Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[Ulfhammer]

I mean, yeah, and I wouldn't mind continuing the conversation if others were okay with it.

I do try to respect the integrity of appreciation threads for what they are meant to be, opportunities to discuss the character or ship in question, it's history and potential future. That said, I don't shy away from the dark bits. It's very difficult to discuss Scott or Jean while leaving out the context of some of their less than great moments. If it's done respectfully and honestly, I think that's part of appreciating a character or ship.

If you're ever concerned that a question or angle may be disrespectful to an appreciation thread I'd suggest you have two routes to go. Either create a new thread to deal with the specific question at hand; in this case "what is the source of conflict between Jean and Emma?". That approach has the benefit of keeping it a self contained conversation, and drawing people into the discussion that may not normally visit a specific character or ship appreciation thread thereby given you a broader and more complete view of the communities opinions. The other option is to PM specific individuals to get their take. Sometimes, if a particular question is emotionally charged or seems slanted against a character (one of my personal favorites -- "Why is Scott such a disappointment"), just posting it can mean some members will tune you out for good. It's unfortunate but running such a discussion through PM prevents that possibility.

[Ulfhammer]

I mean, yeah, and I wouldn't mind continuing the conversation if others were okay with it. I feel that it's quite relevant to some of the previous topics recently brought up and I was hoping for some clarification. I pushed at a topic and will accept where it led as my own doing.

I think it's relevant as well, but very narrowly to discussing the impacts of Jean and Scott's actions in Here Comes Tomorrow. Let me explain the logic.

Premise 1:Emma played a significant role in Mastermind warping Jean's mind.
Premise 2:The warping of Jean's mind allowed Mastermind to have his way with her and ultimately led to her death which lead to Scott marrying Maddie.
Premise 3:Scott marrying Maddie and subsequently leaving her has significant long term negative impacts on Scott's portrayal, and perception of his character which nearly derailed Jean and Scott's relationship
Premise 4:Premise 1-3 should have left a very negative view of Emma for Scott.
Premise 5:This negative view of Emma should have prevented Scott from developing an real romantic feelings for her.
Premise 6:Jean's mental adjustments to Scott must have therefore been very significant to allow him to fall in love with her.

That's the train of thought anyway. Hopefully you can see how Scott's perceptions of Emma are important to the Morrison era status quo, which is important to understanding how Jean may perceive Scott's actions, in context with the points I've already made in the last few pages of this thread.

[bell]

I don't think editorial and writers pushing a relationship with Jean and Bishop have actualy though about how in the long run it might play out. All it would take is one single writer to acknowledge Cable feelings and his suffering. I don't think it was easy taking care of a small child while a mad man hunted him down. Jean fans might think my thoughs on this matter are all about shipping but is 100% about Cable and his relationship with Jean and how her relationship with Bishop might affect that. Sooner or later pandora's box will be open on this and we will get Marvel distancing Jean from Cable so as not to damage her. This would mean Maddie would be addressed as his mother when talking about his pass. Writers would then beging ignoring many of the stories with Jean and Cable. Why do I get the feeling that maybe CC gave them the idea of hooking up Jean and Bishop lol. She might be safe of that drama for now but not forever and when it come into play it will be bad really bad. I do hope Jean fans get ready for that, because we all know drama sells and is coming. This might even be used to keep Scott and Jean apart even longer even if she ends it with Bishop. As for Bishop I think he is only being used in all of this. When it ends they might keep him in limbo forever or damge his reputation more to break it off with Jean both cases he will be in limbo for a long time. It might not happen now or next year but it will there is no escaping it.

I just hope that if it happens Scott backs up Cable.

[TheDeadSpace]

I think it's relevant as well, but very narrowly to discussing the impacts of Jean and Scott's actions in Here Comes Tomorrow. Let me explain the logic.

Premise 1:Emma played a significant role in Mastermind warping Jean's mind.
Premise 2:The warping of Jean's mind allowed Mastermind to have his way with her and ultimately led to her death which lead to Scott marrying Maddie.
Premise 3:Scott marrying Maddie and subsequently leaving her has significant long term negative impacts on Scott's portrayal, and perception of his character which nearly derailed Jean and Scott's relationship
Premise 4:Premise 1-3 should have left a very negative view of Emma for Scott.
Premise 5:This negative view of Emma should have prevented Scott from developing an real romantic feelings for her.
Premise 6:Jean's mental adjustments to Scott must have therefore been very significant to allow him to fall in love with her.

That's the train of thought anyway. Hopefully you can see how Scott's perceptions of Emma are important to the Morrison era status quo, which is important to understanding how Jean may perceive Scott's actions, in context with the points I've already made in the last few pages of this thread.

I can see the cause and effect type of thinking in relation to Jean becoming Dark Phoenix, however the third premise is one I don't necessarily agree with as that's closely related to Sinister of all things. Therefore I feel his view of Emma would be very skewed towards a resentful attitude strictly related to Jean going dark. That being said, Scott's choices for seeking comfort at the time didn't seem to be that great. I'm not sure Scott would have wanted to talk to Beast or Charles about the situation. Wolverine would be avoided most of all considering Scott's perception of him at the time. I think the lack of detail of the effects of Apocalypse's influence on Scott make it difficult to assess his thinking process at the time. It was hinted that Scott would be changed in SFC, but it wasn't expanded on in detail. It's about as ambiguous as Jean's mental influence.

It's an interesting train of thought with consideration of all previous events. So I at least understand the angle of each individual premise.

[TheDeadSpace]

I don't think editorial and writers pushing a relationship with Jean and Bishop have actualy though about how in the long run it might play out. All it would take is one single writer to acknowledge Cable feelings and his suffering. I don't think it was easy taking care of a small child while a mad man hunted him down. Jean fans might think my thoughs on this matter are all about shipping but is 100% about Cable and his relationship with Jean and how her relationship with Bishop might affect that. Sooner or later pandora's box will be open on this and we will get Marvel distancing Jean from Cable so as not to damage her. This would mean Maddie would be addressed as his mother when talking about his pass. Writers would then beging ignoring many of the stories with Jean and Cable. Why do I get the feeling that maybe CC gave them the idea of hooking up Jean and Bishop lol. She might be safe of that drama for now but not forever and when it come into play it will be bad really bad. I do hope Jean fans get ready for that, because we all know drama sells and is coming. This might even be used to keep Scott and Jean apart even longer even if she ends it with Bishop. As for Bishop I think he is only being used in all of this. When it ends they might keep him in limbo forever or damge his reputation more to break it off with Jean both cases he will be in limbo for a long time. It might not happen now or next year but it will there is no escaping it.

I just hope that if it happens Scott backs up Cable.

I feel that the inclusion of Hope in Scott's team and her previous encounter with Jean was a hint towards what's to come. It's odd that Marvel seems to be tearing away at her familial relationships recently.

[PrezValentine]

I don't think editorial and writers pushing a relationship with Jean and Bishop have actualy though about how in the long run it might play out. All it would take is one single writer to acknowledge Cable feelings and his suffering. I don't think it was easy taking care of a small child while a mad man hunted him down. Jean fans might think my thoughs on this matter are all about shipping but is 100% about Cable and his relationship with Jean and how her relationship with Bishop might affect that. Sooner or later pandora's box will be open on this and we will get Marvel distancing Jean from Cable so as not to damage her. This would mean Maddie would be addressed as his mother when talking about his pass. Writers would then beging ignoring many of the stories with Jean and Cable. Why do I get the feeling that maybe CC gave them the idea of hooking up Jean and Bishop lol. She might be safe of that drama for now but not forever and when it come into play it will be bad really bad. I do hope Jean fans get ready for that, because we all know drama sells and is coming. This might even be used to keep Scott and Jean apart even longer even if she ends it with Bishop. As for Bishop I think he is only being used in all of this. When it ends they might keep him in limbo forever or damge his reputation more to break it off with Jean both cases he will be in limbo for a long time. It might not happen now or next year but it will there is no escaping it.

I just hope that if it happens Scott backs up Cable.

I already saw some Jean fans downplaying her bond with Cable, reducing it to "mothering him a bit" and ignoring the story between them, since it apparently weakens her link with Cyclops, so I wouldn't put much stock in them actually agreeing with you on that one. I might be wrong, naturally, but...

[TheCape]

I already saw some Jean fans downplaying her bond with Cable, reducing it to "mothering him a bit" and ignoring the story between them, since it apparently weakens her link with Cyclops, so I wouldn't put much stock in them actually agreeing with you on that one. I might be wrong, naturally, but...

Wait, what?, Jean raised him for like 12 years, in what earth that sounds like "mothering him a bit", she hold him as a baby for christ sake.

[Ulfhammer]

I can see the cause and effect type of thinking in relation to Jean becoming Dark Phoenix, however the third premise is one I don't necessarily agree with as that's closely related to Sinister of all things. Therefore I feel his view of Emma would be very skewed towards a resentful attitude strictly related to Jean going dark. That being said, Scott's choices for seeking comfort at the time didn't seem to be that great. I'm not sure Scott would have wanted to talk to Beast or Charles about the situation. Wolverine would be avoided most of all considering Scott's perception of him at the time. I think the lack of detail of the effects of Apocalypse's influence on Scott make it difficult to assess his thinking process at the time. It was hinted that Scott would be changed in SFC, but it wasn't expanded on in detail. It's about as ambiguous as Jean's mental influence.

It's an interesting train of thought with consideration of all previous events. So I at least understand the angle of each individual premise.

Sinister would never had been in a position to effect his plan is Jean hadn't gone dark, leading to her suicide. Maddie was lifeless prior to Jean's death in UXM 137. You are correct in pointing out that Emma wasn't directly responsible for this, but her actions helped lead to this outcome definitely.

[Ulfhammer]

I don't think editorial and writers pushing a relationship with Jean and Bishop have actualy though about how in the long run it might play out. All it would take is one single writer to acknowledge Cable feelings and his suffering. I don't think it was easy taking care of a small child while a mad man hunted him down. Jean fans might think my thoughs on this matter are all about shipping but is 100% about Cable and his relationship with Jean and how her relationship with Bishop might affect that. Sooner or later pandora's box will be open on this and we will get Marvel distancing Jean from Cable so as not to damage her. This would mean Maddie would be addressed as his mother when talking about his pass. Writers would then beging ignoring many of the stories with Jean and Cable. Why do I get the feeling that maybe CC gave them the idea of hooking up Jean and Bishop lol. She might be safe of that drama for now but not forever and when it come into play it will be bad really bad. I do hope Jean fans get ready for that, because we all know drama sells and is coming. This might even be used to keep Scott and Jean apart even longer even if she ends it with Bishop. As for Bishop I think he is only being used in all of this. When it ends they might keep him in limbo forever or damge his reputation more to break it off with Jean both cases he will be in limbo for a long time. It might not happen now or next year but it will there is no escaping it.

I just hope that if it happens Scott backs up Cable.

Regardless of what the fans happen to think, the creators involved are certainly deepening Jean and Cable's connection in recent months, not deteriorating it. Likely we're thinking further down the road then the creators are at this point. Jean's relationship with Cable has been verily stable over the years. I doubt very much anyone Jean's in a relationship with would have a major impact on that. If Cable was okay with Scott dating Emma, I'm sure he'll get over this. Also, it's somewhat unclear what Kid Cable's take on Bishop would even be at this point.

[phoenixzero23]

-Well, i mean is not like they are getting married.
I don't think Marvel plans through things that far. When they butchered Jott i don't think anybody genuinely thought on marrying Scott to Emma only to make jean/scott look bad. As with any couple there is a time when everything looks perfect but then creators get bored and start putting drama (because apparently that's fun) and then marvel decides to break them to try something else. That happens to almost all couples on marvel whatever relationship Jean or Scott starts now will follow this path. they all look cool at the start but not so much in a few years

-Sooner or later Marvel likes to throw drama to all relationships, no pair is safe. that counts for any relationship even for jott if it ever comes back.

[lancer]

HCT is open to interpretation. I admitted as much, then went on to explain my interpretation. But the affair didn't end in a relationship between Scott and Emma. HCT did that. Before HCT, no Scott and Emma relationship. After HCT, Scott and Emma relationship. It's entirely binary. HCT clearly shows us a Scott that was exiting all things X-Men, including Emma. Logan explains it all to Jean here:



By the end of the issue Jean had pulled her PF strings and the exact same panels are rerun with Scott choicing to stay with the School and with Emma. Exactly what Jean did is arguable. The end result is not.

The affair on is own did not lead to Scott and Emma's relationship. It lead to a disastrous future. Jean's interference lead to the relationship. This isn't really debatable.

As for Scott having always been self-loathing and insecure, I find you're argument on that point mind-boggling. Scott has been consistently portrayed as lacking in self worth since the Silver Age.

Scott doesn't believe he's worthy of leadership but Charles does and forces the point (UXM 7)



Scott doesn't believe can compete with Warren for Jean's affections, nor does he believe he even has a right to do so. (UXM 14)



Scott's self loathing again surfaces in the first several issues of X-Factor culminating in him ending up a drunk living on the docks of Long Island. Screenshot limits prevent me posting that, but I think you'll recall what I'm referring to.

Post "The Twelve" Scott refuses to be honest with Jean about his thoughts because he fears they will drive her away, leading to him confiding in Emma. People focus on the confiding in Emma part, but it's his failure to believe that Jean will accept him that is the underlying driver. Emma points this out to Scott herself, telling him that with her there's no judgementa and nothing is taboo with her. Emma understands that what's driving Scott and Jean apart is Scott's insecurities and she leans into that heavily to drive the affair.

After Jean's death in Planet X, Scott's so wracked with guilt and grief that he folds up on the X-Men permanently.

In Whedon's Astonishing X-Men #1, Logan confronts Scott over moving on so quickly with Emma. This leads to a fight on the front lawn. Scott loses control here because part of him continues to feel guilty about what he's doing. Not the actions of a self-assured individual.

As time goes on, Scott's pre-existing insecurities are compounded by the choices he's made that he regrets. This becomes a deepening cycle of regret and remorse, culminating in Last Will and Testament, where Scott doesn't feel he deserves to be Charles' heir.

Scott's only confidence comes through his leadership abilities. When the mask comes off, the insecurities always override his sense of self-worth. This is one of Scott's most defining features.



No, you don't have to share that view. I've already made my case for why Scott is, on balance, a hero. Scott's relative "worthiness" when it comes to Jean comes entirely down to how the writers perceive that Jean percieve's Scott's actions. Given her ability to overcome her concerns about Scott's behavior during and after the DPS and his marriage to Maddie, I perceive that Jean understands Scott's motivations and accepts his flaws. That's also been true since the Silver Age. I think she knew exactly what she was getting into with Scott, especially over time, and on balance decided that the positive outweighed the negative. After all this is a woman who as at various points believed herself to be the greatest mass murderer in human history. She understands guilt and how it can effect self-worth. Even though she didn't succumb to that guilt, I suspect she knows that Scott doesn't have to the tools to deal with that, given his in-built insecurities.

Okay, now post the panels from UXM 33-66 where Scott is portrayed as terribly insecure or self doubting. Show the panels from UXM 94-200 where this is the case. The comics from say X FACTOR 40 through his disappearing in 1999. You said he had consistently been portrayed that way. That is just, pardon my French, bullshit.parson

Now, I am not claiming you can't scour and find ANY examples during these periods, but consistently? No way. He is consistently portrayed that way in early I AM and tons of self loathing in early X FACTOR. That is how many years? 1963 thru 99 is 37 years.

Let me be clear on one thing. I do not dispute that Scott has always taken his responsibilities as an X Man very seriously and has a tendency to accept responsibility when things wrong. That is not the same thing as self loathing or terribly insecure. Peter Parker and Steve Rogers have, or had, that same tendency. I don't consider them terribly insecure or self loathing either.

You may have me beat the last 15 years, but I'll wager money you do not know the character of Cyclops, up to 2004, better than I do. I am well acquainted with every page you posted.

The affair lead to Scott's feelings for Emma. Those feelings are, IMO, what led him to start a relationship with Emma. After Jean removed the feelings of guilt and despair that kept him from pursuing that relationship. That, again IMO,the affair is entirely relevant. You are caught up in the fact that he didn't immediately take up with her in the original HTC timeline as some sort of proof that the affair is unrelated to the new timeline. Again, the affair is where these feelings blossomed.

Jean will obviously do whatever the writers want her to do. Since she a historically a very compassionate xharacter, it wouldn't surprise me if she forgave. Doesn't mean i, as a reader, have to. Where have I said Scott is no longer a hero? May well be, just more flawed than I want him to be. As in morally at this point.

What is the current canon on Jean and Phoenix? Was it her or not! X FACTOR and 90s Jean sure didn't think she was the person who killed all those D'bari. That was the whole point of the retcon.

[PsychoEFrost]

Okay, now post the panels from UXM 33-66 where Scott is portrayed as terribly insecure or self doubting. Show the panels from UXM 94-200 where this is the case. The comics from say X FACTOR 40 through his disappearing in 1999. You said he had consistently been portrayed that way. That is just, pardon my French, bullshit.parson

Now, I am not claiming you can't scour and find ANY examples during these periods, but consistently? No way. He is consistently portrayed that way in early I AM and tons of self loathing in early X FACTOR. That is how many years? 1963 thru 99 is 37 years.

Let me be clear on one thing. I do not dispute that Scott has always taken his responsibilities as an X Man very seriously and has a tendency to accept responsibility when things wrong. That is not the same thing as self loathing or terribly insecure. Peter Parker and Steve Rogers have, or had, that same tendency. I don't consider them terribly insecure or self loathing either.

You may have me beat the last 15 years, but I'll wager money you do not know the character of Cyclops, up to 2004, better than I do. I am well acquainted with every page you posted.

The affair lead to Scott's feelings for Emma. Those feelings are, IMO, what led him to start a relationship with Emma. After Jean removed the feelings of guilt and despair that kept him from pursuing that relationship. That, again IMO,the affair is entirely relevant. You are caught up in the fact that he didn't immediately take up with her in the original HTC timeline as some sort of proof that the affair is unrelated to the new timeline. Again, the affair is where these feelings blossomed.

Jean will obviously do whatever the writers want her to do. Since she a historically a very compassionate xharacter, it wouldn't surprise me if she forgave. Doesn't mean i, as a reader, have to. Where have I said Scott is no longer a hero? May well be, just more flawed than I want him to be. As in morally at this point.

What is the current canon on Jean and Phoenix? Was it her or not! X FACTOR and 90s Jean sure didn't think she was the person who killed all those D'bari. That was the whole point of the retcon.

The current canon is that she accepts that she was partially responsible for her actions as Dark Phoenix.

I feel like a lot of people here won't be happy until Scott is killed again, then made to be dead at least as long as Jean was. Or a retcon that completely and painfully vaporizes Emma while showing that Emma was controlling Scott the whole time.

[PsychoEFrost]

Here's what I don't get:

Every X-Men member has killed at least a dozen people. Wolverine's kill count is somewhere in the 30,000 people range. Beast and Xavier killed billions during their time with the Illuminati, as did Black Panther and Namor. Cable and Bishop and Hope have absurd kill numbers. Most of the X-Men would rank among the most prolific serial killers by our world's stats.

Yet apparently the worst thing ever is Scott kind of sort of cheating on Jean.

That's just absurd to me.

[Gray Lensman]

Here's what I don't get:

Every X-Men member has killed at least a dozen people. Wolverine's kill count is somewhere in the 30,000 people range. Beast and Xavier killed billions during their time with the Illuminati, as did Black Panther and Namor. Cable and Bishop and Hope have absurd kill numbers. Most of the X-Men would rank among the most prolific serial killers by our world's stats.

Yet apparently the worst thing ever is Scott kind of sort of cheating on Jean.

That's just absurd to me.

How many people are indifferent or annoyed by the ads asking for donations to help children at risk in the 3rd world yet feel a punch in the gut when abused animals come onto the screen?

[Can'tHexTheX]

Here's what I don't get:

Every X-Men member has killed at least a dozen people. Wolverine's kill count is somewhere in the 30,000 people range. Beast and Xavier killed billions during their time with the Illuminati, as did Black Panther and Namor. Cable and Bishop and Hope have absurd kill numbers. Most of the X-Men would rank among the most prolific serial killers by our world's stats.

Yet apparently the worst thing ever is Scott kind of sort of cheating on Jean.

That's just absurd to me.

People take more intimate and personal slights more personally.