Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[KangMiRae]

I saw the movie last night and I loved it! And yes, it has some great Scott/Jean moments. The movie does a great job of establishing that they are a couple, they are in love, and they fight for each other every step of the way. Scott definitely has some good moments. A few in particular really stand out. There's no love triangle to devalue their relationship, nor are there any contrivances that would make it seem less sincere. It doesn't build the whole story around the relationship. It is, as the title suggests, about Jean Grey and her struggles with the Phoenix. But if you were disappointed by X3, then Dark Phoenix should definitely deliver.

Oh God, yes! Now I'm excited. I go this Sunday

[FUBAR007]

Regarding Scott & Jean specifically, Scott has been apart from her at least as often as he isn't. If you count from GSXM #1 forward, he has been more years single or dating other women than he has been with Jean.

Scott and Jean became a couple in 1967 with X-Men vol. 1 #32. They remained a couple until #101 when she was replaced by the Phoenix. That was 1976, so 9 years initially. Scott was then with Phoenix-Jean until her suicide in #137. That was in 1980. So, depending on how you interpret the Jean/Phoenix retcon, that's potentially another 4 years.

Jean was resurrected in 1986. When exactly she and Scott qualify as "back together" is fuzzy and open to interpretation. Their first post-resurrection kiss is in X-Factor vol. 1 #13 in 1987, but that's just before Scott leaves to go back to Madelyne in Alaska. Of course, due to Sinister's shenanigans, all he finds is a corpse, and he's back in New York with Jean two issues later. The two of them (re?)consummate their relationship in #26 in 1988. From there, there are ups and downs, but they remain as a couple until Morrison's run, having married in 1994. Just when Scott and Jean no longer qualify as a couple is also fuzzy and up for debate. They were still married all the way up until Jean's death in New X-Men vol. 1 #150 in 2004. But, their relationship was already on the rocks when Morrison's run began in 2001. So, a minimalist interpretation would have them together from 1988-2001 i.e. 13 years; a maximalist interpretation would have them together from 1987-2004 i.e. 17 years.

Except for that brief scene in Phoenix Resurrection #5, they haven't been a couple since.

However, there are two potentially complicating factors: Scott's marriage to Madelyne and the relationship between Tyke and Jeen.

Madelyne was Jean's clone and animated by a fragment of Jean's soul. Therefore, there's an argument to be made that Scott and Madelyne's relationship was just an iteration of Scott and Jean's relationship. Also, Jean absorbed Madelyne's consciousness and memories at the end if Inferno. Scott and Madelyne were together from Uncanny X-Men vol. 1 #170 in 1983 to X-Factor vol. 1 #1 in 1986. So, that's potentially another 3 years.

Tyke and Jeen is even fuzzier. I don't recall them ever being formally together except for their kiss at the end of X-Men Blue. But, they were very close at points throughout Bunn's run. Then, there was that bit where they shared the psychic rapport for a while. OTOH, Scott was dating Bloodstorm there for a bit, too.

My personal opinion: the Phoenix-Jean years count, but the Madelyne years don't. Scott and Jean basically got back together when he came back from Alaska thinking Madelyne was dead. As far as Morrison's run, Scott and Jean were still married and still loved each other, even if they were both acting like immature idiots, all the way up to her death. I don't think Tyke/Jeen counts because it was more that they were building toward getting together than being together.

So, IMO: 1967-1980 (13 years) + 1987-2004 (17 years) = 30 years total.

For comparison, Scott and Emma's romantic relationship began with her seduction of him in New X-Men vol. 1 #131 in 2002. They remained together as a couple until AvX in 2012. While they continued to work together off-and-on until his death in Death of X, they weren't intimate. So, Scemma lasted 2002-2012 i.e. 10 years.

616 Jean and 616 Logan have never been together, so they're a zero. Scott and Betsy flirted and kissed once, but they were never together, either. So, another zero. Jean and Bishop have been a couple so far for just the Age of X-Man event which has lasted less than a year. The next closest rival relationship in terms of length would be Scott and Lee Forrester, but that amounted to a couple of flings over a couple of years.

The only substantial rival to Jott is Scemma. Even under the minimalist definition of Jott--1967-1976 (9 years) + 1988-2001 (13 years) for a total of 22 years--lasted more than twice as long.

Scott's never been with anyone as long or longer than he's been with Jean.

[KangMiRae]

Scott and Jean became a couple in 1967 with X-Men vol. 1 #32. They remained a couple until #101 when she was replaced by the Phoenix. That was 1976, so 9 years initially. Scott was then with Phoenix-Jean until her suicide in #137. That was in 1980. So, depending on how you interpret the Jean/Phoenix retcon, that's potentially another 4 years.

Jean was resurrected in 1986. When exactly she and Scott qualify as "back together" is fuzzy and open to interpretation. Their first post-resurrection kiss is in X-Factor vol. 1 #13 in 1987, but that's just before Scott leaves to go back to Madelyne in Alaska. Of course, due to Sinister's shenanigans, all he finds is a corpse, and he's back in New York with Jean two issues later. The two of them (re?)consummate their relationship in #26 in 1988. From there, there are ups and downs, but they remain as a couple until Morrison's run, having married in 1994. Just when Scott and Jean no longer qualify as a couple is also fuzzy and up for debate. They were still married all the way up until Jean's death in New X-Men vol. 1 #150 in 2004. But, their relationship was already on the rocks when Morrison's run began in 2001. So, a minimalist interpretation would have them together from 1988-2001 i.e. 13 years; a maximalist interpretation would have them together from 1987-2004 i.e. 17 years.

Except for that brief scene in Phoenix Resurrection #5, they haven't been a couple since.

However, there are two potentially complicating factors: Scott's marriage to Madelyne and the relationship between Tyke and Jeen.

Madelyne was Jean's clone and animated by a fragment of Jean's soul. Therefore, there's an argument to be made that Scott and Madelyne's relationship was just an iteration of Scott and Jean's relationship. Also, Jean absorbed Madelyne's consciousness and memories at the end if Inferno. Scott and Madelyne were together from Uncanny X-Men vol. 1 #170 in 1983 to X-Factor vol. 1 #1 in 1986. So, that's potentially another 3 years.

Tyke and Jeen is even fuzzier. I don't recall them ever being formally together except for their kiss at the end of X-Men Blue. But, they were very close at points throughout Bunn's run. Then, there was that bit where they shared the psychic rapport for a while. OTOH, Scott was dating Bloodstorm there for a bit, too.

My personal opinion: the Phoenix-Jean years count, but the Madelyne years don't. Scott and Jean basically got back together when he came back from Alaska thinking Madelyne was dead. As far as Morrison's run, Scott and Jean were still married and still loved each other, even if they were both acting like immature idiots, all the way up to her death. I don't think Tyke/Jeen counts because it was more that they were building toward getting together than being together.

So, IMO: 1967-1980 (13 years) + 1987-2004 (17 years) = 30 years total.

For comparison, Scott and Emma's romantic relationship began with her seduction of him in New X-Men vol. 1 #131 in 2002. They remained together as a couple until AvX in 2012. While they continued to work together off-and-on until his death in Death of X, they weren't intimate. So, Scemma lasted 2002-2012 i.e. 10 years.

616 Jean and 616 Logan have never been together, so they're a zero. Scott and Betsy flirted and kissed once, but they were never together, either. So, another zero. Jean and Bishop have been a couple so far for just the Age of X-Man event which has lasted less than a year. The next closest rival relationship in terms of length would be Scott and Lee Forrester, but that amounted to a couple of flings over a couple of years.

The only substantial rival to Jott is Scemma. Even under the minimalist definition of Jott--1967-1976 (9 years) + 1988-2001 (13 years) for a total of 22 years--lasted more than twice as long.

Scott's never been with anyone as long or longer than he's been with Jean.

The math adds up! I love that you were able to do this!

Chris Claremont said that Maddie was a catalyst for Jean to continue being with Scott. That's part of what makes her a tragedy. She herself thought she was more, but Sinister made her to be nothing more than that, a means for Jean to continue being with Scott, so I personally do count those years.

[KangMiRae]

On the note of Dark Phoenix and people over at the Jean Appreciation thread discussing never seeing the X-Men's teen years on screen, including Jott, here's an awesome piece of FoX-Men Jott dancing cutely by Miguel Mercado!



Artstation link: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/KEyJr

[JeisonWolf]

I saw the movie last night and I loved it! And yes, it has some great Scott/Jean moments. The movie does a great job of establishing that they are a couple, they are in love, and they fight for each other every step of the way. Scott definitely has some good moments. A few in particular really stand out. There's no love triangle to devalue their relationship, nor are there any contrivances that would make it seem less sincere. It doesn't build the whole story around the relationship. It is, as the title suggests, about Jean Grey and her struggles with the Phoenix. But if you were disappointed by X3, then Dark Phoenix should definitely deliver.

Nice, now I have more desire to see it.

[Ulfhammer]

This. Emma was the bigger threat to Jott than Logan ever was.

But imo, Jean may have had an attraction to Logan, but she loved Scott and so she'd never act on it. Scott was the man for her. After his ordeal & issues, he pulled away from her emotionally and stopped having sex with her. THAT is when Jean went to Logan. But that seemed more depression at her partner shutting down on her and seeking the wrong kind of comfort from someone else t-hat she really would rather be getting from Scott.

Similar to Buffy x Spike. Buffy spent many seasons hating Spike, then eventually tolerating him while rejecting his romantic advances. It took her dying and coming back to life with PTSD before she made her way to him sexually. Mentally stable, she wasn't the least interested. After their first night together, Spike says vampires get her hot & she says only one vampire got her hot, but that one is gone. Then she notes Spike is convenient.

And I see Jean as being the same with Logan. She's depressed & Scott has shut the door on her, so she went to him unwisely. But unlike thirsty as Hell Spike, Logan had the self-respect to say no. lol

Interesting that you should mention the Buffy connection. I wrote a post about this a few years back that you may find interesting about the parallels between Scott and Buffy's romantic history. Some of it's superficial, some less so.

The link's here:https://community.cbr.com/showthread...uffy-amp-Scott

[Ulfhammer]

Scott and Jean became a couple in 1967 with X-Men vol. 1 #32. They remained a couple until #101 when she was replaced by the Phoenix. That was 1976, so 9 years initially. Scott was then with Phoenix-Jean until her suicide in #137. That was in 1980. So, depending on how you interpret the Jean/Phoenix retcon, that's potentially another 4 years.

Jean was resurrected in 1986. When exactly she and Scott qualify as "back together" is fuzzy and open to interpretation. Their first post-resurrection kiss is in X-Factor vol. 1 #13 in 1987, but that's just before Scott leaves to go back to Madelyne in Alaska. Of course, due to Sinister's shenanigans, all he finds is a corpse, and he's back in New York with Jean two issues later. The two of them (re?)consummate their relationship in #26 in 1988. From there, there are ups and downs, but they remain as a couple until Morrison's run, having married in 1994. Just when Scott and Jean no longer qualify as a couple is also fuzzy and up for debate. They were still married all the way up until Jean's death in New X-Men vol. 1 #150 in 2004. But, their relationship was already on the rocks when Morrison's run began in 2001. So, a minimalist interpretation would have them together from 1988-2001 i.e. 13 years; a maximalist interpretation would have them together from 1987-2004 i.e. 17 years.

Except for that brief scene in Phoenix Resurrection #5, they haven't been a couple since.

However, there are two potentially complicating factors: Scott's marriage to Madelyne and the relationship between Tyke and Jeen.

Madelyne was Jean's clone and animated by a fragment of Jean's soul. Therefore, there's an argument to be made that Scott and Madelyne's relationship was just an iteration of Scott and Jean's relationship. Also, Jean absorbed Madelyne's consciousness and memories at the end if Inferno. Scott and Madelyne were together from Uncanny X-Men vol. 1 #170 in 1983 to X-Factor vol. 1 #1 in 1986. So, that's potentially another 3 years.

Tyke and Jeen is even fuzzier. I don't recall them ever being formally together except for their kiss at the end of X-Men Blue. But, they were very close at points throughout Bunn's run. Then, there was that bit where they shared the psychic rapport for a while. OTOH, Scott was dating Bloodstorm there for a bit, too.

My personal opinion: the Phoenix-Jean years count, but the Madelyne years don't. Scott and Jean basically got back together when he came back from Alaska thinking Madelyne was dead. As far as Morrison's run, Scott and Jean were still married and still loved each other, even if they were both acting like immature idiots, all the way up to her death. I don't think Tyke/Jeen counts because it was more that they were building toward getting together than being together.

So, IMO: 1967-1980 (13 years) + 1987-2004 (17 years) = 30 years total.

For comparison, Scott and Emma's romantic relationship began with her seduction of him in New X-Men vol. 1 #131 in 2002. They remained together as a couple until AvX in 2012. While they continued to work together off-and-on until his death in Death of X, they weren't intimate. So, Scemma lasted 2002-2012 i.e. 10 years.

616 Jean and 616 Logan have never been together, so they're a zero. Scott and Betsy flirted and kissed once, but they were never together, either. So, another zero. Jean and Bishop have been a couple so far for just the Age of X-Man event which has lasted less than a year. The next closest rival relationship in terms of length would be Scott and Lee Forrester, but that amounted to a couple of flings over a couple of years.

The only substantial rival to Jott is Scemma. Even under the minimalist definition of Jott--1967-1976 (9 years) + 1988-2001 (13 years) for a total of 22 years--lasted more than twice as long.

Scott's never been with anyone as long or longer than he's been with Jean.

Funny how many different ways you can answer this. I just couldn't justify the reprint years in the Silver Age as years they were together. Here's mine from February with an emphasis on the stupid time scale:

Are we counting Phoenix? How far into X-Factor before they become a couple? Are you counting New X-Men and is so how much? What about raising Nathan in the future? Let's take the strictest definition and ignore Phoenix and their time in the future. Let's also discount all of X-Factor before Issue 26 which definitively shows they are a couple again.

Let's assume that Jean and Scott are a couple by UXM 32 with a publication date of May, 1967. Let's assume they remained a couple until UXM 101 with a publication date of October, 1976. That's 2.25 years based on the sliding timescale. X-Factor 26 has a publication date of March, 1988. I'm cutting off Scott and Jean by NXM 136 with a publication date of March 2003. That's about 3.5 years on the sliding timescale. So following the strictest definition, they were a couple for about 5.75 years.

As for Emma and Scott, I'm counting Astonishing 1 with a publication date of July, 2004 as there start line. That's arguable but I think you can't really included the time Jean was still alive and HCT took basically no time at all. I'm counting the end of their relationship as AvX #11 with a publication date of November 2012. That give us a total span for Scemma of about 2 years on the sliding timescale.

As you can see, even under the strictest definition, Scemma was less than half the length of Jott. Using a more liberal, and probably accurate definition, Jott was more like about 8 times the length clocking in at about 16 years.

[Ulfhammer]

Funny how many different ways you can answer this. I just couldn't justify the reprint years in the Silver Age as years they were together. Here's mine from February with an emphasis on the stupid time scale:

Ok, I said I couldn't justify counting the Silver Age reprints years then noticed that exactly what I did. Whoops. Doesn't make nearly as much of a difference using the sliding scale mind you but Whoops. I must need a weekend or something.

[Ulfhammer]

I saw the movie last night and I loved it! And yes, it has some great Scott/Jean moments. The movie does a great job of establishing that they are a couple, they are in love, and they fight for each other every step of the way. Scott definitely has some good moments. A few in particular really stand out. There's no love triangle to devalue their relationship, nor are there any contrivances that would make it seem less sincere. It doesn't build the whole story around the relationship. It is, as the title suggests, about Jean Grey and her struggles with the Phoenix. But if you were disappointed by X3, then Dark Phoenix should definitely deliver.

Good to hear. I was reading an article about Kinberg saying the reason he didn't cast Jackman in DP was the age difference between Turner and Jackman because the "love story between the two was such a big part of the DPS". You can imagine what I was expecting after reading that so it's good to hear that the couple had some good moments in the film.

[Ulfhammer]

The problem is there isn't a lot of conflict there. Even the F4 has Johnny to be an agitator, and now they are older, Franklin and Valeria as well. Hence my previous idea of putting Emma and Magneto on the book.

There would be if you started the book in the current status quo instead of waiting for Jott to settle out to whatever it's going to be. I have a feeling both Nathan and Rachel wouldn't be able to stay out of that. Maybe not conflict per se but definitely drama.

[Omega Alpha]

There would be if you started the book in the current status quo instead of waiting for Jott to settle out to whatever it's going to be. I have a feeling both Nathan and Rachel wouldn't be able to stay out of that. Maybe not conflict per se but definitely drama.

Still, not that many conflicts, since, even if they weren't together, I can't imagine them fighting all the time. All the best teams work better with an agitator- even the 05 had Iceman, and on occasion, Beast, play that role, later the X-men really became popular when it had Wolverine, and later on Gambit and Emma, the Avengers with Hawkeye or even Tony himself, Illuminati with Namor, etc.

[Ulfhammer]

Still, not that many conflicts, since, even if they weren't together, I can't imagine them fighting all the time. All the best teams work better with an agitator- even the 05 had Iceman, and on occasion, Beast, play that role, later the X-men really became popular when it had Wolverine, and later on Gambit and Emma, the Avengers with Hawkeye or even Tony himself, Illuminati with Namor, etc.

Scott and Jean haven't been a team since the late 90's. A lot has happened since then. Scott's methods have changed, or did change prior to Rosenberg's Uncanny. Jean's gotten used to running the show without Scott around. Conflict seems inevitable, at least initially and not just about their history. Nathan creates conflict just by how he goes about things. Rachel still hasn't buried the hatchet with Scott and she's rather headstrong herself. All four of them in tight quarters could led to more conflict than you think. They each have a capability for it. It's mostly down to what traits the writers emphasize. Maybe you don't get a hundred issues out of it but you easily get a dozen.

[Omega Alpha]

Scott and Jean have been together in NXM, obviously. And nothing you say is an argument for not adding more characters to the mix rather than just the 4 of them, specially because 3 have identical power-sets, and you would hope a book has story potential for more than 12 issues.

[Ulfhammer]

Scott and Jean have been together in NXM, obviously. And nothing you say is an argument for not adding more characters to the mix rather than just the 4 of them, specially because 3 have identical power-sets, and you would hope a book has story potential for more than 12 issues.

Ok true for a smidgen of 00's they actually worked together but I'm hard pressed to recall an issue with the two of them in the field together that came out after Jan of 2000. The point is it's been a long, long time. Adjustments would have to be made.

Sure you could add more characters but that feels like admitting the four of them aren't compelling enough on their own. I was under the impression the book in question would theoretically be a limited series. Of course if you're thinking longer term you'd have to have a cast of guests rotating in. I'm still not sold on "the four can't stand on their own as the core cast" idea.

[Omega Alpha]

As a limited series, there's few teams that can't work. I was thinking long-term.