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  1. #1801
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    Loved your take on New X-men Ulfhammer. Lots of thought obviously went into it, and upon reflection, I can definitely see what Morrison had intended.
    Thank you. I hope I was able to provide some perspective. After going so long without reading large chunks of the run together, you see things you've forgotten. I strongly encourage anyone who has strong opinions on who they think was at fault to reread 116 specifically. As I said in my post, I think it's pretty clear that Morrison intended Jean to be less sympathetic here but of course there's enough blame for everyone. Jean's response to Scott talking about being possessed is hysterical, if of course one forgets that she's trying to downplay the DPS to Scott.

    Best line though is Logan's "Man's gotta mow his own lawn." Good stuff.

  2. #1802
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    If anything it was Scott that was cold and distant with Jean. She tried to talk to him but he shut her out and said to "just read my mind". Jean didn't accept that because it was the easy way out. Scott was also cruel to Jean when he implied he had slept with Emma in Hong Kong. Scott said he didn't sleep with her that they were up all night (something to this effect and he was clearly messing with Jean). There was also that scene written by Joe Casey where Jean tells Scott she loves him and he's all "love you, wife" and in the panel he seemed distant with her.
    I think this depends a lot on which Scott we're talking about. If we're talking about the Scott we knew prior to the end the the Twelve arc, I'd tend to agree. If you're talking about Morrison's Scott, I'm not sure I can get on board. Morrison's Scott was deeply unraveled when it came to Jean, and the foundational elements of their relationship had been entirely stripped away. Scott at the best of times struggled with communicating his feelings. This was not the best of times.

    If your partner has a broken leg and asks for help to stand, do you say "do it yourself" or do you offer them a hand? That's really what Scott is doing in that conversation in 116 and Jean has been more than comfortable reading Scott's mind to understand what's going on with him in the past. It was part of Jean accepting Scott for who he was. Just as I think Morrison redefined Scott, I think he redefined Jean as well.

    As for the comment in reference to Hong Kong, I just think that's Scott being clueless. He's not really the type to screw with people.


    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    I think they will do great as teammates and close friends. It is possible to remain close friends with an ex. It doesn't have to be weird. Plenty of folks do it. I know some of us will never be happy with that. I do think eventually they will be brought back together.
    Of course they will. That's how they started, and they've never quit being that. They're friends first kind of lovers anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    Scott and Jean can still love each other and not be together romantically. This is a thing also. Scott can love both Jean and Emma at the same time. It doesn't mean he gets to be with them both but it is possible to care deeply for more than one person (and yes I mean romantically).
    Of course they can, but why would they. I've seen this opinion before but I've never heard why you think two people who are both free and very much in love should just ignore those feelings. What kind of curmudgeony talk is this? I'm fine with them taking their time sure, but to just right off decades of history together because of what essentially came down to bad humors and an inappropriate wet dream seems a little over the top.

    Do you really think they are better off apart? I'd love to hear your reasoning for that, even if it might cut the grain of this thread somewhat.

  3. #1803
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    I would like that but i doubt it will happen.
    I'm not saying they'll be back together. (Unless Hickman proves me wrong, I'm sticking with my Pym/Wasp-style "friendly ex-es" expectation for the foreseeable future.)

    I'm just saying they won't be picking up from a point of hostility and resentment.
    Last edited by FUBAR007; 06-20-2019 at 06:50 AM.

  4. #1804
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    PR wrapped things up too nicely and it was rather convenenient considering Jean had JUST returned and Scott died. Neither had to really deal with their issues bc they were only around each other for like 10 minutes. I dont think thins are really resolved and they do need to have a conversation about Morrison's run
    I broadly agree.

    Marvel doesn't. Between PR and the X-Men Red Annual, Marvel has moved on and doesn't appear to be interested in dealing with this in any depth.

  5. #1805
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfhammer View Post
    I think this depends a lot on which Scott we're talking about. If we're talking about the Scott we knew prior to the end the the Twelve arc, I'd tend to agree. If you're talking about Morrison's Scott, I'm not sure I can get on board. Morrison's Scott was deeply unraveled when it came to Jean, and the foundational elements of their relationship had been entirely stripped away. Scott at the best of times struggled with communicating his feelings. This was not the best of times.

    If your partner has a broken leg and asks for help to stand, do you say "do it yourself" or do you offer them a hand? That's really what Scott is doing in that conversation in 116 and Jean has been more than comfortable reading Scott's mind to understand what's going on with him in the past. It was part of Jean accepting Scott for who he was. Just as I think Morrison redefined Scott, I think he redefined Jean as well.
    ...all of which would've been avoided if Jean had reestablished the psychic rapport.

    Of course they can, but why would they. I've seen this opinion before but I've never heard why you think two people who are both free and very much in love should just ignore those feelings. What kind of curmudgeony talk is this? I'm fine with them taking their time sure, but to just right off decades of history together because of what essentially came down to bad humors and an inappropriate wet dream seems a little over the top.

    Do you really think they are better off apart? I'd love to hear your reasoning for that, even if it might cut the grain of this thread somewhat.
    There is a contingent of fans who, for whatever reason, very, very badly want to see Scott and Jean as friendly ex-es. MechaJeanix is one of them. In particular, they want to see Scott and Jean both paired off with other people yet still remain close friends with each other. Maybe Morrison successfully sold them on the notion that Scott and Jean are best friends who shouldn't be together sexually/romantically.

    Personally, I don't understand the appeal of such a scenario, and it makes no sense given the characters' history. But then, I'm a rock-ribbed Jott shipper.

  6. #1806
    Incredible Member RachelGrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    ...all of which would've been avoided if Jean had reestablished the psychic rapport.



    There is a contingent of fans who, for whatever reason, very, very badly want to see Scott and Jean as friendly ex-es. MechaJeanix is one of them. In particular, they want to see Scott and Jean both paired off with other people yet still remain close friends with each other. Maybe Morrison successfully sold them on the notion that Scott and Jean are best friends who shouldn't be together sexually/romantically.

    Personally, I don't understand the appeal of such a scenario, and it makes no sense given the characters' history. But then, I'm a rock-ribbed Jott shipper.
    I think there is room for lots of ongoing story involving Scott and Jean. I don't see them immediately getting back together, but they may start dating occasionally to see if they can get the spark back. More than anything I really want to see Jean and Scott interacting with Cable and Rachel on an ongoing basis. I think ideally for me it would work best if Rachel decides to work with Cable all the time, so when they do interact with their parents they can both be there. This is what I was hoping years ago when Rachel reappeared at the tail end of Cable Vol 1 to help Cable with the Sisterhood, I was hoping that Rachel and Cable would stay partners because it would make it easier for them to interact together with their parents.

    I would love to see another 5 issue mini where Jean, Scott, Cable, and Rachel have to do a mission together, that would be pretty awesome to see the Summers/Grey family all re-united again.

  7. #1807
    Incredible Member KangMiRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    ...all of which would've been avoided if Jean had reestablished the psychic rapport.



    There is a contingent of fans who, for whatever reason, very, very badly want to see Scott and Jean as friendly ex-es. MechaJeanix is one of them. In particular, they want to see Scott and Jean both paired off with other people yet still remain close friends with each other. Maybe Morrison successfully sold them on the notion that Scott and Jean are best friends who shouldn't be together sexually/romantically.

    Personally, I don't understand the appeal of such a scenario, and it makes no sense given the characters' history. But then, I'm a rock-ribbed Jott shipper.
    Yeah, it's really weird. Most of the time they're hardcore Jean fans and not so much Scott fans

    I think they're just settlers who know Jean's character revolves around Scott and they can't get her away from him so they're hoping they just become ex-es and friends instead of the couple they've always meant to be. Just weird. It's like backhanded support for Jott. Really, really weird. I question their love for Jott!
    Captain of many ships—no matter how much you hate it!
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  8. #1808
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post

    I would love to see another 5 issue mini where Jean, Scott, Cable, and Rachel have to do a mission together, that would be pretty awesome to see the Summers/Grey family all re-united again.
    I would really like that too. I always felt like there is so much unexplored and wasted potential between these characters.
    Ranking of favorite characters
    Phoenix/Jean, Cyclops, Wolverine, Storm

    These characters are not real and nobody loves each other for real. They will dump and love people even if it makes no sense just to for the sake of it.
    My ships: Jean/Scott, Wanda/Vision, Scott/Logan, Rogue/Gambit, Storm/Black Panther.

  9. #1809
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    If anything it was Scott that was cold and distant with Jean. She tried to talk to him but he shut her out and said to "just read my mind". Jean didn't accept that because it was the easy way out. Scott was also cruel to Jean when he implied he had slept with Emma in Hong Kong. Scott said he didn't sleep with her that they were up all night (something to this effect and he was clearly messing with Jean). There was also that scene written by Joe Casey where Jean tells Scott she loves him and he's all "love you, wife" and in the panel he seemed distant with her.

    Scott was having a hard time due to his merger with Apocalypse. He didn't think Jean or Professor X would understand because possession was an occupational hazard for telepaths. He also feared Jean's judgement. He became celibate and Jean became isolated in the relationship. It was a complicated issue for them both, and one neither handled particularly well.

    That made their relationship real in my opinion. Relationships are tough and aren't the Disney "one true love/pairing" b.s. that we are fed in the media. I'm sorry to burst any bubbles. Real life relationships are very complex and full of both ups and downs. There are plenty of downs because it takes a lot of work to even keep a relationship going. Scott and Jean have a complex history and their relationship reflected this fact.

    I think they will do great as teammates and close friends. It is possible to remain close friends with an ex. It doesn't have to be weird. Plenty of folks do it. I know some of us will never be happy with that. I do think eventually they will be brought back together. They are the Luke and Laura of the X-men (probably a bad analogy considering their history and how they ended up).

    Scott and Jean can still love each other and not be together romantically. This is a thing also. Scott can love both Jean and Emma at the same time. It doesn't mean he gets to be with them both but it is possible to care deeply for more than one person (and yes I mean romantically).

    Agree with some of this and disagree with some. By the end of Morrison's run, and in ENDSONG, I don't think Scott is in love with Jean anymore. He cares about her, wil always care about her, and you could still say he loves her. But in love? No, that ship has sailed As always, ensuing writers can have a different take But if we are trying to interpret Morrison's run, what he is trying to say, that's my take.

    I'm not looking for "real" Real life couples have affairs all the time. That's not what I was looking for from this couple. For me, any way that Morrison might have executed the marital issues somewhat well lost any credibility when he started retroactively deconstructing them. Now it just loses all plausibility Hey, no writer was going to break them up in a manner that I'd like. I freely concede that. HOwever, I think I could objectively view it as workable if they had just started with Scott coming back completely different. Start there and move forward. IMO, they weren't going to be broken up believably going backwards It had just been too long.

    Hey, that story did a number on me. I can't tell you I don't feel the same way about the couple as I used to feel. That said, zero interest in them just being friends. You have to expect some of that here. It is a Jott thread afterall.

  10. #1810
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    Quote Originally Posted by KangMiRae View Post
    Yeah, it's really weird. Most of the time they're hardcore Jean fans and not so much Scott fans

    I think they're just settlers who know Jean's character revolves around Scott and they can't get her away from him so they're hoping they just become ex-es and friends instead of the couple they've always meant to be. Just weird. It's like backhanded support for Jott. Really, really weird. I question their love for Jott!
    Over the years I've seen some of everything. Mainly Jean fans who liked her with Scott, but it was mainly their love of her. The cpmplete reverse with mainly Scott fans. Then you had a sect, like myself, who liked both. They were my 2 favorite X Men from thw time I started reading the book.
    Individually, regardless of them being coupled. It's why the integrity of each of their characters/ was so important to me. You can't just strip that away, put them back together, and keep me a happy camper.

  11. #1811
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    I think there is room for lots of ongoing story involving Scott and Jean. I don't see them immediately getting back together, but they may start dating occasionally to see if they can get the spark back. More than anything I really want to see Jean and Scott interacting with Cable and Rachel on an ongoing basis. I think ideally for me it would work best if Rachel decides to work with Cable all the time, so when they do interact with their parents they can both be there. This is what I was hoping years ago when Rachel reappeared at the tail end of Cable Vol 1 to help Cable with the Sisterhood, I was hoping that Rachel and Cable would stay partners because it would make it easier for them to interact together with their parents.

    I would love to see another 5 issue mini where Jean, Scott, Cable, and Rachel have to do a mission together, that would be pretty awesome to see the Summers/Grey family all re-united again.
    Regardless of relationship status, I'm very much in favor of this. There's been a few little moments here and there with Rach and Tyke but her and Scott still need to bury the hatchet I think. It's long overdue. That said you probably have to include Hope in that scenario and I'm just not too sure I want her around that much. Still this is the closest think the X-Men have to a nuclear family so I'd like to see the ties between them renewed.

    You know... all that family togetherness... this whole Jott problem maybe just takes care of itself.

  12. #1812
    Incredible Member RachelGrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfhammer View Post
    Regardless of relationship status, I'm very much in favor of this. There's been a few little moments here and there with Rach and Tyke but her and Scott still need to bury the hatchet I think. It's long overdue. That said you probably have to include Hope in that scenario and I'm just not too sure I want her around that much. Still this is the closest think the X-Men have to a nuclear family so I'd like to see the ties between them renewed.

    You know... all that family togetherness... this whole Jott problem maybe just takes care of itself.
    Yeah, Jean and Scott take the "kids" out for a trip and they fall back in love again while taking care of their "kids". LOL

  13. #1813
    Incredible Member KangMiRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lancer View Post
    Over the years I've seen some of everything. Mainly Jean fans who liked her with Scott, but it was mainly their love of her. The cpmplete reverse with mainly Scott fans. Then you had a sect, like myself, who liked both. They were my 2 favorite X Men from thw time I started reading the book.
    Individually, regardless of them being coupled. It's why the integrity of each of their characters/ was so important to me. You can't just strip that away, put them back together, and keep me a happy camper.
    I'm a fan of both, for sure. But I'll always want them together. They're my mutant MJ and Peter, lol.

    Although, both Scott and Jean are lower than MJ and Peter if I have to compare my favorite couples.
    Captain of many ships—no matter how much you hate it!
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    Scott x Jean
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    Peter x Gwen
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    Felicia x Peter
    Clark x Lois
    Dick x Babs

  14. #1814
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    Yeah, Jean and Scott take the "kids" out for a trip and they fall back in love again while taking care of their "kids". LOL
    Exactly, with no small amount of awkward needling from said kids. I'm not too sure how Nathan Christopher feels about getting his parents back together but Rachel hasn't been shy about her opinions.

  15. #1815
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Phoenix/Jean, Cyclops, Wolverine, Storm

    These characters are not real and nobody loves each other for real. They will dump and love people even if it makes no sense just to for the sake of it.
    My ships: Jean/Scott, Wanda/Vision, Scott/Logan, Rogue/Gambit, Storm/Black Panther.

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