, I think it took less time to call but Maddie did not take it (because she was already gone)

In X-Factor #1, two weeks passed between one panel and the next. The last panel of the issue showed Madelyne alone, staring at the TV. In X-Factor #2, Scott admitted (to Warren, IIRC) that he still hadn't called his wife.

[Havok83]

When Maddie accepted Scott's proposal, she was prepared to go into outer space with him if he accepted his father's invitation to join the Starjammers. As far as she knew, the X-Men were a cherished part of his past. I don't recall his telling her during their courtship that he wanted to return to the team.



Do you really believe Scott would have left his wife and child with no warning if he hadn't been told that Jean was back? I don't.

he met Mddie not long after he left the team to deal with Jean's death. IMO he was in a vulnerable state. He may have thought the X-men were a part of his past, but clearly that wasnt the case as he was drawn back to that after the marriage. He missed it.

And no, he wouldnt have left Alaska had he not heard Jean was alive. That was the entire premise for it and it was justified. He left to see her, not to be with her which is what people always seem to imply, ignoring all the context and actual story around his actions when he was around Jean. He didnt pursue a relationship with Jean until months later after having Maddie presumed dead twice

[Anodyne]

he met Mddie not long after he left the team to deal with Jean's death. IMO he was in a vulnerable state. He may have thought the X-men were a part of his past, but clearly that wasnt the case as he was drawn back to that after the marriage. He missed it.

And no, he wouldnt have left Alaska had he not heard Jean was alive. That was the entire premise for it and it was justified. He left to see her, not to be with her which is what people always seem to imply, ignoring all the context and actual story around his actions when he was around Jean. He didnt pursue a relationship with Jean until months later after having Maddie presumed dead twice

Actually, Jean had been gone more than a year when Scott met Madelyne. Kitty Pryde fought an N'garai demon on Christmas Eve in Uncanny #163; and Kurt Wagner and Amanda Sefton were seen celebrating another Christmas Eve in Uncanny #168--the very issue in which Scott and Madelyne met.

I still fault Scott for not telling Maddie about Jean's return; IMHO it would have been completely natural for him to blurt out "Jean's alive!" Maddie would probably have been upset, but she would at least have had a chance to deal with the situation before she got ambushed by a demon.

[Havok83]

Actually, Jean had been gone more than a year when Scott met Madelyne. Kitty Pryde fought an N'garai demon on Christmas Eve in Uncanny #163; and Kurt Wagner and Amanda Sefton were seen celebrating another Christmas Eve in Uncanny #168--the very issue in which Scott and Madelyne met.

I still fault Scott for not telling Maddie about Jean's return; IMHO it would have been completely natural for him to blurt out "Jean's alive!" Maddie would probably have been upset, but she would at least have had a chance to deal with the situation before she got ambushed by a demon.

I dont really take holiday issues as a canon passage of time bc of the sliding time scale. Regardless, Jean was a major figure in his life and I dont think he was completely over her by the time he met Maddie. Her looking exactly like Jean and Scott thinking she was, kinda supports that. Even though he had quit the X-men, he still kept getting drawn back within that year so it wasnt exactly in his past

You are right. Scott should have been more transparent

[Gray Lensman]

I dont really take holiday issues as a canon passage of time bc of the sliding time scale. Regardless, Jean was a major figure in his life and I dont think he was completely over her by the time he met Maddie. Her looking exactly like Jean and Scott thinking she was, kinda supports that. Even though he had quit the X-men, he still kept getting drawn back within that year so it wasnt exactly in his past

You are right. Scott should have been more transparent

There was, however, the entire relationship with Lee Forrester between Jean's death and Maddie's intro. Which to me makes Claremont's writing seem even more ham-handed. Things didn't work out with Lee because she wasn't willing to deal with the Super Hero life, but after she not only hooks up with Magneto (who was trying to be more heroic at that time), but Scott leaves it all behind for Maddie - even if it was reluctant. It comes across as ignoring characterization for both of them, and he was the guy who wrote it. And we complain about Bendis not being able to respect continuity.