Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[nightw1ng]

One of the many reasons why I loved when X-Men TAS did their take on the Phoenix was that they got rid of the awful ponytail and finally gave Jean the same voluminous hair that they gave Storm and Rogue.

[MarvelMaster616]

I hope so, i want to watch something with Jean and Scott has a couple and not the angst and drama that Marvel wants this relationship to be.

But Dark Phoenix looks like a bomb to be honest. I hope i'm wrong.

Why do you think it looks like a bomb? I think it looks great. It has the X-men going into space. It has comics-accurate costumes inspired by Frank Quietly. It's not centered around Wolverine for once. We've also seen hints that Jean will actually show some Phoenix-level flare, something we never saw in X3. It also might actually do the Cyclops/Jean relationship justice. What's not to like?

[Wiccan]

Why do you think it looks like a bomb? I think it looks great. It has the X-men going into space. It has comics-accurate costumes inspired by Frank Quietly. It's not centered around Wolverine for once. We've also seen hints that Jean will actually show some Phoenix-level flare, something we never saw in X3. It also might actually do the Cyclops/Jean relationship justice. What's not to like?

1 - The said Frank Quitely inspired costumes are actually just basic black clothes with a yellow X in the middle. They may look kinda similar to that New X-Men #1 cover, but they look nothing like how the outfits were actually used on the pages and all other covers.

2 - "It's not focused on Wolverine for once" Of course. It's Dark Phoenix. I don't think Fox should be getting points for doing literally the bare minimum, just because X3 exists.

3 - The X-Men going to space... Well, from what it looks like so far, only for a random mission where Jean turns into Phoenix(which doesn't seem to make any sense as her releasing her Phoenix powers was the climax of Apocalypse LOL). This is the equivalent to Jean piloting that shuffle in the comics and first turning into Phoenix... When people talk about Dark Phoenix and space together, they're thinking about the Shi'Ar and stuff.

Besides that:

- The first trailer shows lots of focus on Xavier, Magneto and Mystique drama as usual. Blergh. First of all, besides Xavier they have no place in this story, and second, this dynamic is super tired already.

- This is done by the same man who wrote The Last Stand... Yeah, he knows that they all fucked up that movie and that's exactly one of the reasons he decided to do Dark Phoenix AFAIK. But the impression I get it's that he's more focused on doing a good version of X3 than a good version of the Dark Phoenix Saga from the comics. A lot of the story beats seem to be the same: Jean is afraid of her powers, Jean goes to Magneto, her childhood and Xavier's presence on it has a lot to do with it...

- It was too soon to do Dark Phoenix. Those versions of Jean and Scott have just been introduced on the previous film. Their relationship has barely been established. We haven't had enough time to grow attached to these versions of the characters, so seeing Jean losing control and going bad, Scott and the X-Men fighting for her despite all that, her possible death... There's just not enough emotional investment for those things to be as powerful as they should be.

- Things like many reshoots and the date being delayed twice, with a different of 7 months or so from the original date, doesn't feel like a good sign.

- The Fox/Disney deal is getting closed soon, and with that, the expectations are that the X-Men are gonna get fully rebooted. So a lot of people are already losing interest on the Foxverse, and most aren't going to see this looking forward to what's coming next, because most people's expectations is that that's it.

[phoenixzero23]

1 - The said Frank Quitely inspired costumes are actually just basic black clothes with a yellow X in the middle. They may look kinda similar to that New X-Men #1 cover, but they look nothing like how the outfits were actually used on the pages and all other covers.

2 - "It's not focused on Wolverine for once" Of course. It's Dark Phoenix. I don't think Fox should be getting points for doing literally the bare minimum, just because X3 exists.

3 - The X-Men going to space... Well, from what it looks like so far, only for a random mission where Jean turns into Phoenix(which doesn't seem to make any sense as her releasing her Phoenix powers was the climax of Apocalypse LOL). This is the equivalent to Jean piloting that shuffle in the comics and first turning into Phoenix... When people talk about Dark Phoenix and space together, they're thinking about the Shi'Ar and stuff.

Besides that:

- The first trailer shows lots of focus on Xavier, Magneto and Mystique drama as usual. Blergh. First of all, besides Xavier they have no place in this story, and second, this dynamic is super tired already.

- This is done by the same man who wrote The Last Stand... Yeah, he knows that they all fucked up that movie and that's exactly one of the reasons he decided to do Dark Phoenix AFAIK. But the impression I get it's that he's more focused on doing a good version of X3 than a good version of the Dark Phoenix Saga from the comics. A lot of the story beats seem to be the same: Jean is afraid of her powers, Jean goes to Magneto, her childhood and Xavier's presence on it has a lot to do with it...

- It was too soon to do Dark Phoenix. Those versions of Jean and Scott have just been introduced on the previous film. Their relationship has barely been established. We haven't had enough time to grow attached to these versions of the characters, so seeing Jean losing control and going bad, Scott and the X-Men fighting for her despite all that, her possible death... There's just not enough emotional investment for those things to be as powerful as they should be.

- Things like many reshoots and the date being delayed twice, with a different of 7 months or so from the original date, doesn't feel like a good sign.

- The Fox/Disney deal is getting closed soon, and with that, the expectations are that the X-Men are gonna get fully rebooted. So a lot of people are already losing interest on the Foxverse, and most aren't going to see this looking forward to what's coming next, because most people's expectations is that that's it.

Yup, there are many reasons why Dark phoenix isn't going to be good. I will still see it but i don't have high expectations. In fact it could give the total wrong impression about such a beautiful story and characters.

[MarvelMaster616]

1 - The said Frank Quitely inspired costumes are actually just basic black clothes with a yellow X in the middle. They may look kinda similar to that New X-Men #1 cover, but they look nothing like how the outfits were actually used on the pages and all other covers.

2 - "It's not focused on Wolverine for once" Of course. It's Dark Phoenix. I don't think Fox should be getting points for doing literally the bare minimum, just because X3 exists.

3 - The X-Men going to space... Well, from what it looks like so far, only for a random mission where Jean turns into Phoenix(which doesn't seem to make any sense as her releasing her Phoenix powers was the climax of Apocalypse LOL). This is the equivalent to Jean piloting that shuffle in the comics and first turning into Phoenix... When people talk about Dark Phoenix and space together, they're thinking about the Shi'Ar and stuff.

Besides that:

- The first trailer shows lots of focus on Xavier, Magneto and Mystique drama as usual. Blergh. First of all, besides Xavier they have no place in this story, and second, this dynamic is super tired already.

- This is done by the same man who wrote The Last Stand... Yeah, he knows that they all fucked up that movie and that's exactly one of the reasons he decided to do Dark Phoenix AFAIK. But the impression I get it's that he's more focused on doing a good version of X3 than a good version of the Dark Phoenix Saga from the comics. A lot of the story beats seem to be the same: Jean is afraid of her powers, Jean goes to Magneto, her childhood and Xavier's presence on it has a lot to do with it...

- It was too soon to do Dark Phoenix. Those versions of Jean and Scott have just been introduced on the previous film. Their relationship has barely been established. We haven't had enough time to grow attached to these versions of the characters, so seeing Jean losing control and going bad, Scott and the X-Men fighting for her despite all that, her possible death... There's just not enough emotional investment for those things to be as powerful as they should be.

- Things like many reshoots and the date being delayed twice, with a different of 7 months or so from the original date, doesn't feel like a good sign.

- The Fox/Disney deal is getting closed soon, and with that, the expectations are that the X-Men are gonna get fully rebooted. So a lot of people are already losing interest on the Foxverse, and most aren't going to see this looking forward to what's coming next, because most people's expectations is that that's it.

I honestly don't think those are fair reasons to assume that Dark Phoenix will be bad. I've seen so many people on this board and on social media making huge assumptions about this movie and just latching onto any excuse to hate it. And I honestly don't understand that. We know the X-Men will join the MCU. That's not changing. Simon Kinberg has gone on record as saying that X3 was a mistake and he's trying to correct it, but for some reason, he's getting flak for that. Why? That makes no sense. We've only seen a single trailer and that trailer already showed that this movie won't be like X3. For one, the X-Men are actually going into space. That didn't happen in X3. The Phoenix is actually the central plot, which wasn't the case in X3. Wolverine isn't the center of the story. The team is actually wearing comics-accurate costumes, for once. These are all big differences compared to X3 so at this point, it just feels like excuses.

And for Scott/Jean fans, this movie should have even greater appeal. I was at NYCC when Sophie Turner and Tye Sherridan showed up to promote the movie. They seemed genuinely excited about their characters and how they approached the movie. They also had a lot more chemistry than James Marsden and Famke Jannsen. I think that can only bode well for how this movie will portray the Cyclops/Jean relationship. We saw the connection begin in X-Men Apocalypse. This could really take it to a new level and I'm really looking forward to seeing the finished product.

As for reshoots, every movie does that. Infinity War, Deadpool 2, and Spider-Man Homecoming all had significant reshoots. That didn't stop the movie from being good. I would rather a movie refine itself as much as possible to give the best possible result.

[SpiderClops]

I honestly don't think those are fair reasons to assume that Dark Phoenix will be bad. I've seen so many people on this board and on social media making huge assumptions about this movie and just latching onto any excuse to hate it. And I honestly don't understand that. We know the X-Men will join the MCU. That's not changing. Simon Kinberg has gone on record as saying that X3 was a mistake and he's trying to correct it, but for some reason, he's getting flak for that. Why? That makes no sense. We've only seen a single trailer and that trailer already showed that this movie won't be like X3. For one, the X-Men are actually going into space. That didn't happen in X3. The Phoenix is actually the central plot, which wasn't the case in X3. Wolverine isn't the center of the story. The team is actually wearing comics-accurate costumes, for once. These are all big differences compared to X3 so at this point, it just feels like excuses.

And for Scott/Jean fans, this movie should have even greater appeal. I was at NYCC when Sophie Turner and Tye Sherridan showed up to promote the movie. They seemed genuinely excited about their characters and how they approached the movie. They also had a lot more chemistry than James Marsden and Famke Jannsen. I think that can only bode well for how this movie will portray the Cyclops/Jean relationship. We saw the connection begin in X-Men Apocalypse. This could really take it to a new level and I'm really looking forward to seeing the finished product.

As for reshoots, every movie does that. Infinity War, Deadpool 2, and Spider-Man Homecoming all had significant reshoots. That didn't stop the movie from being good. I would rather a movie refine itself as much as possible to give the best possible result.

Actions speak louder than words. It's been 19 years, six movies, and they still can't let go of Xavier/Magneto angst. Why is Magneto even here? He's been in six movies in prominent roles, which is three too many for a character who's mostly been a villain and an occasional anti-hero at best. Not to mention the fact that literally every single movie gives good reasons for him to NOT be in the next movie, but he still gets shoehorned in the plot anyway. He wasn't in the original story, nor in any of the adaptations that I know of.

Of course, this isn't enough, we gotta also throw Genosha here, or how else could Magneto have his man-pain storyline?

The costumes that were kind of inspired from the movies to begin with, and get made fun of in the very next run, yeah be faithful to that, sure Fox.

MYSTIQUE. Goddamm Mystique.

Oh, no Wolverine? Jeez, Fox should be given an award for that.

Dark Phoenix had more extensive reshoots than normal, it went for like a month, usually they only take two weeks or so.

[Ulfhammer]

Actions speak louder than words. It's been 19 years, six movies, and they still can't let go of Xavier/Magneto angst. Why is Magneto even here? He's been in six movies in prominent roles, which is three too many for a character who's mostly been a villain and an occasional anti-hero at best. Not to mention the fact that literally every single movie gives good reasons for him to NOT be in the next movie, but he still gets shoehorned in the plot anyway. He wasn't in the original story, nor in any of the adaptations that I know of.

Of course, this isn't enough, we gotta also throw Genosha here, or how else could Magneto have his man-pain storyline?

The costumes that were kind of inspired from the movies to begin with, and get made fun of in the very next run, yeah be faithful to that, sure Fox.

MYSTIQUE. Goddamm Mystique.

Oh, no Wolverine? Jeez, Fox should be given an award for that.

Dark Phoenix had more extensive reshoots than normal, it went for like a month, usually they only take two weeks or so.

I think this is exactly the problem I have with this approach as well. We know one movie is already incredibly over-reaching to try and tell the entire PS\DPS in one shot. Having to carve out significant screen time for Mystique and Magneto in a story that has to be this compact is going from a stretch to pretty much impossible to pull off.

[MarvelMaster616]

Actions speak louder than words. It's been 19 years, six movies, and they still can't let go of Xavier/Magneto angst. Why is Magneto even here? He's been in six movies in prominent roles, which is three too many for a character who's mostly been a villain and an occasional anti-hero at best. Not to mention the fact that literally every single movie gives good reasons for him to NOT be in the next movie, but he still gets shoehorned in the plot anyway. He wasn't in the original story, nor in any of the adaptations that I know of.

Of course, this isn't enough, we gotta also throw Genosha here, or how else could Magneto have his man-pain storyline?

The costumes that were kind of inspired from the movies to begin with, and get made fun of in the very next run, yeah be faithful to that, sure Fox.

MYSTIQUE. Goddamm Mystique.

Oh, no Wolverine? Jeez, Fox should be given an award for that.

Dark Phoenix had more extensive reshoots than normal, it went for like a month, usually they only take two weeks or so.

I think this is exactly the problem I have with this approach as well. We know one movie is already incredibly over-reaching to try and tell the entire PS\DPS in one shot. Having to carve out significant screen time for Mystique and Magneto in a story that has to be this compact is going from a stretch to pretty much impossible to pull off.

Yet, they were able to pull off Days of Future Past. They were able to pull off Logan, which was inspired by Old Man Logan. Again, I'm seeing excuses and not reasons. It feels so petty because this movie has the potential to give us the Cyclops/Jean moments we never got in the previous trilogy. Like it or not, this movie can't exist in a vacuum. It's not focused like Logan. It builds off of what we saw in X-Men: Apocalypse, which established the Cyclops/Jean relationship and raised the profile of the X-Men. It just feels like everyone is setting up standards they know cannot be reached without redoing the entire trilogy from scratch and the X-Men are already going to the MCU so you're going to get your wish. In that case, why not just enjoy Dark Phoenix for what it is? Even if you don't like Jennifer Lawrence's Mystique, can't you still enjoy the movie for the Scott/Jean moments we're likely to get?

[FUBAR007]

Pretty much.

I just wonder how P.R. would play later when they reunite. Since, clearly, they forgave one another ... then why are they pulling another will-they-won’t they on us?

I’m confused.

A storytelling bias toward drama and conflict. I think that, from the creative team's point of view, Scott and Jean picking up where they left off and working things out like adults would be boring and "too easy". I think they're ignoring storytelling possibilities there, including new drama and new conflict, but that's just my opinion.

JDW, Rosenberg, and company have a story they want to tell. It could be awesome; it could be crap. We'll just have to wait and see.

[FUBAR007]

Why do you think it looks like a bomb? I think it looks great. It has the X-men going into space. It has comics-accurate costumes inspired by Frank Quietly. It's not centered around Wolverine for once. We've also seen hints that Jean will actually show some Phoenix-level flare, something we never saw in X3. It also might actually do the Cyclops/Jean relationship justice. What's not to like?

What a lot of fans really want is a faithful, note-for-note adaptation of the Dark Phoenix Saga. For a host of reasons, they're not going to get that.*

The XCU is it's own thing. It's never been a straight adaptation of the comics. It takes themes and elements from the comics to tell its own stories, and fans should engage it with that in mind. IMO, it's best to approach it as an AU and judge it in those terms.

Personally, I'll be satisfied with Dark Phoenix as long as it's better than X3, captures the right thematic notes from the comics, and successfully shows the general public why Scott and Jean's relationship is such a core element of the X-Men mythos. Movie audiences have never gotten the case for why Jean chooses Scott over Logan, and it's up to this film to present that case.

*The 90s cartoon came pretty close, and it took an entire season! A straight adaptation to film would take a trilogy of movies at a minimum.

[Ulfhammer]

Yet, they were able to pull off Days of Future Past. They were able to pull off Logan, which was inspired by Old Man Logan. Again, I'm seeing excuses and not reasons. It feels so petty because this movie has the potential to give us the Cyclops/Jean moments we never got in the previous trilogy. Like it or not, this movie can't exist in a vacuum. It's not focused like Logan. It builds off of what we saw in X-Men: Apocalypse, which established the Cyclops/Jean relationship and raised the profile of the X-Men. It just feels like everyone is setting up standards they know cannot be reached without redoing the entire trilogy from scratch and the X-Men are already going to the MCU so you're going to get your wish. In that case, why not just enjoy Dark Phoenix for what it is? Even if you don't like Jennifer Lawrence's Mystique, can't you still enjoy the movie for the Scott/Jean moments we're likely to get?

DoFP was a much, much shorter story.

Yes, let's all stay hopeful, fine. That's a good message. X3 was a huge disappointment for me. The formula seems to have changed slightly. Maybe it'll be enough.

I think we all want pretty much the same things out of this movie. For me it's three very specific elements.

First, as Fubar mentioned, the DPS saga makes a case for why these two are a couple. The movie needs to find a way to succeed at this somehow.
Secondly, the team needs to rally around Jean even though they know she's off the rails. This is one of my favorite elements of UXM 137 and sets up for;
Jean's sacrifice, which only really works in the context of the two previous elements. The movie needs to setup the tug-of-war between the temptation of limitless power and limitless destruction against Jean's humanity.

If it can do that, then I think it will have succeeded at hitting the most important story beats.

[PsychoEFrost]

DoFP was a much, much shorter story.

Yes, let's all stay hopeful, fine. That's a good message. X3 was a huge disappointment for me. The formula seems to have changed slightly. Maybe it'll be enough.

I think we all want pretty much the same things out of this movie. For me it's three very specific elements.

First, as Fubar mentioned, the DPS saga makes a case for why these two are a couple. The movie needs to find a way to succeed at this somehow.
Secondly, the team needs to rally around Jean even though they know she's off the rails. This is one of my favorite elements of UXM 137 and sets up for;
Jean's sacrifice, which only really works in the context of the two previous elements. The movie needs to setup the tug-of-war between the temptation of limitless power and limitless destruction against Jean's humanity.

If it can do that, then I think it will have succeeded at hitting the most important story beats.

Which they have to do in addition to giving McAvoy, Fassbender, and Lawrence their pre-requisite story time. Unless this movie is 3 and a half hours long, I don't see it.

[Ulfhammer]

Which they have to do in addition to giving McAvoy, Fassbender, and Lawrence their pre-requisite story time. Unless this movie is 3 and a half hours long, I don't see it.

Pretty much. I'm all for being hopeful a project close to our hearts is done as well as it can be on the big screen. Sometimes though you can just look at a project and realize it's not setup for success. Of course that assumes we're measuring success the same way they are. That's probably not the case. The general public is so clueless about what the DPS saga actually is that even being true to the original themes is probably more than this movie is actually trying to do.

[Abbz_A]

A storytelling bias toward drama and conflict. I think that, from the creative team's point of view, Scott and Jean picking up where they left off and working things out like adults would be boring and "too easy". I think they're ignoring storytelling possibilities there, including new drama and new conflict, but that's just my opinion.

JDW, Rosenberg, and company have a story they want to tell. It could be awesome; it could be crap. We'll just have to wait and see.

If it’s well-written, I’m down for a cute romantic re-build up story. I hope it delivers.

[Havok83]