Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[Peanutsinspace]

But that's how marvel works.
They did the same to scott/maddie and Scott/Jean.
what better way to prop up the next thing than making the previous one look bad?

I know, I know but dammit, give me my hope!

[Ulfhammer]

Which brings us to the same argument, ad nauseum. You believing that people like me, who harp and harp on what Scott did, are giving Jean a free pass. Meanwhile, I have never done that. As always, in my mind, it's the magnitude of the crimes. After Scott came back, Jean kissed Logan once( I put the Casey kiss on Logan). Scott had an ongoing psychic affair with a world class telepath.

Another as always. For some people cheating is cheating and they don't care the degree. To me. Scott crossed the line into adultery. The crimes are not equal so I don't treat them the same and I'm never going to treat them the same.

Also, Jean's actions were spurred by Scott shutting her out emotionally and physically for 5 months. This is stated in the books. Certainly this doesn't excuse what she did with Logan, but there is some context there. I did not see where Jean in any way pushed Scott into what he did with Emma. In my view, that was more about what he was going through in the aftermath of his experience with Apocalypse.

Different day, same argument. I will say that I share your fondness for that a bit outdated Silver Age dialogue.

Actually the argument of what was worse is not important to this point. If the goal is to get Jean and Scott back to where they were in '97 than both of them have to work through, and correct the vulnerabilities that they both created in the relationship. It's not a matter of magnitude of blame. Just because you might think that Scott's was the greater issue, that doesn't mean that Jean's handling of the their problems doesn't need some attention as well. That's my entire point here.

[Ulfhammer]

No wonder you were a fan of my Joelle Jones jott piece... at least I think you were, lol

I think I was too.

[phoenixzero23]

I know, I know but dammit, give me my hope!

If you're looking for a bright side, at least they didn't kill Emma. That's better than what happened to Maddie or Jean

[Ulfhammer]

They've already reconciled. As thin as PR #5 was, it nevertheless happened. Scott and Jean weren't tentative or hesitant about each other. They embraced. They reiterated their love for each other. Who and what they are to each other isn't in question. The question before them now is "where do we go from here?".

I would've liked a more substantial reunion, too, but we got what we got.

Sounds like we may have differing definitions of reconciliation. To me it's more than just a cessation of hostilities, it's a restoration of previous relations. I think there's plenty of evidence to suggest we aren't there yet.

First, Rosenberg says we aren't. He suggests that was a goodbye, nothing more. YMMV with creator comments on Twitter but obviously he's in a position to speak on the matter with authority. Secondly, both Scott and Jean have had opportunities to reunite, and both of them have chosen other outcomes. I recall a time when nothing would keep them apart. Individually I agreed with both decisions, but the fact remains. Third, forgiving isn't going to fix Scott's insecurities or doubts and it won't do the same for Jean either. PR wasn't a fix because the underlying problem wasn't corrected. Unless of course we're suggesting that Scott's return purged Apocalypse influence.

Emma is likely to be mentioned, yes, but she's not the problem anymore. Scott's relationship with her is over. As you say, the obstacles to Jott's future now lie with Scott and Jean themselves--THAT is the appropriate topic for them to discuss. The point is that it's not about Emma; it's about Scott and Jean.

That said, I suspect Jean/Bishop (or Jean/whoever) is going to preempt, or at least postpone, all that.

I don't think Marvel is interested in such resolution. From their POV, the affair is a 15-year-old storyline--ancient history. As I've said before, where I expect they're going is resetting Jott to will-they-or-won't-they mode.

So we agree that Emma's going to come up. I hope we also agree that if Scott does suggest that the problem (all his problems, not just the affair) was Emma and not him, we'll be terribly disappointed. I will be anyway. Good guys don't blame their ex's for their personal failings. I actually think Emma belongs with the X-Men and she really needs some of them to believe that too. If anything it should be Scott defending Emma's place in the X-Men, relationship nonsense aside.

[JeisonWolf]

That seems to be the case, the problem is whoever is paired Cyclops after. You see there are people who never liked scemma because of how it started or becase some had a hard time seeing her as something different than a villain (which i know she isn't even if i don't like her). But whatever Cyclops starts now won't have that problem or the love triangles with Jean. I would like to see Cyclops win Jean's love back but if Jean is dating someone (nothing wrong with that) i think Cyclops fans would hate to see Scott behind her. Some of them have a bizarre view on Jean and jott.
So i have no doubt Cyclops will jump into a relationship and is going to be perfect, that's what worries me.

edit

Regardless of who was, I would not agree that he/she was crying for his/her ex while the other is happy in a relationship, makes the character look pathetic and only creates more hatred towards his/her ex. Look at Black Bolt and Medusa, he was thinking about her and telling a guy how much he loved her while she was sleeping with another and telling this guy that he is really who she loves. I heard something like this happened with Hawkman, he was thinking about how much he loves Hawkgirl while she was happy on a date with John Stewart ... well I don't want this to happen with Jott, if Scott comes back and Jean is with someone else is better that he seeks his way away from them, eventually he can find another girl with whom he has a new relationship, maybe this is not the best for Jott but the other alternative was worse, I'm talking about Scott but if the roles were reversed I would also agree that Jean was looking for her way away from Scott if he does not want to be with her and continue with Emma for example.

Too neat and tidy. Mr. Clean neat and tidy in fact. Also completely hollow. Zero effort reconciliation equal zero reconciliation.

Jean forgiving Scott for the affair isn't the point. Their marriage was vulnerable before then. Emma just took advantage. It's impossible to discuss that vulnerability, and fix it, without discussing how it was exploited. Emma's going to come up in any genuine attempt to do so.

It wouldn't kill Jean to come clean on her "issues" with Logan either. I'm sick of us, the fans, acting as Jean apologists for stuff that happened that contributed to that vulnerability. Whether it mattered, was acted on or even known about by Scott is beside the point. If my wife and I put our physical and emotional relationship on pause for months at a time, and she decided that was due cause to proposition someone waiting in the wings, that's a serious problem, regardless of whatever naughtiness I was up to in the meantime (which in Scott's case was also a serious problem).

Marvel hasn't even come close to resolving these issues. It starts with forgiveness, or at least the willingness to forgive eventually, but it certainly doesn't end there.

I agree both Jean and Scott should talk about what happened, BOTH made mistakes, each within a context that allows forgiveness, but they also made mistakes and the best way to solve it and move forward is talk abouth them to open the way to new and with luck to better stories.

I have a soft spot for this corny dialogue. Recently when I read early Uncanny and Classic X-men issues to my pre-teen daughters, Scott and Jean's "love talk" as they called it was always a giggle worthy highlight because it's so over the top. At one point after reading a "love talk" free issue they broke into a spontaneous improv of Jean trying to profess her love for Scott without ever actually saying it. IIRC it involved a very passionate brewing of Scott's coffee on Jean's part and how the portions of milk and sugar had to be just right so Scott could taste the love in every sip. There were also muffins. I really wish I had recorded it. That was gold, even though I suspect Scott takes his coffee black.

hahaha they are very sweet, this is really funny and I would not be surprised Logan said that Jean's coffee was horrible ... lol

Which brings us to the same argument, ad nauseum. You believing that people like me, who harp and harp on what Scott did, are giving Jean a free pass. Meanwhile, I have never done that. As always, in my mind, it's the magnitude of the crimes. After Scott came back, Jean kissed Logan once( I put the Casey kiss on Logan). Scott had an ongoing psychic affair with a world class telepath.

Another as always. For some people cheating is cheating and they don't care the degree. To me. Scott crossed the line into adultery. The crimes are not equal so I don't treat them the same and I'm never going to treat them the same.

Also, Jean's actions were spurred by Scott shutting her out emotionally and physically for 5 months. This is stated in the books. Certainly this doesn't excuse what she did with Logan, but there is some context there. I did not see where Jean in any way pushed Scott into what he did with Emma. In my view, that was more about what he was going through in the aftermath of his experience with Apocalypse.

Different day, same argument. I will say that I share your fondness for that a bit outdated Silver Age dialogue.

Even if Jean's kiss is "less serious" it is still something bad and that she herself did without anyone forcing her to anything. Both have a context to understand their actions, Jean felt alone because Scott had abandoned her physically and emotionally for months, but Scott did that because he has always had Jean on a pedestal and considers her almost as a saint even if she is his own wife, so to open and Jean saw all that evil and darkness that he had seen and lived thanks to Apocalypse was unthinkable for him, so he went to ask Emma for help, someone who was far from being a good girl like Jean , Emma took this and seduced him using the image of Jean and convincing him that it was not bad because they were only thoughts, therefore both made mistakes and the two must talk about those issues to move on.

[Wiccan]

Unpopular opinion probably, but I don't feel like Emma really "belongs with the X-Men". At least not the main/core team. During New X-Men they just kind of took her because she was jobless and wanting to help after what happened to Genosha. But it was mostly only a professional relationship, she never had that family feeling that most X-Men like the O5, Logan, Storm, Nightcrawler, Kitty, Colossus, Rogue, Gambit and etc all have. Even after her relationship with Scott started that didn't really change that much, most people just tolerated her.

[Ulfhammer]

Unpopular opinion probably, but I don't feel like Emma really "belongs with the X-Men". At least not the main/core team. During New X-Men they just kind of took her because she was jobless and wanting to help after what happened to Genosha. But it was mostly only a professional relationship, she never had that family feeling that most X-Men like the O5, Logan, Storm, Nightcrawler, Kitty, Colossus, Rogue, Gambit and etc all have. Even after her relationship with Scott started that didn't really change that much, most people just tolerated her.

Emma's arrogance and natural revulsion to making friends shouldn't be the deciding factor as to whether she belongs on the team or not. This kind of feels like voting the annoying kid off the island to me. She deserves some consideration for what she has accomplished with the X-Men.

[spirit2011]

Too neat and tidy. Mr. Clean neat and tidy in fact. Also completely hollow. Zero effort reconciliation equal zero reconciliation.

Jean forgiving Scott for the affair isn't the point. Their marriage was vulnerable before then. Emma just took advantage. It's impossible to discuss that vulnerability, and fix it, without discussing how it was exploited. Emma's going to come up in any genuine attempt to do so.

It wouldn't kill Jean to come clean on her "issues" with Logan either. I'm sick of us, the fans, acting as Jean apologists for stuff that happened that contributed to that vulnerability. Whether it mattered, was acted on or even known about by Scott is beside the point. If my wife and I put our physical and emotional relationship on pause for months at a time, and she decided that was due cause to proposition someone waiting in the wings, that's a serious problem, regardless of whatever naughtiness I was up to in the meantime (which in Scott's case was also a serious problem).

Marvel hasn't even come close to resolving these issues. It starts with forgiveness, or at least the willingness to forgive eventually, but it certainly doesn't end there.

When Jean decided to go for cheating? why do you think that?

[MosSuperman]

When Jean decided to go for cheating? why do you think that?

Because she did it before lmao.

[FUBAR007]

Sounds like we may have differing definitions of reconciliation. To me it's more than just a cessation of hostilities, it's a restoration of previous relations.

Yeah, you're going by a much broader definition of "reconciliation" than I am. I don't equate it to getting back together as if everything's fine but more that they've reached an understanding and are back on good terms. They're no longer estranged from each other.

I do think you're downplaying where the two of them are emotionally. "I thought about you every day" and "I'll always love you" aren't things one says to an ex-spouse one is reticent or unsure about getting back together with. Again, they know full well who and what they are to each other. What's in question is how they move forward.

As I said before, though, I suspect all of this is about to be moot, at least temporarily, due to Jean/Bishop.

First, Rosenberg says we aren't. He suggests that was a goodbye, nothing more. YMMV with creator comments on Twitter but obviously he's in a position to speak on the matter with authority. Secondly, both Scott and Jean have had opportunities to reunite, and both of them have chosen other outcomes. I recall a time when nothing would keep them apart. Individually I agreed with both decisions, but the fact remains. Third, forgiving isn't going to fix Scott's insecurities or doubts and it won't do the same for Jean either. PR wasn't a fix because the underlying problem wasn't corrected. Unless of course we're suggesting that Scott's return purged Apocalypse influence.

Scott and Jean both choosing other outcomes is illustrative of them choosing what they feel is their duty. Subordinating their personal desires to their responsibilities as X-Men. That's completely in-character for both of them and, to me, doesn't have any bearing on how they feel about each other.

Canonically, Apocalypse's influence hasn't been a factor since Morrison's run. At this point, any insecurities weighing Scott down would revolve around his guilt over Xavier's death and his in extremis actions as RightClops. From there, the issue is whether or how much Jean blames Scott for what he did. Her comments and behavior since her resurrection suggest she'd be entirely sympathetic.

No, I don't think Scott and Jean are getting back together anytime soon, but that's a consequence of circumstances contrived by Marvel to keep them apart more than of their remaining psychological issues.

I know you want a proper coda to the affair and Morrison's deconstruction of their relationship. I'd like one, too. It's the perfect subject for a Simonson/Lobdell-style Jott heart-to-heart story. I just don't think we're ever going to get one. It's been too long, and Marvel is hellbent on moving on.

So we agree that Emma's going to come up. I hope we also agree that if Scott does suggest that the problem (all his problems, not just the affair) was Emma and not him, we'll be terribly disappointed. I will be anyway. Good guys don't blame their ex's for their personal failings. I actually think Emma belongs with the X-Men and she really needs some of them to believe that too. If anything it should be Scott defending Emma's place in the X-Men, relationship nonsense aside.

I'd be irritated in the sense that I don't think Scott should blame Emma for his choices and that it would be highly out of character for him to do so.

As for Emma herself, I couldn't care less. You're more sympathetic to her than I am. IMO, she stuck her nose in where it didn't belong, she didn't deserve to take Jean's place with Scott, and she got her karmic comeuppance when Scott finally rejected her. She got away with way more than she should have for far longer than she should have and so has zero room to complain. At this point, she's out of the Jott equation and should stay that way.

Regarding Emma's place with the X-Men, I can't see her being on the same team with Scott and Jean or working out of the same place. Unless under very extreme circumstances, it'd just be too weird for them. On a separate X-Men team, or leading one? Perhaps. Occasional fair-weather ally? Sure. Though Emma would surely love to troll Jean.

At this stage, I see Emma's role as somewhat analogous to Magneto's. She's not straight-up evil, but she does regularly cross the line. Whether she's an ally or enemy of the X-Men will depend on the situation.

[Legaldrugdealer]

I think I was too.

Here is a refresher and for those who somehow haven't seen

[Gray Lensman]

Emma's arrogance and natural revulsion to making friends shouldn't be the deciding factor as to whether she belongs on the team or not. This kind of feels like voting the annoying kid off the island to me. She deserves some consideration for what she has accomplished with the X-Men.

Where I see Emma going is to be more of a 'rogue' style villain - going on the sliding morality scale of Hero, Anti-Hero, Rogue, Villain. After everything she has done and why over the last 15+ years, I find her a poor fit for a true villainous character even if she was originally conceived of as one.

Her past with both Jean and Scott give her great potential as an occasional adversary and ally depending on the needs of the story.

[Havok83]

The upcoming writers of Jean in Marvelous X-Men talk about their love for the Summers-Grey family unit

http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com...mily-and-more/

[TheDeadSpace]

Here is a refresher and for those who somehow haven't seen

I said it before and I'll say it again. That truly is an amazing piece of art.