Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[Ulfhammer]

Didn't Scott have a relationship with Frenzy during Age of X? I don't think Emma held that against anyone considering the circumstances. I agree that it is problematic with these relationships under false realities/memories and there should be a discussion of consent for all involved.

I would think the X-Men always feel violated when these things happen.

Don't be fooled, Emma was not impressed. IIRC she threatened Frenzy in no uncertain terms about any attempt to come at Scott. Of course that's Emma.

Given the X-Men long and storied history with mind control, memory manipulation (including Charles) cloning, body swapping\snatching etc, the whole idea of consent is kind of laughable at this point don't you think?

[TheDeadSpace]

I don't think that would happen. I don't cared for scemma but if Jean is with Bishop then Cyke being with the evil king is no problem. Most of Cyclops fans don't cared who he is with. Jean fans would have nothing to complain about seeing as she will be in a relationship. The people hurt would be Jott fans who want to see Jott. I am a Jott fan but I see no point innbeing hurt if Scott is with Emma. It would sting for some time but it would pass.

Yeah, that's where I currently am. I'm just interested in seeing Scott written properly with respect to what's happened. This possible love triangle doesn't seem as if Marvel is entirely concerned with that. It's all a bit upsetting.

[Ulfhammer]

I get it you don't like Emma but Jott's main problem is not Emma. This relationship main problem is editorial and the writers wanting to sell and for them looks like drama sells. It might sell one issue but the book it self becomes boring and it gets drop by the 3rd issue. Question for you, how would you feel if BloodStorm came back and Cyclops and her pick off things?

Also I feel like Bishop is being force to Jean because her fans dislike for Scott. To them anyone will do aslong as shenflips one to Scott. What would old Nate say about that relationship, does Jean even cared what Bishop made Nate and Hope live like. Like I said nice step mom only when their dad is around.

Let Jean and Bishop be but please treat Jott and Scott well.

The problem here is with the means to achieve the motivation. In order to make any potential relationship Jean has with anyone else work, by definition it has to survive her and Scott reuniting. The one thing that was merciful about Jean's death in Planet X was that she was never around to have her nose rubbed in Scott and Emma's relationship (with the mild exclusion of Endsong). That's the logical endpoint of any relationship Jean has that survives AoXM.

So remember Whedon's Astonishing? Just imagine Jean came back to life and ended up on the team at the end of that run without Scott and Emma "moderating" their behavior. Marvel's pursuit of this plot-line is on a collision course with that exact outcome with Scott on the receiving end. JDW says drama is good for the books and good for sales. That's maximum drama for these two with repercussions no one can predict. Emma, Logan, the Cuckoos and a number of others would have a field day at Scott's expense in that scenario. Losing the love of his life and his position in the X-Men all in one fell swoop, and having to watch it all happen and watch his teammates see how much he's lost. This has the potentially to make everyone involved look spiteful and vindictive.

Now that may very well be an unrealistic scenario, but I can certainly see a number of interests that would like nothing more than to take Scott down a peg or two, and this is an insidious way of doing it because it can easily be cloaked by "he did it first" or even better "it's about damn time" logic. JDW thinks Scott was a very naughty boy post M-Day and there's certainly a group of folks who would suggest Scott has something like this coming.

I noted that a common theme around here is "Jean can do what she wants as long as Scott isn't dragged through the mud". For good or ill, these characters are deeply and endearingly linked. Jean's actions effect Scott and vice versa. Jean embracing an AU ship in the 616 and prancing around in some fog of puppy love, along with all the baggage that would accompany that, would be just about the worst punishment any writer could dream up for Scott.

I really hope my mind is just falling down the rabbit hole here, but can any of you really say this scenario isn't possible or even reasonable?

[Ulfhammer]

Well when you put it that way I can see your point. Sadly we all know that if Bishop and Jean are together after the AU the Emma and Scott would be a sure thing to happen. I feel like he would finally let go of his love for Jean and maintain a relationship with Emma. When Bishop and Jean break up because we know Bishop is just being used here for that, Emma's hold on Scott would remain there.

Emma was honest with Scott that she wanted to work things out and she said a part of him did too. We are in for it, I will just keep up with Cyclops and if they trash him well hello DC xD

Scott has never shown an ability to get over Jean despite multiple deaths, marriage to Maddie and the birth of Nathan, and an long and verily intense relationship with Emma. Nothing in his history suggests he's capable of it. If all the sudden he becomes capable of it, I'm not sure he's the Scott I know. One of his deep and abiding core characteristics is his feelings for Jean. They've been there since nearly the very beginning.

No offense to Emma, who I grew to like very much, and was one of the few X-Men I respected post AvX -- She ain't no Jean Grey and could never replace her when it comes to Scott. Marvel had many years to prove it could be done and failed miserably.

[bell]

Scott has never shown an ability to get over Jean despite multiple deaths, marriage to Maddie and the birth of Nathan, and an long and verily intense relationship with Emma. Nothing in his history suggests he's capable of it. If all the sudden he becomes capable of it, I'm not sure he's the Scott I know. One of his deep and abiding core characteristics is his feelings for Jean. They've been there since nearly the very beginning.

No offense to Emma, who I grew to like very much, and was one of the few X-Men I respected post AvX -- She ain't no Jean Grey and could never replace her when it comes to Scott. Marvel had many years to prove it could be done and failed miserably.

I am a Jott fan however Jean is not my favorite character, Scott is. Putting my self to fail in holding out hope for Jean and Scott is not something I want. Jott is not going to happen I accepted that. No point in being agry on what ever they make of Jean's love life. You and I both know that Scott pick Jean everytime. Even with a kid his heart was always with Jean. I think if Jean would have come back Emma and Scott relationship would have lasted a few issue after that and Scott back with Jean. My point is now, can Jean do the same thing? Can she pick Scott just like he picked her over Maddie? Well apparently she can not but that is too soon to say. We need a thing that is a eye for a eye to make the relationship equal?

Scott would always love Jean, Jean loves Scott but writers don't want this. So why should we pay for something we don't want to read or see. I stop with the Superman comics when rebirth hit and I can do the same with X men. Actually I have not pick up a x men booked after the poison arc. I read them off friends. My point is, I am okay with Jean moving on if Scott is not bash. If he is then so long x men.

It sucks to be a jott fan and knowing the history this two had, how ever writers now ignore old stories even if they are cannon. All they seem to cared is money but I cared and pay for a good story. If is drama well I be reading manga for ever sadly now One piece is ending

[Ulfhammer]

I am a Jott fan however Jean is not my favorite character, Scott is. Putting my self to fail in holding out hope for Jean and Scott is not something I want. Jott is not going to happen I accepted that. No point in being agry on what ever they make of Jean's love life. You and I both know that Scott pick Jean everytime. Even with a kid his heart was always with Jean. I think if Jean would have come back Emma and Scott relationship would have lasted a few issue after that and Scott back with Jean. My point is now, can Jean do the same thing? Can she pick Scott just like he picked her over Maddie? Well apparently she can not but that is too soon to say. We need a thing that is a eye for a eye to make the relationship equal?

Scott would always love Jean, Jean loves Scott but writers don't want this. So why should we pay for something we don't want to read or see. I stop with the Superman comics when rebirth hit and I can do the same with X men. Actually I have not pick up a x men booked after the poison arc. I read them off friends. My point is, I am okay with Jean moving on if Scott is not bash. If he is then so long x men.

It sucks to be a jott fan and knowing the history this two had, how ever writers now ignore old stories even if they are cannon. All they seem to cared is money but I cared and pay for a good story. If is drama well I be reading manga for ever sadly now One piece is ending

To be clear, I'm not angry. I'm voicing my opinion as I do on Twitter directly to creators because our opinions (at least used to) matter. I refuse to accept it because that simply means my small voice and what minor pressure I can apply to creators goes away.

You say the writers don't want Jean and Scott together but I actually disagree. They simply want to get there (or most of the way there) in the most tortured fashion possible. Here's why I know this; JDW, Brisson and Rosenberg have all admitted that these two are it for each other. Rosenberg may not want Jean and Scott to be together but he doesn't deny the gravitas of their relationship either. This is in line with the vast majority of X-Men writers over time, including Claremont (before he turned into a sourpuss) who was mostly responsible for making the couple a real item and helping Simonson reforge them in X-Factor (according to Simonson herself).

These creators know they have something special with this couple, and it's precisely because of that fact that they want to squeeze every red cent they can out of them. Why are Jean and Scott the most tortured X-Couple? Because that's the formula that has worked in the past and they believe will work in the future. If they ever definitively end them (if such a thing is possible) they know fans of the couple will check out. They don't want that. BUT, if they leave even the slightest possibility that they will end up together, us diehards will stick around because we love them that much.

[Abbz_A]

God Ulfhammer, your words and delivery are mesmerising. I honestly couldn’t have said it better. Where have you been?

Scott has never shown an ability to get over Jean despite multiple deaths, marriage to Maddie and the birth of Nathan, and an long and verily intense relationship with Emma. Nothing in his history suggests he's capable of it. If all the sudden he becomes capable of it, I'm not sure he's the Scott I know. One of his deep and abiding core characteristics is his feelings for Jean. They've been there since nearly the very beginning.

No offense to Emma, who I grew to like very much, and was one of the few X-Men I respected post AvX -- She ain't no Jean Grey and could never replace her when it comes to Scott. Marvel had many years to prove it could be done and failed miserably.

I gotta say; this is true. Scott just couldn’t get over Jean, and I reckon she can’t too. So, it will be weird if she chose AU ship over Scott.

I just read Rosenberg tweet n it says;
“ They (Jean n Scott) just came back. Give them some time to earn that love again.”

I do think the destination is Jott ... but it’s gonna be one hella of a ride.

[Ulfhammer]

God Ulfhammer, your words and delivery are mesmerising. I honestly couldn’t have said it better. Where have you been?

Thanks for the kind words. I think you may be overstating my abilities in this regard, but when passion moves the spirit, those who share that passion hear the meaning clearly.

I've been to the hell that every fan eventually ends up in when they get angsty enough... fanfic writing. I came to realize that I was writing about 10-20K words per week here and thought I'd channel that energy somewhere else for a while. I'll always wonder back here though. As much as this board has it's problems, this is the definitive stop for X-Men fan knowledge, passion and perspective.

I gotta say; this is true. Scott just couldn’t get over Jean, and I reckon she can’t too. So, it will be weird if she chose AU ship over Scott.

I just read Rosenberg tweet n it says;
“ They (Jean n Scott) just came back. Give them some time to earn that love again.”

I do think the destination is Jott ... but it’s gonna be one hella of a ride.

Agreed. I'd encourage all of us to remain hopeful. There's too much sizzle in the Jean and Scott steak for Marvel to let this ship drift out to sea.

Here's the tweet chain for anyone interested.

[JeisonWolf]

1- I can't lie i would get jealous for the bloodstorm thing but scott getting in a relationship is something that i have to accept too. Scott hooking up with another woman isn't the problem. But with emma would feel like a confirmation of him not caring about Jean. like any other woman would be scott exploring other things or because he can't be with Jean but emma would mean that he doesn't care about what happened.
2-Not all Jean fans hate Scott. In fact many like him, there are some that do dislike him after morrison and that's reasonable, they are few but very vocal.

Scott has already loved Emma, ​​maybe not as much as Jean, but he has already loved her. If he sees Jean with another, well ... Scott tends to think the worst of himself and really values ​​himself little, so it would not be surprising if he did not try anything with Jean after that, Emma will be there for Scott, she just like Jean really loves him, it would not be really weird that Scott decided to go back to Emma even if in principle it's just to forget Jean. Would this be a bad thing for Jott? Of course, but it would be equally bad or even worse for Jott if Jean start dating Logan. That Scott is alone until Jean decides to break with Bishop is something that will not happen. would be very cruel, it would have been very cruel that Jean came back and had to see Scott with Emma and he ignore her, Jean did not have such bad luck but it seems that Scott does.

[FUBAR007]

I just read Rosenberg tweet n it says;
“ They (Jean n Scott) just came back. Give them some time to earn that love again.”

I do think the destination is Jott ... but it’s gonna be one hella of a ride.

Agreed. I'd encourage all of us to remain hopeful. There's too much sizzle in the Jean and Scott steak for Marvel to let this ship drift out to sea.

Here's the tweet chain for anyone interested.

Called it. Once more on the merry-go-round.

Here's hoping it's closer in spirit to Louise Simonson's take on the relationship than Grant Morrison's. It's not enough to get me buying the books regularly again, but I'll continue to observe from a distance.

Side note: Rosenberg is wrong about there being few to no lasting marriages in superhero comics. Reed and Sue, Lois and Clark, Ralph and Sue Dibny (until she got fridged), Hector and Lyta, Garth (ok, well, Proty) and Imra, Jo and Tinya, Kent and Inza, Carter and Shiera, Alec and Abby. Technically, Bruce and Betty are still married, too, I think. Peter and MJ ran for 20 years until Quesada stuck his nose in. DC can make it work, and so can Marvel when it wants to. There's no law of physics precluding interesting stories being told with functional married couples; it's entirely a narrative choice by the writers and editors.

[Ulfhammer]

Called it. Once more on the merry-go-round.

Here's hoping it's closer in spirit to Louise Simonson's take on the relationship than Grant Morrison's. It's not enough to get me buying the books regularly again, but I'll continue to observe from a distance.

Side note: Rosenberg is wrong about there being few to no lasting marriages in superhero comics. Reed and Sue, Lois and Clark, Ralph and Sue Dibny (until she got fridged), Hector and Lyta, Garth (ok, well, Proty) and Imra, Jo and Tinya, Kent and Inza, Carter and Shiera, Alec and Abby. Technically, Bruce and Betty are still married, too, I think. Peter and MJ ran for 20 years until Quesada stuck his nose in. DC can make it work, and so can Marvel when it wants to. There's no law of physics precluding interesting stories being told with functional married couples; it's entirely a narrative choice by the writers and editors.

That's true. Sometimes you have to pick your battles. I was trying to get Matt to acknowledge exactly what you're saying... the fact that we are once more on the merry-go-round with these two, rehashing well tread ground. He's cagey though and detected my obvious ploy choosing not to engage on that point.

[FUBAR007]

That's true. Sometimes you have to pick your battles. I was trying to get Matt to acknowledge exactly what you're saying... the fact that we are once more on the merry-go-round with these two, rehashing well tread ground. He's cagey though and detected my obvious ploy choosing not to engage on that point.

Yeah, he, JDW, and co. have a story they want to tell here. Let's hope they get it right.

[JeisonWolf]

Called it. Once more on the merry-go-round.

Here's hoping it's closer in spirit to Louise Simonson's take on the relationship than Grant Morrison's. It's not enough to get me buying the books regularly again, but I'll continue to observe from a distance.

Side note: Rosenberg is wrong about there being few to no lasting marriages in superhero comics. Reed and Sue, Lois and Clark, Ralph and Sue Dibny (until she got fridged), Hector and Lyta, Garth (ok, well, Proty) and Imra, Jo and Tinya, Kent and Inza, Carter and Shiera, Alec and Abby. Technically, Bruce and Betty are still married, too, I think. Peter and MJ ran for 20 years until Quesada stuck his nose in. DC can make it work, and so can Marvel when it wants to. There's no law of physics precluding interesting stories being told with functional married couples; it's entirely a narrative choice by the writers and editors.

In fact they have not been together for a long time, I don't know if something has changed in the last months but in September of last year they were still separated.

Don't get confused, if I've learned something, is that in the comics none romance lasts forever (exept maybe Reed and Sue) but even Clark and Lois have been separated and not only talk about the new 52, ​​if not even before the flaspoint, DC was thinking about separating them but they preferred to use the flaspoint so as not to hurt the couple in case they decided to return in the future. So no, it's really hard for a couple to be durable in the comics, someday, as it was with Jott, a new writer or creative team could come who does not like them and then decides to separate them.

[FUBAR007]

In fact they have not been together for a long time, I don't know if something has changed in the last months but in September of last year they were still separated.

With Carter and Shiera, I was referring to the era before Zero Hour when they were both killed. The original Golden Age versions.

Don't get confused, if I've learned something, is that in the comics none romance lasts forever (exept maybe Reed and Sue) but even Clark and Lois have been separated and not only talk about the new 52, ​​if not even before the flaspoint, DC was thinking about separating them but they preferred to use the flaspoint so as not to hurt the couple in case they decided to return in the future. So no, it's really hard for a couple to be durable in the comics, someday, as it was with Jott, a new writer or creative team could come who does not like them and then decides to separate them.

Couples being physically separated for a storyline isn't the same as their marriage failing. Nor is characters' relationships being reset or eliminated via a continuity reboot (e.g. New 52 Superman and Lois).

Again, it's not a law of physics that all superhero marriages must end badly; it's a narrative choice by the writers and editors.

[JeisonWolf]

With Carter and Shiera, I was referring to the era before Zero Hour when they were both killed. The original Golden Age versions.



Couples being physically separated for a storyline isn't the same as their marriage failing. Nor is characters' relationships being reset or eliminated via a continuity reboot (e.g. New 52 Superman and Lois).

Again, it's not a law of physics that all superhero marriages must end badly; it's a narrative choice by the writers and editors.

The reboot change or delete the couples, look SM and WW have been deleted from the continuity with Rebirth or Carter and Shiera that if I'm not wrong at the present are not together, while in previous stories they were. The problem unfortunately, as already mentioned, is that marriages in comics are largely destined to failure because it makes the heroes look very old. This was the case of SM, that's why DC wanted to end his marriage with Lois and did it at the end in the new 52 where we also got a younger SM, you know, for the younger audience that is usually the target audience, now we have the old SM back, so I saw now they are allocating their stories largely to their former fans so it works perfectly.
but the main problem with Marvel is that unlike DC we don't have a big reboot as were the new 52 frequently, they continue to evolve but there comes a time that if the characters continue to evolve, well they will not be entirely liked by the target audience and that's when what happens with Scott and Jean in new X-men happens. Evolution of the character? on the contrary, a setback to how they were originally more or less.
But yes of course it's a narrative choice by the writers and editors.