Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[PrezValentine]

I found many fans that think that Bishop was ruined for the sake of Hope's story, so most probably waw him as a victim too. Even when the crap that Bishop pulled is still canon and there is not "he was brainwhased" explanation yet. If you ask me, i think that is just a weird "levelling the field" mentality. Like "Scott got his romance with someone that wasn't Jean, she should have chance to do the sam", well fair enougth, but there is probably better choices than Bishop or Namor lol.

It's a "if MCU Thanos wrote comics" mentality. Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.

And yeah, plenty of viable characters these days, particularly out of the X-Men, but Jean needs some time with Lucas "If it's a child and redhead, make it dead" Bishop.

[TheDeadSpace]

It's a "if MCU Thanos wrote comics" mentality. Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.

And yeah, plenty of viable characters these days, particularly out of the X-Men, but Jean needs some time with Lucas "If it's a child and redhead, make it dead" Bishop.

Yeah, well, I guess that's how the cookie crumbles.

Also, not trying to be mischievous here or start an argument, but what exactly did Emma do to Jean that was so horrible? Apart from her involvement with the DPS, I feel as if I'm missing something based on how its described. This might not be the best place to ask but I'm just curious as to if I ever missed something.

[TheCape]

Yeah, well, I guess that's how the cookie crumbles.

Also, not trying to be coy here or start an argument, but what exactly did Emma do to Jean that was so horrible? Apart from her involvement with the DPS, I feel as if I'm missing something based on how its described. This might not be the best place to ask but I'm just curious as to if I ever missed something.

Emma hadn't done much against Jean, beyond DPS and having an affair with Scott to spite her. Well, she did posses Storm body and it was pretty much implied that she got intimate with Shaw while using it, my guest is that Jean wouldn't be happy about that, considering that Ororo is like a sister to her.

[TheCape]

It's a "if MCU Thanos wrote comics" mentality. Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.

And yeah, plenty of viable characters these days, particularly out of the X-Men, but Jean needs some time with Lucas "If it's a child and redhead, make it dead" Bishop.

My guest that it comes from people that weren't very into the relationship, but didn't have any reason to complain until Morrison. Understandable, but some people take it to the extreme.

Man, i realñy feel bad for Bishop fans, they really got a bad deal with Messiah Complex.

[TheDeadSpace]

Thanks for the info. Interesting considering the dynamic Storm and Emma had. Yet I feel as if I'm missing something. Not that those aren't horrible, but still.

Either way, I should probably change the subject. I don't want to offend anyone.

[Can'tHexTheX]

Balance in relationships only makes sense.

[Ulfhammer]

SO much posted here that I just fundamentally disagree with. Scott has ALWAYS been this self loathing, insecure character? Just simply not true. HEY rendered the affair noot? Uh, no. Morrison's Scott was so screwed up in the head that he isn't responsible for the affair because he couldn't tell right from wrong? He had been deeply traumatized, as many, many heroes had over the years, he wasn't a walking basket case.

What was done to Scott in HER will, I suspect, continue to be a source of debate because it is simply being interpreted differently by different people. In my view, it contradicts what Morrison said in multiple interviews if Jean made Scott choose Emma, put feelings there that weren't there. For the umpteenth time, she freed him to choose her. Freed him of the despair and regret that kept him from moving on with his life. LOL, Morrison envisioned Scemma as the next great X couple. And the author's intent is that Jean out Scott's feelings for Emma there? I sure don't think so and I'd wager money that wasn't the author's intent.

HCT is open to interpretation. I admitted as much, then went on to explain my interpretation. But the affair didn't end in a relationship between Scott and Emma. HCT did that. Before HCT, no Scott and Emma relationship. After HCT, Scott and Emma relationship. It's entirely binary. HCT clearly shows us a Scott that was exiting all things X-Men, including Emma. Logan explains it all to Jean here:



By the end of the issue Jean had pulled her PF strings and the exact same panels are rerun with Scott choicing to stay with the School and with Emma. Exactly what Jean did is arguable. The end result is not.

The affair on is own did not lead to Scott and Emma's relationship. It lead to a disastrous future. Jean's interference lead to the relationship. This isn't really debatable.

As for Scott having always been self-loathing and insecure, I find you're argument on that point mind-boggling. Scott has been consistently portrayed as lacking in self worth since the Silver Age.

Scott doesn't believe he's worthy of leadership but Charles does and forces the point (UXM 7)



Scott doesn't believe can compete with Warren for Jean's affections, nor does he believe he even has a right to do so. (UXM 14)



Scott's self loathing again surfaces in the first several issues of X-Factor culminating in him ending up a drunk living on the docks of Long Island. Screenshot limits prevent me posting that, but I think you'll recall what I'm referring to.

Post "The Twelve" Scott refuses to be honest with Jean about his thoughts because he fears they will drive her away, leading to him confiding in Emma. People focus on the confiding in Emma part, but it's his failure to believe that Jean will accept him that is the underlying driver. Emma points this out to Scott herself, telling him that with her there's no judgementa and nothing is taboo with her. Emma understands that what's driving Scott and Jean apart is Scott's insecurities and she leans into that heavily to drive the affair.

After Jean's death in Planet X, Scott's so wracked with guilt and grief that he folds up on the X-Men permanently.

In Whedon's Astonishing X-Men #1, Logan confronts Scott over moving on so quickly with Emma. This leads to a fight on the front lawn. Scott loses control here because part of him continues to feel guilty about what he's doing. Not the actions of a self-assured individual.

As time goes on, Scott's pre-existing insecurities are compounded by the choices he's made that he regrets. This becomes a deepening cycle of regret and remorse, culminating in Last Will and Testament, where Scott doesn't feel he deserves to be Charles' heir.

Scott's only confidence comes through his leadership abilities. When the mask comes off, the insecurities always override his sense of self-worth. This is one of Scott's most defining features.

As always, different strokes for different folks. Everyone is entitled to their view, but that doesn't mean I have to share that view. Like with Jean and Scott as individual characters. Seems to me that the majority here are looking for them to be a whole lot more flawed than I am. Sort of moot with Scott at this point, but when I was reading the books not what I was looking for. Every character has some flaw. However, there is flawed and there is FLAWED.

No, you don't have to share that view. I've already made my case for why Scott is, on balance, a hero. Scott's relative "worthiness" when it comes to Jean comes entirely down to how the writers perceive that Jean percieve's Scott's actions. Given her ability to overcome her concerns about Scott's behavior during and after the DPS and his marriage to Maddie, I perceive that Jean understands Scott's motivations and accepts his flaws. That's also been true since the Silver Age. I think she knew exactly what she was getting into with Scott, especially over time, and on balance decided that the positive outweighed the negative. After all this is a woman who as at various points believed herself to be the greatest mass murderer in human history. She understands guilt and how it can effect self-worth. Even though she didn't succumb to that guilt, I suspect she knows that Scott doesn't have to the tools to deal with that, given his in-built insecurities.

[phoenixzero23]

Nothing of Morrison had anything good to say about jott. In his run, they wrent in love that's it, it sucks but i'm not going to play mental gimnastics to deny it. Wich is sad because if this were a romance of a few years i could understand that shallow interpretation but there are decades and some of the best stories about them being a great couple. There is a reason why for fost of the x-men story they were considered the best couple. Even after morrison to this day they are still romantically linked. Which is what makes ridiculous this portrayal of they sucking or not being that much in to each other, or not being in love.

[Ulfhammer]

Yeah, well, I guess that's how the cookie crumbles.

Also, not trying to be mischievous here or start an argument, but what exactly did Emma do to Jean that was so horrible? Apart from her involvement with the DPS, I feel as if I'm missing something based on how its described. This might not be the best place to ask but I'm just curious as to if I ever missed something.

Better here than the Jean appreciation thread I suppose...

You've kind of thrown the DPS in as an aside. I don't consider this a minor matter. Emma facilitated Mastermind's access to Jean's conscious and subconscious perceptions. This had two effects. The first effect was to allow Mastermind to essentially seduce and rape Jean under the guise of a telepathic romance. The second effect was that it allowed Mastermind to unleash Jean's underlying thirst for power and sadistic nature. This had broad ramifications for Jean, as well as the rest of the X-Men for years to come, culminating in her death in UXM 137 and by consequence, Scott's marriage to Maddie. These are not minor offenses. This lead to a confrontation where Jean humiliated Emma and caused her significant mental damage.

Obviously Emma held a grudge and at the first possible opportunity, she took full advantage of Scott's vulnerability to try and destroy their marriage. Also not a minor offense.

Beyond these two incidents, Emma has had a long history of her single minded focus and pragmatism causing grief for those around here. Her Hellions were essentially trained by Emma to become heartless and soulless killing machines. Firestar in particular had a rough time under her gentle tutelage. Ultimately most of Hellions died during a conflict with Trevor Fitzroy. Her history with Gen X isn't much better. Her partnership with her sister Adrienne lead to Synch's death. This prompted Emma to murder Adrienne in cold blood which lead to the rest of Gen X deserting her at the end of the run. The X-Men knew all this history and were rightfully distrustful of Emma's methods and motives.

It was always shocking to me that Scott would even consider confiding in Emma, let alone being attracted to her. The DPS and it's fallout was deeply painful for Scott and devastating for Jean. The fact that he could fall for someone who had done that kind of damage to Jean is mind boggling. This is part of the reason I ultimately accept that Jean was mostly responsible for Scott's relationship with Emma, because I just don't see how he could have gotten there on his own. The X-Men have a history of getting past some pretty terrible acts to accept certain individuals like Magento, but the trust generally was never there, and for good reason. There are exceptions, but they're very few like Rogue. Rogue had to work for many years to be accepted and truly trusted by the X-Men. Emma was an exception to that, but only for Scott. That's another point in favor of him being externally effected.

[phoenixzero23]

I generally don't like Jean and Emma interactions, what Emma did there againts Jean was wrong but she is not to blame for the DPS saga either.
I don't like Emma but it would be foolish to blame everything on her.
Scott messed up that's it. That sucks but it happens in real life.

[TheDeadSpace]

Well, this certainly expands my view on the perception of their relationship; however, I'm not sure I would blame Emma for the actions of Mastermind. Emma came off more as a pawn of the hellfire club and was removed before events escalated. I won't defend Scott's actions or desire to engage in a relationship with Emma, but part of it might have been the fact that he perceived himself as disgusting/flawed and thus felt undeserving of Jean but not of Emma.

Either way, Emma appears to be quite a sensitive subject to many and I'd rather go back to discussing Jott. This discussion might be more aligned to Scott's or Emma's thread to be honest.

[Ulfhammer]

I generally don't like Jean and Emma interactions, what Emma did there againts Jean was wrong but she is not to blame for the DPS saga either.
I don't like Emma but it would be foolish to blame everything on her.
Scott messed up that's it. That sucks but it happens in real life.

Emma created the device that allowed Mastermind to do what he did. Emma created it specifically for the purpose of undermining Jean's mental faculties allowing the Hellfire Club to exert control over her and by extension, a cosmic force. She's as responsible as any other member of the Inner Circle, and perhaps even more so because success didn't depend on Leland or Pierce or Shaw. It depended on Emma and Mastermind.

I'm more than willing to give Emma credit for what she did to support the X-Men and mutant interests in the late 90's through IvX, but there's no doubt in my mind she was an unrepentant monster prior to Gen X. She mourned her failures with the Hellions and Gen X but she never truly showed remorse for playing her part in Jean's fall into Dark Phoenix, and the many and heinous consequences that brought.

As for the rest I'm assuming that you're talking about the affair. I think it's pretty well established that everyone messed up. It seems you blame Scott entirely for that and I suppose it's simpler to see it that way. The reality is that at any point, Scott, Jean or Emma could have prevented it. None of them did, and they all had their reasons, but it doesn't change that they could have.

[lurkerforyears]

Emma created the device that allowed Mastermind to do what he did. Emma created it specifically for the purpose of undermining Jean's mental faculties allowing the Hellfire Club to exert control over her and by extension, a cosmic force. She's as responsible as any other member of the Inner Circle, and perhaps even more so because success didn't depend on Leland or Pierce or Shaw. It depended on Emma and Mastermind.

I'm more than willing to give Emma credit for what she did to support the X-Men and mutant interests in the late 90's through IvX, but there's no doubt in my mind she was an unrepentant monster prior to Gen X. She mourned her failures with the Hellions and Gen X but she never truly showed remorse for playing her part in Jean's fall into Dark Phoenix, and the many and heinous consequences that brought.

As for the rest I'm assuming that you're talking about the affair. I think it's pretty well established that everyone messed up. It seems you blame Scott entirely for that and I suppose it's simpler to see it that way. The reality is that at any point, Scott, Jean or Emma could have prevented it. None of them did, and they all had their reasons, but it doesn't change that they could have.

the issue about Mastermind and Emma is that that part of Emma (the engineer inventor scientist part) has been pretty much soft retconned, she hasnt done anything like that since the death of the Hellions.
Soule had Emma say in IvX something about how she wouldnt have passed science class at high school without looking sexy for the teacher, something awful like that, and Mastermind and his daughters pretty much gained the ability to do that thing without needing any machine afterwards.
the mechanism was created because Byrne and Claremont knew the silver age limitations of 60s Mastermind, so they had to find a way that respected continuity for him to be able to do what he did.
Now writers dont care about continuity or the silver age limits of powers much anymore.

[Ulfhammer]

Well, this certainly expands my view on the perception of their relationship; however, I'm not sure I would blame Emma for the actions of Mastermind. Emma came off more as a pawn of the hellfire club and was removed before events escalated. I won't defend Scott's actions or desire to engage in a relationship with Emma, but part of it might have been the fact that he perceived himself as disgusting/flawed and thus felt undeserving of Jean but not of Emma.

Either way, Emma appears to be quite a sensitive subject to many and I'd rather go back to discussing Jott. This discussion might be more aligned to Scott's or Emma's thread to be honest.

Fair enough. Remember that you were the one who asked the question.

[TheDeadSpace]

Fair enough. Remember that you were the one who asked the question.

I mean, yeah, and I wouldn't mind continuing the conversation if others were okay with it. I feel that it's quite relevant to some of the previous topics recently brought up and I was hoping for some clarification. I pushed at a topic and will accept where it led as my own doing.