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  1. #211
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redshipper View Post
    I don't know. I loved Jean and Scott. Then Morrison happened and I was left heartbroken, pretty much the same way Jean was. It took me a few weeks to bounce back and once I had picked up my pieces, endsong came out where Scott kept saying how he loves Emma and she is much better for him than Jean was and that is why he loves her. Jean was sent back to grave and Scott stated he has moved on with Emma. I stopped reading.

    That was the end for me and I switched sides to a certain canadian whose love for Jean runs just as deep. In the comics, surely Jean can forgive and get back but if logic dictates that would be a hard thing to come back from in a relationship.

    Plus, now that adult Jean has teen Jean's memories, she knows that Emma showed her the part where Scott tells her that he picked Emma. So even if they reconciled in PR, Jean now has knowledge she didn't before. That Scott chose Emma and would have even if she had lived
    Yes, i hated some of the things that were done to the relationship. Sadly that's Marvel, they did the same with Maddie/Scott and were planning to do something ugly to Scott/Emma. Something many people don't get is that at the end of the day these characters don't own their emotions, they are slaves to the writers and editors.

    You can have Jean or Scott saying that they will always love each other for decades but if a writter suddenly says that they love emma/bishop that's canon, even if it doesn't make sense or anything hinted it before. But some people think this a problem only for Jean and Scott, which is not. They are clearly the biggest victims but marvel does it all the time with other romances. For example i love Wanda and Vision but Marvel has no problem in making them date other people or even claim it is love (like wonderman, good thing it ended), Marvel did the same to Black Bolt and Medusa, they were stable for decades and suddenly they were the worst thing ever and Medusa hooked up with many people infront of Black Bolt. Marvel doesn't really care about this stuff or the characters or relationships integrity, only cheap drama and easy buzz. they don't even build their romances anymore, people just are totally in love from one moment to the other.

    Understanding Marvel horrible philosophy on romance made me tolerate some of that. because is not the characters or relationships faults. I like to judge the relationships for what they are when they are together and not for when they are not or break up (eventually they will all break up).

    Also in the end the character most related to Jean is Scott and to Scott is Jean. Even after everything that has been done to cut that tie. Since the start of the books, to this day even if it is ignored. And they have lived things that other relationships can't even dream about, you can make them kiss and love anybody, that's easy that happens to any ship and is not unique. Only with Jean and Scott you can write about family, fate, tragedy, time travel, death and growing up
    Last edited by phoenixzero23; 01-18-2019 at 11:43 AM.

  2. #212
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    He was also among those who insisted Scott was dead until the previews of post-"Disassembled" Uncanny starting coming out.

    Look, too, at what he could've said, but didn't. He could've said that Scott and Jean were over long ago, and fans just need to get over it and let go. He could've said Scott and Jean are radically different people now and that, as a result, their relationship wouldn't work. He could've teased "fresh, interesting" new relationships for both of them. But, he didn't say any of that.

    At minimum, Jott is a string Marvel wants to continue to pluck if for no other reason than to tease us. Worst case, we're in for a thematic sequel to Morrison's run in which Rosenberg and co. make a go of exploring why they think Jott can't work anymore and deconstructing it once and for all, but, as of right now, I'm dubious that's where things are going.

    Until "Age of X" is over and the previews of what comes after are released, we'll just have to wait.
    I think it will end like Morrison's run but on Scott's side. Bishop/Jean is going to be serious ( i just hate they made jott/scott look bad to prop up literally anything) Scott will see Jean with someone else and decide he is not getting in the way because her happiness is more important. They end the relationship and Scott hooks up with someone else. Throwing decades of build up (again)
    Last edited by phoenixzero23; 01-18-2019 at 10:52 AM.

  3. #213
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    I think it will end like Morrison's run but on Scott's side. Bishop/Jean is going to be serious ( i just hate they made jott/scott look bad to prop up literally anything) Scott will see Jean with someone else and decide he is not getting in the way because her happiness is more important. They end the relationship and Scott hooks up with someone else. Throwing decades of build up (again)
    While that will suck, it's a better resolution than what Morrison's term gave us. Plus, I could see Scott backing off as a manifestation of his guilt over Emma.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  4. #214
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    I honestly believe that if Morrison didn't treat the couple that bad they would have gotten back together ages ago

  5. #215
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    Honestly, just because Scott says Emma was the one in Endsong doesn't mean he ever meant it.

    Jean's future self was the one who prompted Scott to choose Emma over her in the first place at the end of Morrison's run, so anything Scott says in favor of Emma can be excused as all manipulation coming from Jean herself. It's Jean who somehow thought Emma would be a better fit, because if Scott remained fixated on Jean, he'd give up on the dream, which is what happened in her future.

    I look at Here Comes Tomorrow as very much the OMD of Scott/Jean stories, in that a god-like being (Jean in the white hot room and Mephisto) interferes with the natural order of things to ensure a different reality comes about, and the characters (in this case Scott as well as Peter Parker and Mary Jane), go about their business with a deliberately manipulated and skewered view of things, not really understanding their choices. The difference between HCT and OMD is that MJ and Peter found their way back to each other after a decade or so...but then, OMD ended with MJ making that very promise to Peter, that their love would overcome Mephisto's magic. This isn't magic we're dealing with of course, it's all the power of the logical mind over the truth in your heart. Morrison's run just ends with Jean telling Scott to live because all she did was die on him...and it appears that is very much still the case. Jean just keeps dying on him, or he dies on her.

    Mutants should stop being goddamn Vulcans when it comes to romance.

    Jean/Bishop won't last, it probably won't even be a few years. Marvel catch on quick when something isn't working.
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 01-18-2019 at 11:49 AM.

  6. #216
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    I honestly believe that if Morrison didn't treat the couple that bad they would have gotten back together ages ago
    More like had he not killed her. That was the biggest obstacle to any reunion more so than how he treated them. Later writers could have simply ignored that but her being dead and the policy to keep her that way was the main culprit in why they couldnt get past anything

  7. #217
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    More like had he not killed her. That was the biggest obstacle to any reunion more so than how he treated them. Later writers could have simply ignored that but her being dead and the policy to keep her that way was the main culprit in why they couldnt get past anything
    It's also the biggest reason it is talked about to this day. Comic book stories always have a full resolution to major conflicts, so not having any real closure to THE AFFAIR set a tone that continues today.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  8. #218
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    I do not see OMD as analogous to what was done with Jott. Jott's problems started long before HCT. Peter and MJ's problems were all a result of OMD. Their marriage did not fall apart, it was undone. With them Quesada said no adultery because it would destroy the characters. At least he got that much right.

    Yep, who knows what might have happened if Jean came back sooner. Thing is, like it or not, a lot of people, I mean as in creators, liked Grant Morrison's X Men. They liked many of his concepts and wanted to run with them. Some of them liked Scemna and wanted to explore it, play with it.

  9. #219
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    It's also the biggest reason it is talked about to this day. Comic book stories always have a full resolution to major conflicts, so not having any real closure to THE AFFAIR set a tone that continues today.
    I hate that. They could have broke up in a better way but marvel let that problem root for years to the point that is the only way many people view the relationship.
    I think something as beautiful certainly deserved better and it sukcs because Jean didn't deserve that and Scott wouldn't do that but here we are.

    it sucks because Scott is famous for loving Jean deepely but some people now only believe he is an asshole even if there are decades and tons of stories that show that he loves Jean so freaking much. Like there is no other person who talks about how cool is Jean more than Scott but somehow some people don't see that.
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  10. #220
    Mighty Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Part of being a fan of anything, especially of Cyclops, just means that sometimes you have to acknowledge that there will be hate unfortunately.

    I like all the posts so far. To be honest my favorites already seem to be posted, but I felt this one was needed. While not necessarily as big of a conflict as they face now, it really demonstrated the lengths these two would go for one another. It may seem like they are at their worst now, but if they could get through the whole Maddie debacle, I have hope for the future.

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    "I've done abominable things. I don't ask for forgiveness. I don't deserve it. I'm happy to spend what remains of my life paying for my crimes. But I'd do it all again."
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    "Life sucks sometimes...but it's always worth living."
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  11. #221
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lancer View Post
    Very little Jott as in interacting in current time. Hiwevert, the relationship is the emotional center of the book. Look at Jean's danger room reenactment that she plays over and over. Joseph Harris, the series' writer, called Jott Marvel's greatest couple. You could read those books and believe it. Jott is a huge part of that series.

    I thought Jean was kickass at the end. Depends, I suppose, on how you define kickass and badass. Badass was not what I was looking for from either Scott or Jean. That's more Logan.
    Tomayto, tomahto Lancer. We mean the same things.

  12. #222
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    I understand the sentiment that Scott is no longer worthy of her. I understand the desire to see Scott pay some kind of karmic price for cheating on her. The thing is, canonically and on-panel, Jean has already forgiven him and moved past all that. Thus, anything keeping them apart going forward has to be a plot contrivance, not a logical extrapolation of their characterization. Hence, Jean/Bishop.

    We're not going to know anything for sure until after "Age of X-Man" at the earliest. So, for the time being, anything we try to infer or intuit is pure speculation. Ultimately, we'll just have to wait and see.
    I don't. Scott made mistakes. Jean made mistakes. You can argue the relative impact of those mistakes but that's truly irrelevant to the idea that Scott isn't worthy. There's really only two options here. Either Jean is just as human and flawed as Scott or she's not human and not flawed, and therefore perfect. If she's perfect than no one is worthy or her.

    As fans of the couple we need to accept that the choices they've made may not always seem right, but there's context to every "sin". True love, if such a thing exists, must accept the failings of the other person or or it was never "true" to begin with.

    The other argument is that all failings are relative and Scott can easily be judged as unworthy because his failings effected Jean the most, and his greatest failings were with her. You can make that argument. The problem is that objectively the argument is irrelevant to "worthiness". Scott's character, when taking as a whole across his entire history is that of an unmitigated hero, selflessly serving his friends, family, comrades and world at large with a will and resolve arguably unrivaled within the context of the X-Men.

    Yes, he's fallen short, time and again. That was true before Morrison and it will be true in the future. Despite his failings, he persists to try to be the best man he can and do the best he can for those he cares about. He does so free of pride and without ever considering personal gain, and each failure is a weight he forever carries. It's that aspect of Scott that I believe Jean fell in love with and that's what makes him worthy for her.
    Last edited by Ulfhammer; 01-18-2019 at 10:16 PM.

  13. #223
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    He was also among those who insisted Scott was dead until the previews of post-"Disassembled" Uncanny starting coming out.

    Look, too, at what he could've said, but didn't. He could've said that Scott and Jean were over long ago, and fans just need to get over it and let go. He could've said Scott and Jean are radically different people now and that, as a result, their relationship wouldn't work. He could've teased "fresh, interesting" new relationships for both of them. But, he didn't say any of that.

    At minimum, Jott is a string Marvel wants to continue to pluck if for no other reason than to tease us. Worst case, we're in for a thematic sequel to Morrison's run in which Rosenberg and co. make a go of exploring why they think Jott can't work anymore and deconstructing it once and for all, but, as of right now, I'm dubious that's where things are going.

    Until "Age of X" is over and the previews of what comes after are released, we'll just have to wait.
    Very good point. You frequently manage to find ways to look at an angle that I've overlooked.

    I'm not sure permanently ending the relationship is even possible. I don't know what it would take. The one thing I know for sure is that regardless if Jean comes back from AoXM arm in arm with someone else or not, she will be happy to Scott and he'll be happy to see her. These two will never stop mattering to each other. They're beyond lovers now. They're family. And yes, the Summers-Grey clan has taken it on the chin since pretty much forever, but that means the family that's left just matters that much more.

  14. #224
    Mighty Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfhammer View Post
    I don't. Scott made mistakes. Jean made mistakes. You can argue the relative impact of those mistakes but that's truly irrelevant to the idea that Scott isn't worthy. There's really only two options here. Either Jean is just as human and flawed as Scott or she's not human and not flawed, and therefore perfect. If she's perfect than no one is worthy or her.

    As fans of the couple we need to accept that the choices they've made may not always seem right, but there's context to every "sin". True love, if such a thing exists, must accept the failings of the other person or or it was never "true" to begin with.

    The other argument is that all failings are relative and Scott can easily be judged as unworthy because his failings effected Jean the most, and his greatest failings were with her. You can make that argument. The problem is that objectively the argument is irrelevant to "worthiness". Scott's character, when taking as a whole across his entire history is that of an unmitigated hero, selflessly serving his friends, family, comrades and world at large with a will and resolve arguably unrivaled within the context of the X-Men.

    Yes, he's fallen short, time and again. That was true before Morrison and it will be true in the future. Despite his failings, he persists to try to be the best man he can and do the best he can for those he cares about. He does so free of pride and without ever considering personal gain, and each failure is a weight he forever carries. It's that aspect of Scott that I believe Jean fell in love with and that's what makes him worthy for her.
    Once again I am impressed with the way you express your sentiments with words. I agree wholeheartedly. Scott and Jean are both flawed characters but their differences make them better together.
    "I've done abominable things. I don't ask for forgiveness. I don't deserve it. I'm happy to spend what remains of my life paying for my crimes. But I'd do it all again."
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    "Life sucks sometimes...but it's always worth living."
    -Spider-man
    "Do not mistake a desire to avoid violence with an ability to deal with it."
    -Wonder Woman

  15. #225
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    I think it will end like Morrison's run but on Scott's side. Bishop/Jean is going to be serious ( i just hate they made jott/scott look bad to prop up literally anything) Scott will see Jean with someone else and decide he is not getting in the way because her happiness is more important. They end the relationship and Scott hooks up with someone else. Throwing decades of build up (again)
    I hope he's honest with her. He's never gotten anywhere lying or deceiving her or hiding his feelings from her. Jean is always far more accepting of Scott's nature than he expects she'll be. It was this exact problem that allowed Emma to worm her way in. Scott needs to grow up a little, for the good of everyone. If she decides that she wants to move on, Scott needs to accept that, but I doubt he'll be able to do so himself. I not sure he's 100% over Maddie, and I doubt he has the ability to ever get over Jean. He can be happy she's happy though, if that's in fact the case.

    A little time apart may actually be good for them. It might even be fun if it's handled well. They're very close friends first and I hope that survives. As long as it does , there's hope.

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