Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[TheCape]

Are you talking about the characters or the readers?

Readers. Scott has recieved **** in the last few years in-universe, but none of that has to do with the affair.

[FUBAR007]

I don't. Scott made mistakes. Jean made mistakes. You can argue the relative impact of those mistakes but that's truly irrelevant to the idea that Scott isn't worthy. There's really only two options here. Either Jean is just as human and flawed as Scott or she's not human and not flawed, and therefore perfect. If she's perfect than no one is worthy or her.

As fans of the couple we need to accept that the choices they've made may not always seem right, but there's context to every "sin". True love, if such a thing exists, must accept the failings of the other person or or it was never "true" to begin with.

The other argument is that all failings are relative and Scott can easily be judged as unworthy because his failings effected Jean the most, and his greatest failings were with her. You can make that argument. The problem is that objectively the argument is irrelevant to "worthiness". Scott's character, when taking as a whole across his entire history is that of an unmitigated hero, selflessly serving his friends, family, comrades and world at large with a will and resolve arguably unrivaled within the context of the X-Men.

Yes, he's fallen short, time and again. That was true before Morrison and it will be true in the future. Despite his failings, he persists to try to be the best man he can and do the best he can for those he cares about. He does so free of pride and without ever considering personal gain, and each failure is a weight he forever carries. It's that aspect of Scott that I believe Jean fell in love with and that's what makes him worthy for her.

Wow, did this fire up the thread...

I said I understand the sentiment that Scott is no longer worthy of Jean. I didn't say I agree with that sentiment.

Anyway, Jean's already forgiven him. The affair is water under the bridge. What's left now is for them to get back together and back on track.

[FUBAR007]

SO much posted here that I just fundamentally disagree with. Scott has ALWAYS been this self loathing, insecure character? Just simply not true. HEY rendered the affair noot? Uh, no. Morrison's Scott was so screwed up in the head that he isn't responsible for the affair because he couldn't tell right from wrong? He had been deeply traumatized, as many, many heroes had over the years, he wasn't a walking basket case.

You and Ulfhammer are both right. It depends on at what point in Scott's history you're talking about.

Unfortunately, Scott's character development hasn't been linear and progressive but cyclical. Scott starts out insecure, matures through decision and action, becomes cool, confident, and adult...then some new writer comes in, hits the reset button, and tears him back down again. Claremont did a soft version of this in the mid-70s, having Scott stay with the X-Men when the rest of the O5--including Jean--left because he supposedly couldn't envision life as a civilian. This ignored much of Scott's Silver Age development arc such as when he and Jean got real jobs and normal(-ish) lives when the X-Men briefly broke up. Claremont then spent a decade building Scott up again, culminating in his marriage to Madelyne and semi-retirement in Alaska.

Then, along came Bob Layton and the launch of X-Factor. Layton used Jean's resurrection to give Scott a nervous breakdown and regress his character back to a neurotic, insecure mess. Louise Simonson, and later on Scott Lobdell and Fabian Nicieza, altogether spent another decade building Cyke back up, including his marriage to Jean, raising Nathan in the future, and ultimately sacrificing himself to stop Apocalypse.

Then, along came Grant Morrison and the launch of New X-Men. Morrison used Scott's merger to Apocalypse to give Scott another nervous breakdown and regress his character back to a neurotic, insecure mess. Morrison, Whedon, and later writers spent yet another decade rebuilding him, this time with Emma at his side, as both Xavier and Magneto's successor as the leader of mutantkind, culminating in "AvX".

Then, along came Brian Bendis and a relaunch of Uncanny X-Men. Bendis used Scott's possession by the Phoenix and Xavier's subsequent death to give Scott yet another nervous breakdown and regress his character back to a neurotic, insecure mess. This time, instead of building him back up again, Marvel decided to kill him off in Death of X.

Now, a new creative team has brought Scott back, presumably with the intent of rebuilding him...again.

In theory, Scott's supposed to be the X-Men franchise's answer to Captain America: the loyal commander and soldier, the faithful leader and exemplar, the success story of a lonely orphan finding self-fulfillment in a worthy cause and, as a result, becoming a strong, respected leader of men. In practice, however, Scott has been treated more as the franchise's answer to Hank Pym: a well-intentioned man of remarkable and unique ability, but with severe psychological problems and a tendency to periodically self-destruct. Similarly, there are at a broad level parallels between Scott and Jean's relationship and Pym's relationship with the Wasp.

[FUBAR007]

Here's what I don't get:

Every X-Men member has killed at least a dozen people. Wolverine's kill count is somewhere in the 30,000 people range. Beast and Xavier killed billions during their time with the Illuminati, as did Black Panther and Namor. Cable and Bishop and Hope have absurd kill numbers. Most of the X-Men would rank among the most prolific serial killers by our world's stats.

Yet apparently the worst thing ever is Scott kind of sort of cheating on Jean.

That's just absurd to me.

Speaking only for myself, the body counts that Wolverine, Beast, Xavier, Namor, and Bishop have been made responsible for post-2001 have done tremendous damage to the characters and, IMO, made them non-viable as heroic protagonists without some heavy duty retconning. Bishop should be dead. Namor should've been tried for war crimes and executed. With all the things Logan has been retconned into being responsible for, he's now little better than Sabretooth. Xavier's retconning into a villain makes the Institute and the X-Men's continued existence as an organization nonsensical.

I don't discuss their situations much because few others in this forum seem to care. But, yes, what those characters have done is far worse than Scott's affair with Emma.

Personally, the affair hit hard for me because Scott and Jean have always been my favorite X-Men characters and their relationship my favorite romance. It's not that my moral outrage over the affair is greater; it's that my emotional attachment to Scott and Jean is greater.

[MechaJeanix]

You and Ulfhammer are both right. It depends on at what point in Scott's history you're talking about.

Unfortunately, Scott's character development hasn't been linear and progressive but cyclical. Scott starts out insecure, matures through decision and action, becomes cool, confident, and adult...then some new writer comes in, hits the reset button, and tears him back down again. Claremont did a soft version of this in the mid-70s, having Scott stay with the X-Men when the rest of the O5--including Jean--left because he supposedly couldn't envision life as a civilian. This ignored much of Scott's Silver Age development arc such as when he and Jean got real jobs and normal(-ish) lives when the X-Men briefly broke up. Claremont then spent a decade building Scott up again, culminating in his marriage to Madelyne and semi-retirement in Alaska.

Then, along came Bob Layton and the launch of X-Factor. Layton used Jean's resurrection to give Scott a nervous breakdown and regress his character back to a neurotic, insecure mess. Louise Simonson, and later on Scott Lobdell and Fabian Nicieza, altogether spent another decade building Cyke back up, including his marriage to Jean, raising Nathan in the future, and ultimately sacrificing himself to stop Apocalypse.

Then, along came Grant Morrison and the launch of New X-Men. Morrison used Scott's merger to Apocalypse to give Scott another nervous breakdown and regress his character back to a neurotic, insecure mess. Morrison, Whedon, and later writers spent yet another decade rebuilding him, this time with Emma at his side, as both Xavier and Magneto's successor as the leader of mutantkind, culminating in "AvX".

Then, along came Brian Bendis and a relaunch of Uncanny X-Men. Bendis used Scott's possession by the Phoenix and Xavier's subsequent death to give Scott yet another nervous breakdown and regress his character back to a neurotic, insecure mess. This time, instead of building him back up again, Marvel decided to kill him off in Death of X.

Now, a new creative team has brought Scott back, presumably with the intent of rebuilding him...again.

In theory, Scott's supposed to be the X-Men franchise's answer to Captain America: the loyal commander and soldier, the faithful leader and exemplar, the success story of a lonely orphan finding self-fulfillment in a worthy cause and, as a result, becoming a strong, respected leader of men. In practice, however, Scott has been treated more as the franchise's answer to Hank Pym: a well-intentioned man of remarkable and unique ability, but with severe psychological problems and a tendency to periodically self-destruct. Similarly, there are at a broad level parallels between Scott and Jean's relationship and Pym's relationship with the Wasp.

Characters progress only to regress and to do it all over again. Cyke is a clear example and so are Angel, Jean, etc. It is a limitation of ongoing soap operas. We tell the same stories over and over again. At least all the iconic characters have themes that have become essential elements of the characters (for example with Jean there is her powers, the phoenix, her love stories).

I loved Morrison's version of Cyclops and I did enjoy Whedon, but felt Whedon set Cyke back a little from his Morrison characterization to build him up again in his run. We will see this again probably in Rosenberg's run. Cyclops will remake himself and set a new path, and will make amends for past failures/mistakes/regrets.

[phoenixzero23]

Wow, did this fire up the thread...

I said I understand the sentiment that Scott is no longer worthy of Jean. I didn't say I agree with that sentiment.

Anyway, Jean's already forgiven him. The affair is water under the bridge. What's left now is for them to get back together and back on track.

The problem is not Jean. These characters do what the writers and editors want, they will dumb each other, love each other or love other people. they don't own their lives and their feelings are dictated by what a writer thinks is cool.

The important part is to make fans forgive Scott. I'm a Jean fan who loves starcrossed lovers, for me Scott is Jean's soul mate and nobody else can play that card to her but the problem is that for other fans scott and jott are defined by the affair, not the epic love story, not the long time they lasted, nothing more. Which sucks i think the relationships and characters really deserved better than that mess.
Like no other romance they have will reach as far, last longer or have classic stories like them. is pretty difficult to top jott.

[Gray Lensman]

Wow, did this fire up the thread...

I said I understand the sentiment that Scott is no longer worthy of Jean. I didn't say I agree with that sentiment.

Anyway, Jean's already forgiven him. The affair is water under the bridge. What's left now is for them to get back together and back on track.

To be honest, I'm reasonably certain that Scott will feel this way. It's probably the most organic way to stretch things out that the writers have available to them.

[PrezValentine]

Thinking of himself as unworthy of Jean will most likely be his default characterization. Can't blame Scott, low self-esteem/depression will do that to someone. Which is one of the many reasons I can't see them coming back together. If that's really how he sees himself, and Jean is shown trying to get him out of this, her fans will keep the idea that he's toxic to her and she shouldn't be with him since he can't work out his own issues and will be dead weight for her.

Which is why I'd rather have him move on and why I brought up the point, in the old thread, that a reconciliation between them would eventually be used to portray Scott as abusive and toxic to Jean, almost Hank Pym style. Thanks to Fubar for reminding me of that, btw.

[Snoop Dogg]

Thinking of himself as unworthy of Jean will most likely be his default characterization. Can't blame Scott, low self-esteem/depression will do that to someone. Which is one of the many reasons I can't see them coming back together.

You underestimate the power of the wun troo luv fallacy.

Speaking of Pym, though, it's better for a character to be closer to the Pym side of the spectrum, the complex Marvel character side, than the Cap side of the spectrum, the more classical DC character side. And in regards to old romances coming back or not, the way Hank and Jan split off at the end of that original Shooter arc was reeaaaal good.

[TheCape]

Speaking only for myself, the body counts that Wolverine, Beast, Xavier, Namor, and Bishop have been made responsible for post-2001 have done tremendous damage to the characters and, IMO, made them non-viable as heroic protagonists without some heavy duty retconning. Bishop should be dead. Namor should've been tried for war crimes and executed. With all the things Logan has been retconned into being responsible for, he's now little better than Sabretooth. Xavier's retconning into a villain makes the Institute and the X-Men's continued existence as an organization nonsensical.

I don't discuss their situations much because few others in this forum seem to care. But, yes, what those characters have done is far worse than Scott's affair with Emma.

Personally, the affair hit hard for me because Scott and Jean have always been my favorite X-Men characters and their relationship my favorite romance. It's not that my moral outrage over the affair is greater; it's that my emotional attachment to Scott and Jean is greater.

This is true, honestly, especially for Wolverine, Bishop and Xavier. But as you said, most in this forums are pretty indifferent to those characthers, the bulk of people here are Rigthclops brigade, Storm Acolytes and Jean Grey's cult .

Speaking for myself, i had a hard time enjoying any Wolverine comic after Daniel Way disaster.

[wano]

This is true, honestly, especially for Wolverine, Bishop and Xavier. But as you said, most in this forums are pretty indifferent to those characthers, the bulk of people here are Rigthclops brigade, Storm Acolytes and Jean Grey's cult .

Speaking for myself, i had a hard time enjoying any Wolverine comic after Daniel Way disaster.

Why did Daniel way did?

Also the RightClops brigade was born in response to the attempts by marvel editorial and writers and some fans to demonize cyclops for his actions before and during AvX

[TheCape]

Why did Daniel way did?

Also the RightClops brigade was born in response to the attempts by marvel editorial and writers and some fans to demonize cyclops for his actions before and during AvX

Writting the worst Wolverine run in the story of the characther. Wolverine Origins #26 has the worst crime that Logan ever comitted and the fact that Marvel allowed that to be published is nothing short of amazing, they broke the toy.

Can't really blame then for that to be honest.

[FUBAR007]

Characters progress only to regress and to do it all over again. Cyke is a clear example and so are Angel, Jean, etc. It is a limitation of ongoing soap operas. We tell the same stories over and over again.

Which IMO is pointless in the age of easily acquired TPB collections of past stories.

It's not a limitation of ongoing soap operas (soap opera characters actually age!) but rather a self-imposed convention of superhero comics. It made sense back when new comics were easily available on every newsstand and older stories (i.e. back issues) had to be deliberately tracked down. Nobody cared about continuity except collectors who, unlike most readers, didn't throw their comics away after reading them a few times. I get what you're saying, but those days are over, and the "illusion of change" convention is obsolete.

The undiscovered storytelling country for decades-old characters like Scott and Jean is what happens once the progression/regression cycle is broken, and the characters finally grow up and move forward with their lives. It can be done--Roy Thomas and Geoff Johns got decades' worth of stories out of the JSA growing older, marrying and having children, training the next generation, and shaping their legacies. Because mutants are born with their powers, the X-Men are tailor-made for showing generations of characters age and evolve.

I want to see Scott and Jean get their **** together and build their own vision of Xavier's dream. I want to see them have more children together and read the stories of those children growing into the next generation of X-Men (or not).* I want to see the older characters mature into "elder statesmen" and younger characters age into their former roles. When Magneto finally dies, who takes his place? Who fills the vacuum left by Apocalypse and Bastion and all the other bad guys? What about mutants who have their own vision for mutants' future, separate from Xavier and Magneto's?

There's so much untapped potential to explore, but it just...sits there. Because Marvel won't go there. Sigh.

*Yes, I've read Genext. It was just a drop in the bucket of what I'm talking about.

[FUBAR007]

Speaking of Pym, though, it's better for a character to be closer to the Pym side of the spectrum, the complex Marvel character side, than the Cap side of the spectrum, the more classical DC character side.

The problem is that you can only go through the progression/regression cycle so many times before the characters come off as absurd, incompetent fools. For the characters to work in the long run, and for the drama of their stories to hold their emotional weight, the characters have to learn and grow, not just temporarily seem to.

[lurkerforyears]

Speaking only for myself, the body counts that Wolverine, Beast, Xavier, Namor, and Bishop have been made responsible for post-2001 have done tremendous damage to the characters and, IMO, made them non-viable as heroic protagonists without some heavy duty retconning. Bishop should be dead. Namor should've been tried for war crimes and executed. With all the things Logan has been retconned into being responsible for, he's now little better than Sabretooth. Xavier's retconning into a villain makes the Institute and the X-Men's continued existence as an organization nonsensical.

I don't discuss their situations much because few others in this forum seem to care. But, yes, what those characters have done is far worse than Scott's affair with Emma.

Personally, the affair hit hard for me because Scott and Jean have always been my favorite X-Men characters and their relationship my favorite romance. It's not that my moral outrage over the affair is greater; it's that my emotional attachment to Scott and Jean is greater.

I think it's about relateability. Normal people can relate to cheating, but find it hard to relate to killing in huge numbers.
It's similar to how people tend to be more outraged when it's discovered a politician stole 50.000 dollars, than when a politician steals hundreds of millions. The first number is more concrete, you can picture it, and it fits in a bag.