Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[Ulfhammer]

Honestly, just because Scott says Emma was the one in Endsong doesn't mean he ever meant it.

Jean's future self was the one who prompted Scott to choose Emma over her in the first place at the end of Morrison's run, so anything Scott says in favor of Emma can be excused as all manipulation coming from Jean herself. It's Jean who somehow thought Emma would be a better fit, because if Scott remained fixated on Jean, he'd give up on the dream, which is what happened in her future.

I look at Here Comes Tomorrow as very much the OMD of Scott/Jean stories, in that a god-like being (Jean in the white hot room and Mephisto) interferes with the natural order of things to ensure a different reality comes about, and the characters (in this case Scott as well as Peter Parker and Mary Jane), go about their business with a deliberately manipulated and skewered view of things, not really understanding their choices. The difference between HCT and OMD is that MJ and Peter found their way back to each other after a decade or so...but then, OMD ended with MJ making that very promise to Peter, that their love would overcome Mephisto's magic. This isn't magic we're dealing with of course, it's all the power of the logical mind over the truth in your heart. Morrison's run just ends with Jean telling Scott to live because all she did was die on him...and it appears that is very much still the case. Jean just keeps dying on him, or he dies on her.

Mutants should stop being goddamn Vulcans when it comes to romance.

Jean/Bishop won't last, it probably won't even be a few years. Marvel catch on quick when something isn't working.

HCT is a source of confusion because it's unclear exactly to what extent the Phoenix affected Scott. Personally I believe that Jean chose to push Scott rather forcefully in Emma's direction. I believe it for two reasons. Scott was dead set on leaving the X-Men to go sulk in the hills. He's stubborn and no gentle nudge would have altered his course. I also believe that Jean specifically pushed Scott in Emma's direction because she know that Emma genuinely loved him, and would fanatically look out for Scott in Jean's absence. It felt to me like Jean doing what she could to protect Scott, who struggles to protect himself, while fixing the timeline. A neat two for one kind of deal.

As for Jean and Bishop or whoever it ends up being, I doubt very much it's designed to last. As Fubar mentioned, Scott and Jean's relationship is valuable to Marvel and they're unlikely to break it permanently. Remember that these creators are storytellers. They're not Cupid. They're not intending to set Jean off on some harlequin romance. They're telling a story and they know within the broad strokes where it's going.

If Matt Rosenberg can go on Twitter and say "they'll probably end up together someday" it's likely because he understands the prevailing attitudes within Marvel's creative and editorial staff as well as the desires of the fan base and is basing his speculation on that. And this is a guy who likes Jean better on her own. No, if Jean ends up with someone else, it'll be done both because they think it will make a good, controversial story now, and make for an even better one down the road.

If was easy or simple, it wouldn't be a Jean and Scott story.

[Abbz_A]

I don't. Scott made mistakes. Jean made mistakes. You can argue the relative impact of those mistakes but that's truly irrelevant to the idea that Scott isn't worthy. There's really only two options here. Either Jean is just as human and flawed as Scott or she's not human and not flawed, and therefore perfect. If she's perfect than no one is worthy or her.

As fans of the couple we need to accept that the choices they've made may not always seem right, but there's context to every "sin". True love, if such a thing exists, must accept the failings of the other person or or it was never "true" to begin with.

The other argument is that all failings are relative and Scott can easily be judged as unworthy because his failings effected Jean the most, and his greatest failings were with her. You can make that argument. The problem is that objectively the argument is irrelevant to "worthiness". Scott's character, when taking as a whole across his entire history is that of an unmitigated hero, selflessly serving his friends, family, comrades and world at large with a will and resolve arguably unrivaled within the context of the X-Men.

Yes, he's fallen short, time and again. That was true before Morrison and it will be true in the future. Despite his failings, he persists to try to be the best man he can and do the best he can for those he cares about. He does so free of pride and without ever considering personal gain, and each failure is a weight he forever carries. It's that aspect of Scott that I believe Jean fell in love with and that's what makes him worthy for her.

I totally agree with everything you said here.


I would also have to ask, why are many folks around here overlooking Cyclops mental state during the affair..... the fact he could never get over Jean is really telling, most of his actions during Morrison run and his **** ups were due to some mental problem. He was not in his right mind ... it’s obvious that if Scott was mentally n emotionally there ... he wouldn’t have gone through the affair thing.


Btw ... this thread n Scott Thread ... I can’t catch up!! pages jump real fast

[Ulfhammer]

It's also the biggest reason it is talked about to this day. Comic book stories always have a full resolution to major conflicts, so not having any real closure to THE AFFAIR set a tone that continues today.

I'm glad it was never resolved by Morrison back in NXM. If it had been at the time, I suspect they're relationship may have been doomed for good. Delaying the resolution for decades allowed time and perspective (and marvel personnel) to change, giving the relationship a chance it would never have had under Morrison's pen.

[Abbz_A]

Thanks for the kind words. I think you may be overstating my abilities in this regard, but when passion moves the spirit, those who share that passion hear the meaning clearly.

I've been to the hell that every fan eventually ends up in when they get angsty enough... fanfic writing. I came to realize that I was writing about 10-20K words per week here and thought I'd channel that energy somewhere else for a while. I'll always wonder back here though. As much as this board has it's problems, this is the definitive stop for X-Men fan knowledge, passion and perspective

Hahah well, I gotta say my hope for this ship is real low but your words really encourages me to re-Hope again.
I was never into fanfics ... idk why. But I think imma give them a shot now .. cuz I really miss Jott.

Agreed. I'd encourage all of us to remain hopeful. There's too much sizzle in the Jean and Scott steak for Marvel to let this ship drift out to sea.

Here's the tweet chain for anyone interested.

I do want to hope again, I just want the writers to respect Jotts history. This whole Jean/Bishop is like a big “Fuck You” to Jotts fans ...

[Abbz_A]

I'm glad it was never resolved by Morrison back in NXM. If it had been at the time, I suspect they're relationship may have been doomed for good. Delaying the resolution for decades allowed time and perspective (and marvel personnel) to change, giving the relationship a chance it would never have had under Morrison's pen.

That is true.

I just wonder, if Jean was gonna die anyway... why couldn’t they just put Scemma after her death? Why was the affair necessary?

[Ulfhammer]

I totally agree with everything you said here.


I would also have to ask, why are many folks around here overlooking Cyclops mental state during the affair..... the fact he could never get over Jean is really telling, most of his actions during Morrison run and his **** ups were due to some mental problem. He was not in his right mind ... it’s obvious that if Scott was mentally n emotionally there ... he wouldn’t have gone through the affair thing.


Btw ... this thread n Scott Thread ... I can’t catch up!! pages jump real fast

I think for many, Scott's mental state at the time is considered a crutch. The argument goes that many X-Men have been severely traumatized but never did the bad stuff Scott did.

People are free to believe whatever they want. What matters is what Jean thought. Jean understood Scott's state and that's why she ripped into Emma on panel so fiercely.

I don't personally believe that it absolves Scott of the consequences of his actions, but it certainly provides context for what happened. You'll note that Scott never really defended himself about this to anyone but Jean and even then it was half-hearted at best. He knew what he did was wrong. He was ashamed and ran off like a coward instead of facing her. I think he's been beating himself up about it ever since. Jean's instant forgiveness of Scott in phoenix resurrection would have probably made him feel even worse because I'm convinced he feels that he has to do penance over the whole thing. Typical Scott bullshit.

Scott's thinks he guilty of being the worst person ever, all the time. I think that comes down to how things ended with Maddie and Jean and eventually Charles. Because Scott hates what he's done, it easy for X-Men fans to hate him for it as well.

[Ulfhammer]

Part of being a fan of anything, especially of Cyclops, just means that sometimes you have to acknowledge that there will be hate unfortunately.

I like all the posts so far. To be honest my favorites already seem to be posted, but I felt this one was needed. While not necessarily as big of a conflict as they face now, it really demonstrated the lengths these two would go for one another. It may seem like they are at their worst now, but if they could get through the whole Maddie debacle, I have hope for the future.

Attachment 77140

This is a favorite of mine as well. It was a stupid fight, but that's what couples generally have. A very real life kind of moment.

[Lokimaru]

Jean and Bishop is just as WTF inducing as Scott and Emma given the characters pasts. It amazes my how much Rrrhate we got for Scott yet Bishop is welcomed back like nothing happened even after Hunting Hope and Cable through time like Elmer hunting Wabbits.

[Ulfhammer]

Once again I am impressed with the way you express your sentiments with words. I agree wholeheartedly. Scott and Jean are both flawed characters but their differences make them better together.

I like Better Together as a ship name for them so much more than Jott. Unfortunately it's not exactly short hand.

[Abbz_A]

I think for many, Scott's mental state at the time is considered a crutch. The argument goes that many X-Men have been severely traumatized but never did the bad stuff Scott did.

People are free to believe whatever they want. What matters is what Jean thought. Jean understood Scott's state and that's why she ripped into Emma on panel so fiercely.

I don't personally believe that it absolves Scott of the consequences of his actions, but it certainly provides context for what happened. You'll note that Scott never really defended himself about this to anyone but Jean and even then it was half-hearted at best. He knew what he did was wrong. He was ashamed and ran off like a coward instead of facing her. I think he's been beating himself up about it ever since. Jean's instant forgiveness of Scott in phoenix resurrection would have probably made him feel even worse because I'm convinced he feels that he has to do penance over the whole thing. Typical Scott bullshit.

Scott's thinks he guilty of being the worst person ever, all the time. I think that comes down to how things ended with Maddie and Jean and eventually Charles. Because Scott hates what he's done, it easy for X-Men fans to hate him for it as well.

But isnt that what a regular depressed/ PTSD vicitim feels like? They always blame themselves, self-loathing, and are too afraid to face anyone. It’s exactly what Scott has been doing.
Scott is constantly blaming himself, when in reality it’s more than just him who fucked up ... it’s pretty clear Cylclops is in need of some mental help.

And I understand, many X-Men have suffered some sort of trauma .... but the symptoms are showing on Scott. Like Crystal Clear.

[Abbz_A]

Jean and Bishop is just as WTF inducing as Scott and Emma given the characters pasts. It amazes my how much Rrrhate we got for Scott yet Bishop is welcomed back like nothing happened even after Hunting Hope and Cable through time like Elmer hunting Wabbits.

I know!! Honestly, Jean doesn’t have her 616 memories.... apparently. So, it’s excusable in the AU ... what happens afterwards.. is how we gonna judge. lol

I like Better Together as a ship name for them so much more than Jott. Unfortunately it's not exactly short hand.

Aww, that’s cute. Better Together it is

[Ulfhammer]

Hahah well, I gotta say my hope for this ship is real low but your words really encourages me to re-Hope again.
I was never into fanfics ... idk why. But I think imma give them a shot now .. cuz I really miss Jott.



I do want to hope again, I just want the writers to respect Jotts history. This whole Jean/Bishop is like a big “**** You” to Jotts fans ...

Fanfic's are an acquired taste for sure with a lot of variation in quality. If your interested, I suggest one of my personal favorite fic writers. The link below in particular is an excellent excerpt from a much larger one that's an exceptionally well done take on early Jean and Scott. I encourage you to check it out.

https://archiveofourown.org/works/3256592

[Ulfhammer]

That is true.

I just wonder, if Jean was gonna die anyway... why couldn’t they just put Scemma after her death? Why was the affair necessary?

Morrison felt that Scott needed a more realistic relationship than the "high school crush that never grew up" he supposedly had with Jean. Morrison was going through his own personal self-imposed hell at the time. I think it was mostly catharsis for him, wrapped up in some kind of lofty statement about how juvenile comic book relationships were. You're right though. HCT made the affair irrelevant. Supposedly Morrison's plan was to bring Jean back before wrapping his run.

[Abbz_A]

Fanfic's are an acquired taste for sure with a lot of variation in quality. If your interested, I suggest one of my personal favorite fic writers. The link below in particular is an excellent excerpt from a much larger one that's an exceptionally well done take on early Jean and Scott. I encourage you to check it out.

https://archiveofourown.org/works/3256592

Ooo~ sure! I’ll definitely check it out. Thank you! :3

[Ulfhammer]

Jean and Bishop is just as WTF inducing as Scott and Emma given the characters pasts. It amazes my how much Rrrhate we got for Scott yet Bishop is welcomed back like nothing happened even after Hunting Hope and Cable through time like Elmer hunting Wabbits.

But he said in Exterminated that he did lot's of things he wasn't proud of and offered his condolences to Rachel over Cable's death of all things. Slate clean.