Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[Omega Alpha]

I'm not really convinced that the "will they or won't they" story lines drive sales or readership generally, especially as it relates to this couple. They've had almost none of it in their their history out side of a handful of Silver Age, early X-Factor and late NXM issues. That's maybe a twenty or so issues in a half century. I don't think many were reading those issues for that specific reason.

There was a question as to whether they were going to get married or not through the late 80's and early 90's but there were very few periods where their relationship itself was in question, only what form it would take. It seems like more of a style choice than a sales technique. It might be a reason for me not to buy a book. I just don't see how this would work for this couple in particular due in large part to the fact that it doesn't fit either of their styles. If we reset them back to their Silver Age characterizations sure, but given their history this seems like it's either they will or they won't with not a lot of dithering in between.

You looking it from your perspective and not Marvel: a will-they/won't they thing might irritate you or some fans that think it would be out of character, but would definitively be something that Marvel would try to for an easy cash grab and to generate hype to the book, even more if they play a triangle with Logan. For the vast majority of fans, it would be the most talked about thing. Plus, would make more sense than to reconnect them off-panel or after one issue in the end of Uncanny/Age of X-man.

All that said, I agree it seems unlikely Hickman will start his run with them together. It's not because it doesn't make sense, which it easily could given their history of reconnecting rapidly after separations but more due to what we've been told about editorials approach to romance and views on Scott in general.

You might dislike them apart, but makes zero sense from a writers perspective to just reconnect them off panel or after one or two issues, not only for sales, but the sheer amount of trauma and non-sense that Scott has been through all these years, and all the problems they faced through in general that can be explored and generate stories.

Also, editorials approach to romance and Scott's view may matter to Rosenberg, since he's not famous and popular enough to not have a run with a lot of editorial interference or direction, but Hickman is another matter: Marvel needs him to take over the X-men more than the other way around right now. His view on Scott for example, is a 180º of Marvel's view ever since AvX; this, in fact, it's part of the reason we have Scott right now in Uncanny with a "redemption" arc for bad stuff he supposedly did, but no one says what exactly, because Hickman doesn't give a crap and is very much a "Cyclops was right" kind of guy (also, why Emma isn't with this X-men team is simply because JDW hates her as a X-man)

Likewise, I doubt when Marvel handed him the command of the books and the line, they gave him an order of "Scott must/must not date Jean". He was brought in to overhaul the books entirely and redefine even how we see mutantkind and the history of the X-men because he's the only writer with enough popularity and credibility to do so currently, so I hardly think this will be a defining factor. He'll probably do what he thinks it's best for the story and the characters, and that's probably the best approach.

[lancer]

Well he did have ultimate Jean sleep with wolverine almost immediately. That left a bad taste in my mouth too even though she did end up with Scott lol

Here was my problem with that universe. How Marvel initially advertised it. It was supposed to be a way to introduce readers to the characters without the baggage of decades of continuity. Not some reular alternate universe where you expect stuff turned upside down. Characters who are completely different in personality. Heroes who are villains and vice versa. The Ultimate titles were not supposed to be that. Not as initially promoted. More like, basically, the 616 characters without the continuity barnacles.

I didn't think that was what we got. For exaomple, Storm's personality was completely different.
I also read ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN. Millar wrote THE ULTIMATES. I only read about that and seemed to me to be a complete bastardization of The Avengers. No thanks.

Millar had a forum on the old X Fan site. He said he put Jean with Logan because he liked them together in the first movie. It put a bad taste in my mouth, but didn't overly bother me. Way I looked at it, that is whe
re you do that story. That is where you do Scemms. For me, 616 were the real characters The characters I spent all that time reading. But stuff from that universe made it into some of the movies, so I guess it held some sway with creative people behind them.

There was one Jean moment I particularly enjoyed. Kept the team from executing Weapon X scientists. Read that scene and said, that's Jean Grey I only read about the first 25 issues. A lot of stuff I missed. I read Spider-Man a lot longer. Way past 50. I don't remember that Wolverine MJ stuff. Seems like an awfully scummy move.

[Omega Alpha]

He was also Cable. The ultimate universe was messed up.

Also, mutantkind started with experiments on soldiers in WWII. One of those was...Wolverine. So, Wolverine was the past, the present and the future of the Ultimate Universe. Overall, the X-men in general weren't much in Ultimate Universe (including Teen Scott & Jean). probably the weakest of the books overall.

[Decoy]

You looking it from your perspective and not Marvel: a will-they/won't they thing might irritate you or some fans that think it would be out of character, but would definitively be something that Marvel would try to for an easy cash grab and to generate hype to the book, even more if they play a triangle with Logan. For the vast majority of fans, it would be the most talked about thing. Plus, would make more sense than to reconnect them off-panel or after one issue in the end of Uncanny/Age of X-man.



You might dislike them apart, but makes zero sense from a writers perspective to just reconnect them off panel or after one or two issues, not only for sales, but the sheer amount of trauma and non-sense that Scott has been through all these years, and all the problems they faced through in general that can be explored and generate stories.

Also, editorials approach to romance and Scott's view may matter to Rosenberg, since he's not famous and popular enough to not have a run with a lot of editorial interference or direction, but Hickman is another matter: Marvel needs him to take over the X-men more than the other way around right now. His view on Scott for example, is a 180º of Marvel's view ever since AvX; this, in fact, it's part of the reason we have Scott right now in Uncanny with a "redemption" arc for bad stuff he supposedly did, but no one says what exactly, because Hickman doesn't give a crap and is very much a "Cyclops was right" kind of guy (also, why Emma isn't with this X-men team is simply because JDW hates her as a X-man)

Likewise, I doubt when Marvel handed him the command of the books and the line, they gave him an order of "Scott must/must not date Jean". He was brought in to overhaul the books entirely and redefine even how we see mutantkind and the history of the X-men because he's the only writer with enough popularity and credibility to do so currently, so I hardly think this will be a defining factor. He'll probably do what he thinks it's best for the story and the characters, and that's probably the best approach.

If anything, I figure they’ll lay the groundwork for them being together again either in the end of Uncanny’s current run or sprinkle it in during HOX/ POX, and really explore it during the monthlies.......(ideally either the Flagship, another team book or a Duo Book), for all we know the end of the current run would barrel on through and not take the babysteps approach that X-Factor did......

[phoenixzero23]

I love them but they aren't getting together anytime soon (if ever). It is easier to just accept it.

[maxi_miceli]

Perhaps this matters, perhaps it doesn't, but in the weapon plus stuff they released Jean is mentioned as Jean Grey-Summers, thought it was worth mentioning

And not having expectations and having negative expectations is different, you are having negative ones if you are saying that you expect them not to be together, the best is to actually don't have any, accept you don't know what will happen and allow yourself not to try to guess, all the art shows them side by side, so the only guess we have is that they are going to be on good terms and fighting side by side, expect that and allow the story to surprise you with the rest, we know that whathever is it Hickman does will change the X-men at least for the next 5-10 years, so the first issue is important enough as to buy it, and he is a great writer, even if he did something we dislike with the characters the comics will still be very good (and everyone in Marvel seems to love his idea, it even reminded them that marketing exists)

[Ulfhammer]

You looking it from your perspective and not Marvel: a will-they/won't they thing might irritate you or some fans that think it would be out of character, but would definitively be something that Marvel would try to for an easy cash grab and to generate hype to the book, even more if they play a triangle with Logan. For the vast majority of fans, it would be the most talked about thing. Plus, would make more sense than to reconnect them off-panel or after one issue in the end of Uncanny/Age of X-man.

No, I'm very much trying to see Marvel's angle here. The problem is that there's no objective way of quantifying how much these kinds of tactics actually effect sales. I'm not denying that it would create conversation. I'm questioning how many books this tactic would sell vs how many books with the same cast would be sold without it. Unfortunately we'll never know for sure. Given how rarely this was done in the past I question if it does impact sales. If Marvel knew for sure that it did, like creating new #1 books for instance, I'm guessing they would have done it a lot more often.

There is no triangle with Logan in the books. Never was. This is a creation of FOX. There was never a single moment in any issue where Jean contemplated leaving Scott for Logan. I seriously doubt this becomes a thing going forward, unless Hickman is willing to double down on changing Jean's characterization.

You might dislike them apart, but makes zero sense from a writers perspective to just reconnect them off panel or after one or two issues, not only for sales, but the sheer amount of trauma and non-sense that Scott has been through all these years, and all the problems they faced through in general that can be explored and generate stories.

Also, editorials approach to romance and Scott's view may matter to Rosenberg, since he's not famous and popular enough to not have a run with a lot of editorial interference or direction, but Hickman is another matter: Marvel needs him to take over the X-men more than the other way around right now. His view on Scott for example, is a 180º of Marvel's view ever since AvX; this, in fact, it's part of the reason we have Scott right now in Uncanny with a "redemption" arc for bad stuff he supposedly did, but no one says what exactly, because Hickman doesn't give a crap and is very much a "Cyclops was right" kind of guy (also, why Emma isn't with this X-men team is simply because JDW hates her as a X-man)

Likewise, I doubt when Marvel handed him the command of the books and the line, they gave him an order of "Scott must/must not date Jean". He was brought in to overhaul the books entirely and redefine even how we see mutantkind and the history of the X-men because he's the only writer with enough popularity and credibility to do so currently, so I hardly think this will be a defining factor. He'll probably do what he thinks it's best for the story and the characters, and that's probably the best approach.

Of course I dislike them apart. I've had plenty of time to get used to the idea though.

I think there's a bit of a disconnect in how we're viewing them getting back together. I'm of the mind that these things are best worked out organically over time, once they're already a couple. This was Simonson's approach in X-Factor (once the Maddie angle was resolved) and I think it worked because there really is very little realistic motivation for them staying apart. You can argue until you're blue in the face, but nothing that happened since these two were together last is worse than Jean waking up to find Scott married with an infant son. Sure, they're plenty of drama laced stories that could be told, because the couple does have a fair bit to work out. Again, that doesn't prevent them from being together while they're doing it.

I think you might be making a bigger deal out of whatever issues they may have than really makes sense. See Phoenix Resurrection for the most recent example of how Scott and Jean say hello. Doesn't see like a whole lot has changed since the 90's.

I hope your right about Hickman's take on Scott. It's long past time Marvel stopped with the "Scott is a monster" narrative.

[maxi_miceli]

You might dislike them apart, but makes zero sense from a writers perspective to just reconnect them off panel or after one or two issues

There is actually a reason why it is possible that they are reunited quickly at the issue they come back, off panel or in the first issue if they do a quick sumary of the current situation, is if Hickman wants to have them together but doesn't want to take pages away from the story, this 10 issues will be working as a set up for the ongoings that come out of it, he doesn't like dealing with personal stuff in his comics and he is more than likely going to have them both in his ongoing. Plus it isn't like making two characters a new couple, getting them together is essentially just a return to the status quo, the last time they saw each other they already said that they love each other, Scott mentioned that he wanted to go to Jean in the annual, Jean mentioned missing Scott a lot since her return, that works for establishing the framework for their return if he doesn't want to take long to do it

[FUBAR007]

I love them but they aren't getting together anytime soon (if ever). It is easier to just accept it.

Since the release of the House of X cover images, my gut instinct is that they'll be in "friendly ex-es" mode similar to how Hank Pym and the Wasp have been historically portrayed. They work together as trusted colleagues, they're close friends, and they may or may not hook up on occasion, but they don't get back together permanently, and they don't remarry.

But, this is pure speculation on my part. I don't know what will happen. We'll just have to see what Hickman does.

[FUBAR007]

I think you might be making a bigger deal out of whatever issues they may have than really makes sense. See Phoenix Resurrection for the most recent example of how Scott and Jean say hello. Doesn't see like a whole lot has changed since the 90's.

It's hard for me to see how they'll get from "I will always love you" in PR #5 to "I'm glad you're alive, but I want to **** Bishop/Emma/>someone else< for a while yet" or "I do love you, but we can't be together because >reasons<". But, that doesn't mean Marvel won't have them do exactly that.

[Ulfhammer]

Since the release of the House of X cover images, my gut instinct is that they'll be in "friendly ex-es" mode similar to how Hank Pym and the Wasp have been historically portrayed. They work together as trusted colleagues, they're close friends, and they may or may not hook up on occasion, but they don't get back together permanently, and they don't remarry.

But, this is pure speculation on my part. I don't know what will happen. We'll just have to see what Hickman does.

It's hard for me to see how they'll get from "I will always love you" in PR #5 to "I'm glad you're alive, but I want to **** Bishop/Emma/>someone else< for a while yet" or "I do love you, but we can't be together because >reasons<". But, that doesn't mean Marvel won't have them do exactly that.

What happened in PR #5 is consistent with Scott and Jean's overarching history. What you're describing (friends w\ benefits), really isn't. That's the most compelling argument I can make, or rather five decades of Marvel creators can make for how they would likely behave.

It seems everyone believes Hickman has been given a lot of latitude. If that's true than current editorials views on this should be irrelevant. Maybe he doesn't really care all that much and resolves this one way or another in no time. He's got a lot to cover. Why take two characters down a characterization rabbit hole if you don't have to? Just play them straight. Easier, and better for everyone.

[Omega Alpha]

It's hard for me to see how they'll get from "I will always love you" in PR #5 to "I'm glad you're alive, but I want to **** Bishop/Emma/>someone else< for a while yet" or "I do love you, but we can't be together because >reasons<". But, that doesn't mean Marvel won't have them do exactly that.

I hardly think one character's state of mind when he's being resurrected by a cosmic force for a few minutes for the sole purpose of tempting his previously dead wife of becoming the host of said cosmic force, and has one chance of saying goodbye before he dies again, can be taken as undeniable proof he wants to be a couple with her again. Would hardly be the time to say "I love you...as a a friend".

Plus, from a non-universe perspective, Rosenberg might think Scott & Jean should be a couple, but the next writer doesn't.

I hope your right about Hickman's take on Scott. It's long past time Marvel stopped with the "Scott is a monster" narrative.

Judging by how he wrote Scott before, and looking how much Hickman likes Emma and Magneto, characters that walk even more in the gray area, I doubt we'll see anything like Rosenberg's Cyclops, and that's a great thing.

[Ulfhammer]

I hardly think one character's state of mind when he's being resurrected by a cosmic force for a few minutes for the sole purpose of tempting his previously dead wife of becoming the host of said cosmic force, and has one chance of saying goodbye before he dies again, can be taken as undeniable proof he wants to be a couple with her again. Would hardly be the time to say "I love you...as a a friend".

Actually in those circumstances I would expect the most honest reaction. Neither party had any reason to pretend or deceive because there's no expectation of follow up. Besides, there's no evidence that Scott has wanted to be with anyone else since he broke up with Emma and clearly had no intentions of ever getting back together with her. There's plenty of evidence, much of it from Emma herself, that Scott remained in love with Jean during her "absence".

Plus, from a non-universe perspective, Rosenberg might think Scott & Jean should be a couple, but the next writer doesn't.

Nope.

Judging by how he wrote Scott before, and looking how much Hickman likes Emma and Magneto, characters that walk even more in the gray area, I doubt we'll see anything like Rosenberg's Cyclops, and that's a great thing.

Scott isn't really a grey character though and I don't think he's at his best in those situations. Protecting kids from homicidal cops and telling off Cap, sure. X-Force, not so much. I hope Hickman avoids a Morrison do over when it comes to Scott.

[FUBAR007]

I hope your right about Hickman's take on Scott. It's long past time Marvel stopped with the "Scott is a monster" narrative.

The only remaining issue is his killing of Xavier. And, based on the previews for House of X, now that they're both back, Xavier doesn't appear to be holding it against him.

We've all been so focused on how Scott's reunion with Jean will play out that we haven't much discussed how Scott and Charles's reunion will go. We'll find out next month.

[MechaJeanix]

I really don't think most of us have anything to worry about. I don't think Scott and Jean will get together soon, but I don't see them hooking up with others. I think they will remain single and they will be friends and teammates.

The Jean/Bishop thing is equivalent to Scott and Frenzy. I think we have more to worry about in Uncanny. I doubt it will happen, but who knows.. Scott and Emma may have a moment or a connection especially since Jean is believed to be dead. Though Scott does have his Tyke memories so it remains to be seen how he views Emma currently.

I've been re-reading some 70's to 90's X-men and it is hard to deny the significance of the Scott and Jean relationship (but there has been many bumps and roadblocks along the way). I bet I'm right and they will remain friends for a while...

Maybe they can be involved in stories that have nothing to do with relationship drama or romance.