Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[Decoy]

Best case scenario.........Uncanny#22 would have them make the tentative steps to reconciliation, time jump to House/ Powers of X where they’re on more even ground (but no real mention of their relationship status, but judging by the cover of HOX #4 with them in the old role of watching each other’s back in battle, I’d hazard a guess that things are better, as well Scott seems clean shaven by then, as opposed to the somewhat disheveled look he has now, but I digress, maybe hint that there’s something going on) then when the monthly series start up again, maybe show some momentum, and a Annual could have flashbacks to them working things out, maybe in the backdrop to some other event, like Acts of Evil or another Deathbird or Vulcan tantrum, or even during the downtime that the team has recovering from the AU stint and the Bucket List Teams somewhat devastating tour, as I figure both Scott and Jean would need to sort out even more crap that’s happened........

Worst case scenario, hello Scott Emma 2.0......(.but I point out Hickman didn’t say anything about who Emma dates, just that she was his favorite from Generation X, so maybe there’s a small glimmer of hope, which seems to be more prevalent in Marvel somehow than DC)

[MarvelMaster616]

This is so cute
https://twitter.com/_sharking/status...64276723986433
Attachment 83517

That is omega level adorable.

[phoenixzero23]

That is omega level adorable.

Jeen and Tyke were cute when Marvel wasnt messing with them. Which sadly was 99% of the time.
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[Ulfhammer]

The rapport was severed when Scott merged with Apocalypse. That's why Jean thought he was dead for so long. Then, Rogue had a vision of him while rescuing Lee Forrester from a hurricane. The vision convinced Jean that Scott was still alive, and she started looking for him. Even after he was separated from Apocalypse, the rapport remained severed. This was confirmed by Scott during a conversation with Logan during "Eve of Destruction".



Based on how Claremont and Lobdell portrayed it, the way the rapport worked was that Scott and Jean could communicate with each other telepathically, and they could sense both each other's presence--even over distances--and condition. On Scott's side, the latter seemed to work like a kind of hyper-intuition. For example, he could use it to find her if she was out of deliberate contact. IIRC, in Legion Quest, that's how the X-Men found Jean when she was unconscious after fighting Legion in the Negev Desert (X-Men vol. 2 #40). The rapport was also a kind of psychic tether linking their minds--it's how Mother Askani was able to pull the two of them into the future to raise Nathan.

Bunn played with the concept, too, with Tyke and Jeen, but their rapport was much less structured and perhaps more intense. They could involuntarily hear each other's private thoughts and sense each other's feelings.

Thanks for the clarification. The only element that remains unclear is the on-panel reason for why they never re-established the rapport following the event of tSfC. I think in retrospect we can understand why Scott wouldn't have wanted this, but for it to never come up seems odd. Of course Morrison couldn't have done what he did with it intact. I think that's clear. Just one more thing that should have happened but didn't because Morrison had to take all the tools away from them as a couple to reach his desired outcome.

[Havok83]

Its a shame that the Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix did nothing to change them. They lived 12 years in a dystopian future ruled by Apocalypse, which at that point was longer than their tenure as X-men. They should have been hardened and mentally returned as slighltly different characters, affected by their experiences. Instead Marvel did nothing with that. It seems unrealistic that they would come back as a cookie cutter all American couple. They were fighting and part of a rebellion for a long time for heaven's sake

[lancer]

Morrison didn't see telepathic sex as real sex, it's an idea that didnt work well, because it seems most fans do see it as real sex, or equivalent at least. For Morrison it must have been more on the "phone sex" level.
Remember the scene in which he makes Jean say "but they were thinking about it" I think Morrison's intention there was painting Jean in a bad light (not as a character, just a moment of weakness) as a telepath who punished others for thinking the wrong things, for thinking of f*cking her husband

I missed this yesterday. In his COMICS CREATORS ON THE X MEN interview, Morrison acknowledged it as probably adultery. But as he was writing it, I was thinking that he might be playing some with the ambiguities of what is cheating

Thing is, IMO, he was using the wrong chaaracters for that. Jean is a telepath compunded by the fact that she and Scott used to share a psychic rapport. , Plot for who the characters are, don't twist the characters to fit your plot.


In any case, whatever he intended, NXM 139 read to me as Scott unjustly accused. Jean sees nothing happened in Hong Kong and Scott storms off like he's the injured party. Instead of what I'm thinking, What about what you've been doing with Emma for the last how many weeks? Or possibly.months? At that point, that he hadn't slept with Emma in Hong kong(I never thiught he had) was of very little consolation to me.

There were several posts here about Jean/Scott originally playing a lot bigger role in the ending of DARK PHOENIX. Anyone have any links to confirm this? Is it just rumors or have any of the creative people involved confirmed it?

I saw an article today where KInberg takes full responsiblity for it's box office failure I'll tell ya, while I sure didn't love the movie, I've sure seen worse. I think the 2015 FF movie makes DARK PHOENIX look like CITIZEN KANE. That's a movie that I thought was BAD

[phoenixzero23]

There were several posts here about Jean/Scott originally playing a lot bigger role in the ending of DARK PHOENIX. Anyone have any links to confirm this? Is it just rumors or have any of the creative people involved confirmed it?

I saw an article today where KInberg takes full responsiblity for it's box office failure I'll tell ya, while I sure didn't love the movie, I've sure seen worse. I think the 2015 FF movie makes DARK PHOENIX look like CITIZEN KANE. That's a movie that I thought was BAD

I don't have the links right now but yes I have seen many scenes between them that were cut. The third arc was from a totally different movie (not much better but very different)

[FUBAR007]

Its a shame that the Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix did nothing to change them. They lived 12 years in a dystopian future ruled by Apocalypse, which at that point was longer than their tenure as X-men. They should have been hardened and mentally returned as slighltly different characters, affected by their experiences. Instead Marvel did nothing with that. It seems unrealistic that they would come back as a cookie cutter all American couple. They were fighting and part of a rebellion for a long time for heaven's sake

Agreed. I wish Harras, Lobdell, & co. had leaned into that more. I've always thought it'd be neat if, after coming back to the present, Scott and Jean used the future language of the Askani as their own personal, private language. They could have entire discussions in front of everyone if they so chose, but no one other than Cable would know what they were saying. Scott and Jean occasionally using some of Nate's slang from the future--"stab his eyes", "flonq", "oath", etc.--would've been a nice touch, too. References to adventures they had, people they knew, places they visited--really show the fact that they had a whole different life for years, much of which we never saw.

Marvel could've gotten a lot of mileage out of that. It's too bad they didn't.

[phoenixzero23]

Its a shame that the Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix did nothing to change them. They lived 12 years in a dystopian future ruled by Apocalypse, which at that point was longer than their tenure as X-men. They should have been hardened and mentally returned as slighltly different characters, affected by their experiences. Instead Marvel did nothing with that. It seems unrealistic that they would come back as a cookie cutter all American couple. They were fighting and part of a rebellion for a long time for heaven's sake

I try to don't put much logic in Marvel when it comes to romance. For years they pushed Emma/Scott has the OTP and now they somewhat ignore that, that happens to all romances, peter/mj are the spidey otp and yet they were years apart and in drama. what the characters feel is not really important. They love or move on according to whatever the editors and writers of the time want, not because of logic or for their characters.
They love or stop loving on a whim, regardless of it makes sense or not.

[KangMiRae]

I try to don't put muc logic in Marvel when it comes to romance. For years they pushed Emma/Scott has the OTP and now they somewhat ignore that, that happens to all romances, peter/mj are the spidey otp and yet they were years apart and in drama. what the characters feel is not really important. They love or move on according to whatever the editors and writers of the time want, not because of logic or for their characters.
They love or stop loving on a whim, regardless of it makes sense or not.

The tragedy of comicbook romances!

[JeisonWolf]

Hello guys, some time ago I think that in the old thread someone published a fanfic of Jott in AoA, the story is not focused only on Jott, but also on other characters and couples like Romy among others, if someone knows by chance how is this story called, could you tell me? please hehe

[Ulfhammer]

Question only for Jott fans.
If you could re do Morrison run, what problems would this relationship have and the many ways to work them out. In what way would apocalypse change Scott? How would the couple deal with this?
@Ulfhammer @Bell i am curious as to what you two would say.

I thought a good bit about how to answer this question. I went back and read some key chunks of the run. I'd actually forgotten how short it is at just over forty issues. I've come to the conclusion that the vast majority of Morrison's run is fine, and just a handful of pages from a couple of issues would need to be tweaked. I think Morrison created a perfectly reasonable and realistic set of problems for them as a couple. It was how they dealt with those problems that I take major issue with.

I'm going to be long winded here which is unfortunate because brevity is a gift and likely most of what I say won't be a revelation but you asked for it.

Let's back this up a bit and deal with your questions one at a time.

The problems:
The approach Morrison took here I think is actually perfectly fine. Despite the fact that Scott and Jean had very few problems in their relationship that were actually internal in nature, Scott's possession by Apocalypse was a great angle to create these problems. Case in point is this set of panels from NXM 116. I think Morrison is actually laying out his whole case here when it comes to these two. Here's the first set of panels.



When I first read this issue, I felt that what was important here was what was being said. Re-reading this issue again, it actually seems to me like what's really important is how it's being said. Thinking back to how this conversation might have gone in the Claremont era or under Nicieza's pen for instance, the one thing that really jumps out at me is how very little this conversation seems to matter to the two of them. I might be reading too much in the the expressions but they both seem distracted, maybe even bored. Maybe it's just Quitely's art. Even the body language seems to reinforce this though. The language in this panel tells me that they are discussing a potential existential crisis of their relationship, but neither of them seems to be able to rustle up the energy to really care too much. This interaction goes on for another page it's basically the exact same body language and level of engagement throughout. If this was 80's or 90's Jean and Scott, Jean might be shaking Scott by the shoulders while delivering these lines or vice versa.

I think Morrison's making a point here, and it's actually a good one. Jean's line says it perfectly. "Nothing will ever break the bond between us and we both know that." She's referring to their history of overcoming incredible odds of course, and the deep bond they share. The problem is that neither of them are really listening to each other. The reason they were able to overcome such incredible obstacles in their history is that those obstacles were external. It's a lot easier to go back to back and fight to the death when there's a clear enemy to fight.

The problems being discussed in this panel aren't external, their between the two of them, but Jean at least seems more than willing to rely on their history and it appears that at least she assumes everything will just kind of work out because it has in the past. It's just a clear case of both of them basically taking each other for granted. Morrison seems to put more of this on Jean, at least in this issue but it's clear neither of them are too worked up about it. It's a deep misread by Morrison on how Jean and Scott actually solved problems in the past but given the situation, it makes some sense because Scott is not himself.

The point is that Morrison did clamp onto an approach that had a legitimate chance of being successful in sinking these two and that's a sense of relationship invulnerability, especially on Jean's part. That makes sense to some degree because she doesn't realize how damaged Scott is at this point. I would change any of this and I think it's a very solid test of their relationship. That leads to your next question.

What did Apocalypse really do to Scott?
In your original question, I think you framed it more toward how I would have changed what Morrison seemed to think happened to Scott. The truth is I wouldn't. Everything I'm writing here is basically speculation as there's no clear evidence of how exactly Apocalypse went about this but I suspect it mostly came down to a couple of key factors.

First, despite everything Scott had done, the X-Men, and mutants in general, were not significantly better off than they were when he began and an argument could be made that given their recent experiences with during OZT and with the Legacy virus prior to that, in fact things were much worse. This would have forced Scott to question either the methods the X-Men had used or their goals or both. I think most people agree that this happened based on how Scott approached problems immediately afterward. A good example of this is how quickly Scott was willing to accept that Cassandra deserved death for destroying Genosha. True, the crime was horrific, but I don't recall Scott ever being this comfortable with an execution, even if it did end up being a fakeout.

Secondly, there is ample room for Apocalypse to attack Scott's history. Christopher Summers, Charles, Sinister, Jack Winters and the Phoenix Force are all examples of authority figures or loved ones whose connection to Scott at various times in his life was based on deception, abandonment or a desire to use Scott for their own ends. There is a very troubling pattern here that a malicious intelligence like old blue lips could easily use to undermine the single most important relationship Scott had, his marriage to Jean. This could easily be done by convincing Scott he had been using Jean and deceiving her just as all those people had done to Scott.

For a man with the deep-seated self worth issues Scott always had, it wouldn't be hard for Apocalypse to point out how Scott had failed to protect Jean on the Starcore Shuttle. How he'd selfishly abandoned the X-Men Jean so loved after she died. How he'd jumped into the arms of another woman that looked like Jean so quickly after her death because he lacked the strength to deal with his grief. How he couldn't bring himself to tell her the truth about Maddie when she returned. How Scott had burdened Jean with Maddie's wrath during Inferno and the painful memories that Jean would now have to live with forever because of him. How he was unwilling to give Jean the time she needed to process the situation and pushed for them to get married. It would be easy, given enough time, for Scott's feelings of inadequacy when it came to Jean, to resurface and for him to begin to believe that he been continually selfish and self serving when it came to her.

Now of course we don't know how much time actually passed for Scott while he was joined to Apocalypse but we can see the outcome. Scott was tentative and lacking in confidence with her when he returned. It's easy to see why he wouldn't be as forceful as he might be otherwise, if he just wondering in the back of his head if their marriage falling apart might actually be good for Jean. Of course that's not the truth, but I think given Scott's history, it's a feeling that could be genuinely ingrained with the help of a malevolent entity co-inhabiting his mind. Here's the appropriate panels from 116 that immediately follow what I posted above and I think it supports this perspective pretty well.



Notice how dismissive Jean is of Scott's statement here? Yes Jean, you did overcome an evil spirit yourself, but there was a huge amount of damage done along the way. I may sound like I'm judging Jean harshly in this interaction but the reality is that's because Morrison is writing her as verily flippant. Scott is voicing legitimate concerns here and Jean's mostly responding with platitudes. I think Morrison really set the stage for Emma's infiltration into their marriage right here and honestly it works pretty well. Scott's clearly struggling but doesn't seem to have it in him to press the issue. Meanwhile Jean seems the problems, but is content to do nothing to fix it, essentially hoping that time will heal all wounds.

This scene was an opportunity to short circuit the entire issue right here of course. Scott could or rather should have told Jean exactly what he'd go on to tell Emma later in Hong Kong. For her part, Jean could have used her telepathy to simply read Scott's mind and get sight on the whole ugly problem he was wrestling with. Neither of them did it and the problem festered. Again, if your going to really test them as a couple I'm ok with how this scene went. It setup the problem pretty well and showed why both of them seemed unwilling to deal with it. Jean was clearly distracted, playing TK games for whatever reason (a prelude to the PF's return?), and as I said earlier, Scott didn't feel that Jean deserved to be burdened with yet another short coming of his or at least wasn't willing to press the point. Of course this would all come back full circle in 139.

...to be continued due to word count limit.

[Ulfhammer]

Continued from previous post:

Why Emma's appeal to Scott worked, and where Morrison jumped the shark
I think Emma's appeal when it came to the state Scott was in after 116 is pretty clear. Emma's a former villain. Lying, deception and sin are her stock in trade, or at least they were. I'm sure for someone struggling with the issues Scott was, Emma seemed like the perfect confidante. Not only is he revealing his dark thoughts to someone he considers morally grey, she also an outsider. She hasn't been privy to watching Scott and Jean's love story unfold, or been a part of the team Scott essentially came to age on. It's clear that there will be no judgments from Emma and Scott is free to unburden himself. So he does.

NXM 128 is the first real breakthrough Scott has about actually communicating his feelings. This is also where Morrison's bias begins to show. Here's the applicable page.



Like all writers striving to fudge characterization, Morrison begins to warp the narrative of their relationship here. He has Scott talking about the moon being the last time he felt something "unshakable" for Jean. That's the ancient past where their relationship is concerned and totally disregards all that's happened since. In fact I'd argue that they feelings he's expressing here would have been much more appropriate to have following Pheonix's death on the moon than it would after spend years more courting her, marrying her and raising a child together in an environment that required them to completely depend on each other.

Morrison goes on to say "But it's phony. We were faking this teenage unconditional love in the face of unstoppable chaos and change." To me this line says a lot more about Grant Morrison than it does about Scott. There whole relationship is based on unconditional love. It's exactly that lack of conditions that allowed to overcome the fallout from the DPS, but clearly this isn't a notion of love that Morrison put's much stock in. The rest of the speech seems pretty reasonable but the poison pills are already on the table. We'll come back to this speech when I discuss what I would have changed but nothing here really crosses the line.

Should we blame Scott for confiding in Emma? Probably. Scott never tried to communicate any of this to Jean. Yes, he was willing to have her suck it all out of his brain at once, but he was too much of a coward to look her in the eye and tell her word for word what was on his mind, Besides, any kind of emotional intimacy outside of your partner is usually a bad idea. Yes we can confide in a therapist but therapists are by definition trying to avoid reciprocity. Emma clearly isn't. That's seen first in 128 but much more so in 131 where Emma's role playing really begins. It's 131 where lines really begin to get crossed. First Scott questions whether an affair is beginning between them, then decides by the end of the issue that role playing with Emma (dressed as Jean) is fine because "why not". Clearly by this point Morrison is taking Scott over the line and by issue 136, there's no doubt it's a full on affair.

For me it's really those issues between 131 and 136 where Scott's behavior passes from the understandable to the unexplainable. Yes, Emma is a judgement free outlet for these feelings that Scott doesn't feel he can talk to Jean about, but when Scott so passively allows it to transition to full on adultery it just doesn't track. A man in Scott's position could perhaps feel some romantic feelings for the person he's finally able to unburden himself to, but it seems far more likely he ends up a bawling, blubbering mess on the floor than tongue wrestling with the therapist. Scott's in pain here. That much is clear. He's hurting from the loss of the one person he's so clearly emotionally entwined with. If he really did come to some emotional breakthrough with Emma, sex should be the last thing on his mind. The idea that somehow Emma parading around in the symbol of the most emotionally tumultuous time in his life, that's so deeply connected with his wife, somehow turns Scott on is ridiculous. If anything it should have snapped Scott out of his reverie and brought him back to his sense.

It's all pretty much downhill from here and Morrison has laid all the appropriate groundwork for Jean to discover what's going in 139. Even though that's where the affair really comes to light, all the damage is basically done by the end of 131.

So how do we fix all this?
Obviously Morrison's perspective was that it wasn't really fixable but it's also clear that he never really understood what worked about these two. Now you may think that after all that preamble, there will be some complicated overhaul that corrects all this and puts our favorite couple back on track. The truth is that it's just a handful of scenes that require some alteration. Understanding the problems may be somewhat complex but the solutions really aren't. I've already stated that I think the setup leading into 131 is basically ok but to correct the problem, we need to slightly alter Scott's speech to Emma in 128. By simply cutting the third and fourth panel, we get a narrative that's much more consistent with their actual history.

The next change, and where this really all comes together is issue 131. To me it's the crux of the matter and turned what could have been a bump in the road, to driving right off a cliff. I'd alter 131's final page to exactly what I suggested a few paragraphs back. Seeing Emma in Jean's Dark Phoenix outfit should have been more than snap Scott out of it. I'd have him run right out on Emma at the end of 131, thanking her for reminding him that dealing with his own Dark Phoenix is the only way he was ever going to resolve the problems haunting him.

Issue 132 is mostly about the team finding Lorna and getting some closure around Mag's death. Of course that won't last and I'd be more than happy to co-opt a chunk of this issue to Scott flying to Genosha to finally open up to Jean about his feelings. Would he be able to follow through? Maybe he ends up rambling about Emma dressing up as Jean as part of some desperate attempt at therapy and hopefully that would be enough to push Jean out of her complacency and drag the rest of it out of Scott.

So now the damage is all out there to be seen. What would actually repair that damage. As always the cure is the same. Jean's reassurance that Scott's best is enough for her and nothing in his heart or mind will scare her off. After all she been one with the PF. She experienced the best and worst desires the universe has to offer. Would one good conversation shutdown all of the feelings Scott's struggling with? No, definitely not. What it would accomplish is getting Scott and Jean back to depending on each other, not just physically but emotionally as well. This would be exactly what Jean's been hoping for too. Someone to believe that she can balance the PF, but still be there to share her doubts and fears, rather than being the one to voice them. To minimize alterations Scott could return to Westchester by the end of 132.

So where does that leave the rest of the run. We'll since we're retconing here, I could see the showdown with Emma going pretty much the same way it does in 139. Everything that's true about Jean's accusations at that point was basically true by the end of 131. Otherwise, I don't see Jean and Logan's rendezvous in the woods happening. The rest of the book plays out pretty much how it did before with the possible exception of Scott's presence on the Assault on Weapon Plus arc, though I think he could have been there anyway. Ideally Jean doesn't die during Planet X if we're indulging my person whims.

That said with the changes I've mentioned, Astonishing could have very well happened exactly the way it did because nothing I'm changing prevents it. Of course this depends on how much you think Jean effected Scott during HCT, but if we want to preserve the post-NXM continuity, that's certainly possible. After re-reading the issues I think that anything Emma feels for Scott is pretty much there by 131.

So the net total of the changes? One panel in 131, a good chunk of 132, the scenes with Emma and Scott in 136 and a few pages of 139. A few panel of dialogue between Jean and Logan would need to be altered in 148. If you're on board with a massive make over the last fifteen years I'd make changes to 5 pages of 150 to spare Jean that ridiculous demise. All told, maybe an issue of content.

Anyways that my long winded take on all this. Thanks for asking the questions. I've found that I actually really enjoyed large chunks of this run. It just got overshadowed by that issue or so that need some tweaks.

[JeisonWolf]

I think Morrison created the correct bases for Jean to look bad, she was cold and distant towards Scott, seeing those panels again is really obvious, it seems almost that she didn't care, when he tries to communicate a bit with her sponding what he feels, she shows little interest, after this she goes to look for Logan. This could really give us the image that Jean no longer cares about Scott, or not like she did before, it also gives the image that she wanted to cheat on him, even though Logan says no, she just keeps quiet and then goes back to Scott as if nothing had happened.
When Scott flees she never goes looking for him, it seems that she doesn't really care and we only see that she shows something really for Scott when she is about to die in Logan's arms.
Then Scott has always been quite complex for me, as Ulfhammer has said, at first his actions seem logical, but when he begins to question his love for Jean saying that it's a teenage love and heeding Emma's advances, it is certain that he puts some resistance, but I don't see that after it happened once Scott would be calm, remember the kiss with Betsy, he knew it was wrong and decided to flee from that situation before something worse would happen, this is really how Scott would act. Then flee from Jean and kiss Emma at Jean's grave gave Scott a very bad image.

[Decoy]

I’m still convinced Mastermind is behind everything from New X-Men to now.....the simple motive: revenge......revenge against Emma, Cyclops and Jean, with the others X-Men as a bonus.........if I’m right, knowing Wyngarde’s Family Mastermind, if it’s the Original or a unknown son, would reveal themselves before this is all over......