Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[TheDeadSpace]

At the same time, Scott just seems like an easy target for hate and ridicule out of a majority of characters. I'm not sure what it is. I mean, yeah he has made errors but for some reason they seem to be considered more prominent than for others.

[TheCape]

At the same time, Scott just seems like an easy target for hate and ridicule out of a majority of characters. I'm not sure what it is. I mean, yeah he has made errors but for some reason they seem to be considered more prominent than for others.

A combination of people hearing of his mistakes without the proper context, being the most prominent male X-Men after Wolverine and a huge focus on him this last few years and sometimes just very very awfull fans.

[lancer]

You and Ulfhammer are both right. It depends on at what point in Scott's history you're talking about.

Unfortunately, Scott's character development hasn't been linear and progressive but cyclical. Scott starts out insecure, matures through decision and action, becomes cool, confident, and adult...then some new writer comes in, hits the reset button, and tears him back down again. Claremont did a soft version of this in the mid-70s, having Scott stay with the X-Men when the rest of the O5--including Jean--left because he supposedly couldn't envision life as a civilian. This ignored much of Scott's Silver Age development arc such as when he and Jean got real jobs and normal(-ish) lives when the X-Men briefly broke up. Claremont then spent a decade building Scott up again, culminating in his marriage to Madelyne and semi-retirement in Alaska.

Then, along came Bob Layton and the launch of X-Factor. Layton used Jean's resurrection to give Scott a nervous breakdown and regress his character back to a neurotic, insecure mess. Louise Simonson, and later on Scott Lobdell and Fabian Nicieza, altogether spent another decade building Cyke back up, including his marriage to Jean, raising Nathan in the future, and ultimately sacrificing himself to stop Apocalypse.

Then, along came Grant Morrison and the launch of New X-Men. Morrison used Scott's merger to Apocalypse to give Scott another nervous breakdown and regress his character back to a neurotic, insecure mess. Morrison, Whedon, and later writers spent yet another decade rebuilding him, this time with Emma at his side, as both Xavier and Magneto's successor as the leader of mutantkind, culminating in "AvX".

Then, along came Brian Bendis and a relaunch of Uncanny X-Men. Bendis used Scott's possession by the Phoenix and Xavier's subsequent death to give Scott yet another nervous breakdown and regress his character back to a neurotic, insecure mess. This time, instead of building him back up again, Marvel decided to kill him off in Death of X.

Now, a new creative team has brought Scott back, presumably with the intent of rebuilding him...again.

In theory, Scott's supposed to be the X-Men franchise's answer to Captain America: the loyal commander and soldier, the faithful leader and exemplar, the success story of a lonely orphan finding self-fulfillment in a worthy cause and, as a result, becoming a strong, respected leader of men. In practice, however, Scott has been treated more as the franchise's answer to Hank Pym: a well-intentioned man of remarkable and unique ability, but with severe psychological problems and a tendency to periodically self-destruct. Similarly, there are at a broad level parallels between Scott and Jean's relationship and Pym's relationship with the Wasp.

Let's be clear on how this started. I replied to an assertion that these traits have always been a part of Scott's character. I never claimed that he had never been portrayed that way. Now, I stated, and still believe, that the fairly clear majority of the time he was not portrayed that way. I mean 1963 until Morrison left

Also, let's not confuse a teenage boy filled with insecurities, feeling he's been cursed by his powers with a husband having an affair with his wife. At least in terms of being morally flawed. Or for that matter what kind of husband he was to Maddie in the end. In my own personal viewpoint he did not cross the same lines there, but it sure wasn't good.

I'm with you with the Captain America comparison. I want the guy who was if not the moral conscience of the team, among them. But you can't do that when you continue to do the things they've done with the character. He simply becomes that character. If they are Hank and Jan, you see where they wound up. I'm not sure if I go for that comparison. Scott never hit her.

It really is a moot argument to some extent. I'm continuing to argue a past that doesn't matter at this point. They chose to take the character in these directions, for better or worse. Of course, they can bring him back and write him the way we might like. Thing is, how long before another writer comes along and decides he liked the Cyclops we don't like? It's all in bounds because it's been done multiple times already.

[lancer]

Speaking only for myself, the body counts that Wolverine, Beast, Xavier, Namor, and Bishop have been made responsible for post-2001 have done tremendous damage to the characters and, IMO, made them non-viable as heroic protagonists without some heavy duty retconning. Bishop should be dead. Namor should've been tried for war crimes and executed. With all the things Logan has been retconned into being responsible for, he's now little better than Sabretooth. Xavier's retconning into a villain makes the Institute and the X-Men's continued existence as an organization nonsensical.

I don't discuss their situations much because few others in this forum seem to care. But, yes, what those characters have done is far worse than Scott's affair with Emma.

Personally, the affair hit hard for me because Scott and Jean have always been my favorite X-Men characters and their relationship my favorite romance. It's not that my moral outrage over the affair is greater; it's that my emotional attachment to Scott and Jean is greater.

Pretty much sums up my feelings. I've complained about Scott more because he was my favorite X Man. Nowhere have I argued that he is the only character they have butchered. That's how I don't read the comics anymore. Tired of watching some of my favorites portrayed in a way I just could not abide.

I'm wasting enough time here arguing a character I did care about without getting into character that I don't particularly care about objectively feel were mishandled. And absolutely what some of these characters have done makes Scott look like a choir boy in comparison. Morrison's Scott isn't someone I think anyone should call a villain. A flawed man. More flawed than I want him to be.

Some people want the real world, I don't. People have affairs all the time there. I want characters like Scott and Jean, I could list many others, to be better than that. Certainly there have been many characters created to be more flawed. When they wanted a morally flawed Captain America, they didn't change Steve Rogers, they created John Walker.

[PrezValentine]

You underestimate the power of the wun troo luv fallacy.

Speaking of Pym, though, it's better for a character to be closer to the Pym side of the spectrum, the complex Marvel character side, than the Cap side of the spectrum, the more classical DC character side. And in regards to old romances coming back or not, the way Hank and Jan split off at the end of that original Shooter arc was reeaaaal good.

I like the flawed version of Scott better than the boyscout. Can't deny that. I just don't want him to keep being reset to factory settings and then changed again because it doesn't work for him anymore.

When it comes to Jean, I can understand the appeal of the "one true love". I love them together, they'll always be my favorite couple, but I'd rather have it end for real and have them split. Look at this very thread. The affair is the main point of discussion for pages and pages. It can't be undone, Jean was dead for 13 years and Scott was with Emma for 8 years. No matter how much anyone roots for it, think about it positively or whatever, this is how it will be and, even if she apparently forgave him, it will be brought up.

[Cyke is Slim]

[FUBAR007]

When it comes to Jean, I can understand the appeal of the "one true love". I love them together, they'll always be my favorite couple, but I'd rather have it end for real and have them split. Look at this very thread. The affair is the main point of discussion for pages and pages. It can't be undone, Jean was dead for 13 years and Scott was with Emma for 8 years. No matter how much anyone roots for it, think about it positively or whatever, this is how it will be and, even if she apparently forgave him, it will be brought up.

I like Scott and Jean together as a couple more than I care about fan angst in this forum. Butthurt over a 15-year-old story shouldn't preclude new Jott stories from being told.

The affair remains such a sticking point because Marvel never gave it a truly satisfactory emotional resolution. Morrison bungled the execution, and subsequent creative teams enjoyed playing with Scemma too much to go back and address it. Now, a decade and a half later, Marvel has drawn a line under it and moved on. Marvel doesn't want to deal with it any depth or detail. Jean has forgiven Scott, and they've reconciled. They've gotten over it, and so should we.

[phoenixzero23]

Cute. Wish Marvel did more cute stuff with them, they were the greatest X-couple but some people don't remember it.
It was such a pure, epic and long lasting love.

[phoenixzero23]

Jott thread, it doesn't mean it has to be to bash other ships or characters. Just love for Jean, Scott, Jott.
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[Matt]

I've just gone through and cleaned up a bit of this thread. I've had to delete a lot of content that was either off-topic, insulting to users or creators or simply daft. I even had to hand out a couple of temp bans.

I don't like doing this sort of thing, it's definitely not fun. I know community members don't like to see posts suddenly gone either.

Please keep the conversation on topic. Please keep the conversation civil.

Thank you.

[MarvelMaster616]

Was browsing Twitter and it looks like we'll be getting another Dark Phoenix trailer very soon. Hope this means we'll get a glimpse of Sophie Turner going full-Phoenix. I hope it also shows some quality Scott/Jean moments, something we didn't get in X3. Based on all the interviews we've gotten thus far, this movie is really going to play up that relationship, much more so than X3 ever did. I think that's critical because that's not just more in line with the comics. It gives the Phoenix the kind of dramatic weight that helped make it such an iconic story. Kinberg has already admitted that it was a mistake to make the Phoenix a sub-plot. It sounds like it's going to be the main plot here and that can only help.

[phoenixzero23]

I hope so, i want to watch something with Jean and Scott has a couple and not the angst and drama that Marvel wants this relationship to be.

But Dark Phoenix looks like a bomb to be honest. I hope i'm wrong.

[Abbz_A]

I like Scott and Jean together as a couple more than I care about fan angst in this forum. Butthurt over a 15-year-old story shouldn't preclude new Jott stories from being told.

The affair remains such a sticking point because Marvel never gave it a truly satisfactory emotional resolution. Morrison bungled the execution, and subsequent creative teams enjoyed playing with Scemma too much to go back and address it. Now, a decade and a half later, Marvel has drawn a line under it and moved on. Marvel doesn't want to deal with it any depth or detail. Jean has forgiven Scott, and they've reconciled. They've gotten over it, and so should we.

Pretty much.

I just wonder how P.R. would play later when they reunite. Since, clearly, they forgave one another ... then why are they pulling another will-they-won’t they on us?

I’m confused.

Ahhh! This is adorable! <3

[SpiderClops]

Was browsing Twitter and it looks like we'll be getting another Dark Phoenix trailer very soon. Hope this means we'll get a glimpse of Sophie Turner going full-Phoenix. I hope it also shows some quality Scott/Jean moments, something we didn't get in X3. Based on all the interviews we've gotten thus far, this movie is really going to play up that relationship, much more so than X3 ever did. I think that's critical because that's not just more in line with the comics. It gives the Phoenix the kind of dramatic weight that helped make it such an iconic story. Kinberg has already admitted that it was a mistake to make the Phoenix a sub-plot. It sounds like it's going to be the main plot here and that can only help.

Hmm, that's earlier than I expected. I thought we would get one at Superbowl.

[JeisonWolf]

I love this and OMG is Jean a super sayan!?

Pretty much.

I just wonder how P.R. would play later when they reunite. Since, clearly, they forgave one another ... then why are they pulling another will-they-won’t they on us?

I’m confused.

Being logical, I think what they would do at the moment of seeing each other is to jump into each other's arms and kiss each other again. Of course it is unlikely that this happens even if it is the most logical, as I say Scott surely see Jean with Bishop or whoever and decide to get away from them ... eventually Jean will know that Scott has returned and then have an internal fight for return with Scott or continue with Bishop, maybe some writer says that as Scott left Jean prefers to stay with Bishop since Scott did not want to fight for her (Jean knows Scott better than anyone else, so she should not be surprised by the insecurity that he has, but maybe she feels pain because he does not think she loves him enough?)