Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[TheCape]

According to this place, he's a symbol of hate, toxic masculinity and whatever buzzwords I can't come up with, so I guess he deserves all he got. It's seriously sad. If anything, Ulfhammer's post makes me wish Scott just stayed away from Jean and the rest of the X-Men, for his own good lol

You forgot a devil to whatever women that dates him

[v_jeovanne]

Maybe on the surface a Jean/Bishop relationship started from the AoXM AU allows them to keep their moral credibility but it also hurts the characters in that the basis was manufactured by another person and they choose to keep it going anyway. This applies to any relationship carried over into the main MU -considered the implications. I wonder if Marvel has even I mean, Jean is a powerful telepath but can't separate those memories from reality? Or worse - chooses not to?

And just reading that first paragraph makes me sad for Scott, how can anyone think he deserves any further antagonism?

So this is the story that Thompson said that Scott and Jean fans will enjoy and give him a chance? I have to admire his level of evil.

[Ulfhammer]

Maybe on the surface a Jean/Bishop relationship started from the AoXM AU allows them to keep their moral credibility but it also hurts the characters in that the basis was manufactured by another person and they choose to keep it going anyway. This applies to any relationship carried over into the main MU - I wonder if Marvel has even considered the implications. I mean, Jean is a powerful telepath but can't separate those memories from reality? Or worse - chooses not to?

And just reading that first paragraph makes me sad for Scott, how can anyone think he deserves any further antagonism?

Hell you are so right.

According to this place, he's a symbol of hate, toxic masculinity and whatever buzzwords I can't come up with, so I guess he deserves all he got. It's seriously sad. If anything, Ulfhammer's post makes me wish Scott just stayed away from Jean and the rest of the X-Men, for his own good lol

Ulfhammer knows that I’d be happy to see Jott come back for y’all, but I don’t want him involved in this if it’s gonna go badly for him.

There's really two very different perspectives on this. Either you understand and accept Scott and Jean's history in the context of editorial descisions or you look at them entirely from the perspective of what's on the panel.

Let's take the second perspective first, the idea that we only accept on panel evidence. From that point of view, there's a lot of problems with their relationship, with Scott's history and conduct and Jean's to a lesser extent. There's a legitimate case to made that Scott has made some very poor decisions, both regarding Jean, Maddie, Emma and the X-Men at large. The majority of the time Scott was solid, but there were cases where he made very important decisions and he made them wrong. I don't think anyone can argue that it's happened.

Sure the Rightclops fans will say that Scott never did anything wrong, but I think if we really consider it, we know that's not the case. So some criticism of Scott is okay. Hell, it's probably even healthy. But on the whole the guy has taken far more flak than he deserves. Jean's also culpable for the state of their marriage as well, so I can't let her off the hook either. I do think she's the less guilty party, but I accept that's very much my own perspective. Scott's flawed and fell short of the man he hoped he'd be, Jean's flawed and failed to pull out all the stops to save her marriage, and their relationship is tainted forever because of the specter of the affair. Some even point back to Scott's marriage with Maddie as evidence that Scott and Jean are tainted. I disagree but people are free to have their interpretations.

In the same vein, Scott's experiences with the X-Men the last several years have been horrid. They've been almost universally hypocritical, condescending and disloyal all while turning a blind eye to issues that could absolutely end mutants. Despite the many years of shared struggle they have with Scott, in the end they failed him and each other. As I said, Scott wasn't perfect, but he deserved some rope when he needed it, and he also deserved to have his closest friends not give up on him. I can certainly see the argument that the X-Men don't deserve Scott.

Let's put this into the perspective of the editorial decision making process that drove all this. In each of the areas where Scott has fallen short or him and Jean collectively have fallen short, or the X-Men around Scott have fallen short, there's been varying degrees of editorial interference or writer agendas at work. In Maddie's case, that was a directive from Shooter. In Emma's case, that was a core part of what Morrison wanted to accomplish. Rightclops is borne out of Axel's take on M-Day and what happened after. With AoXM it's unclear how editorially motivated it is, but we'd be fools to think JDW doesn't have a firm hand on the wheel this early in his tenure as group editor.

So for me, I understand what's happened on panel, but my interpretation of it is informed by what I understand about the editorial process at Marvel. It's not one or the other. It's both. If I was to look strictly at the on panel evidence, it would be hard to be rooting for Jott or wanting Scott back in the X-Men family. I do want those things. Nothing is truly tainted because we can understand that what happened on panel happened to serve more than just the characters on the page. I think we all know people around here who embrace the opposite attitude. I can respect their perspective, and their knowledge, even if I don't share it. Claremont is an example of that. For him, Scott is forever tainted because of the Maddie affair, even though he understood intimately how, and why it came to pass.

It comes down to hope. I have hope that these situations can be rectified. I have hope that Jean and Scott will be together again, and it will be good. I have hope that Scott can reconcile with the X-Men in a way that gives everyone their dignity. If it doesn't happen I won't blame Jean or Scott or Bishop or Logan or whoever else appears to be the problem. I'll lay that blame squarely on the creators, who carry the promise of fulfilling that hope, or not. That doesn't change that Scott belongs with the X-Men. That doesn't change that Scott and Jean belong together. It's simply a matter of whether or not editorial shares those views and succeeds at executing on them. If they don't, they will have failed the X-Men.

[Wiccan]

I think we need to consider that, while Jean and Scott technically haven't been together for 14 years or so, for Jean it has only been... 1 year in publication since she has been away from Scott? 2 or 3 if you already count them as not being together on New X-Men after the affair? If you wanna reach and count Jeen, it would be 6+, but I really don't think that's fair. Honestly sorry to not feel enough for some of you guys, but the whole "Oh, poor Scott looked so bad because of the affair!" makes me eye roll. After that his focus on the franchise only increased and increased over the years. While Jean got fucking killed because of it. X-Men Red that ended like yesterday was the first book she ever starred on regularly since that! Please.

[phoenixzero23]

I think we need to consider that, while Jean and Scott technically haven't been together for 14 years or so, for Jean it has only been... 1 year in publication since she has been away from Scott? 2 or 3 if you already count them as not being together on New X-Men after the affair? If you wanna reach and count Jeen, it would be 6+, but I really don't think that's fair. Honestly sorry to not feel enough for some of you guys, but the whole "Oh, poor Scott looked so bad because of the affair!" makes me eye roll. After that his focus on the franchise only increased and increased over the years. While Jean got fucking killed because of it. X-Men Red that ended like yesterday was the first book she ever starred on regularly since that! Please.

yeah, i agree Jean was treated like trash, so i don't get the complains about who is being treated worse, but i don't think their relationship is to blame for what happened. if anything it is just another victim of marvel not caring at all about jean

[PrezValentine]

I think we need to consider that, while Jean and Scott technically haven't been together for 14 years or so, for Jean it has only been... 1 year in publication since she has been away from Scott? 2 or 3 if you already count them as not being together on New X-Men after the affair? If you wanna reach and count Jeen, it would be 6+, but I really don't think that's fair. Honestly sorry to not feel enough for some of you guys, but the whole "Oh, poor Scott looked so bad because of the affair!" makes me eye roll. After that his focus on the franchise only increased and increased over the years. While Jean got fucking killed because of it. X-Men Red that ended like yesterday was the first book she ever starred on regularly since that! Please.

I don't think anyone here is asking for sympathy or whatever lol Scott already got a lot of shit from the X-Office since AvX and is still hated by a bunch of fans. We just think that's bad and don't want him to still be mistreated, but we all know White's stance at this point, so I guess we'll have to cringe through it while Jean goes unscathed. Scott won't steal her spotlight, so no worries I guess, at least on Jean's side.

[Wiccan]

yeah, i agree Jean was treated like trash, so i don't get the complains about who is being treated worse, but i don't think their relationship is to blame for what happened. if anything it is just another victim of marvel not caring at all about jean

Their relationship is definetely related to it. Marvel's 2000's editorial thought Emma was a better girlfriend for Cyclops and so Jean wasn't needed anymore. I don't blame this to Cyclops's character like some here, from an in-story POV it makes no sense, and I don't think it even comes from old editorial being Scott's fanboys as most haters claim, as much as it just comes from plain sexism that female characters are only worth as love interests.

I don't think anyone here is asking for sympathy or whatever lol Scott already got a lot of shit from the X-Office since AvX and is still hated by a bunch of fans. We just think that's bad and don't want him to still be mistreated, but we all know White's stance at this point, so I guess we'll have to cringe through it while Jean goes unscathed. Scott won't steal her spotlight, so no worries I guess, at least on Jean's side.

I don't see a problem in worrying about how Scott is gonna be treated from now on, especially considering his return issue pushed the "Cyclops Was Wrong" narrative. I just don't like the narrative that on the past, back to the whole Scemma thing, Scott was the one who was getting shitted on. And the whole "Scott will/won't steal her spotlight" has nothing to do with what I'm talking about honestly.

[phoenixzero23]

Their relationship is definetely related to it. Marvel's 2000's editorial thought Emma was a better girlfriend for Cyclops and so Jean wasn't needed anymore. I don't blame this to Cyclops's character like some here, from an in-story POV it makes no sense, and I don't think it even comes from old editorial being Scott's fanboys as most haters claim, as much as it just comes from plain sexism that female characters are only worth as love interests.

I don't know. there are some writers and editors that just don't like Jean. I believe Claremont, Morrison and Quesada are part of that group. It wasn't only about pairing jean or not with someone else. For some writers Jean is better off dead, as a symbol of tragedy. I disagree with that but i'm not going to deny that this is a phylosophy that ruled marvel for a time. Which doesn't matter anymore because she is back.

[Hizashi]

There's really two very different perspectives on this. Either you understand and accept Scott and Jean's history in the context of editorial descisions or you look at them entirely from the perspective of what's on the panel.

(...)

I know I've tried to consider both and failed, but I couldn't agree with you more.

[Ulfhammer]

Honestly sorry to not feel enough for some of you guys, but the whole "Oh, poor Scott looked so bad because of the affair!" makes me eye roll. After that his focus on the franchise only increased and increased over the years. While Jean got fucking killed because of it. X-Men Red that ended like yesterday was the first book she ever starred on regularly since that! Please.

I'm always amazed at how tribal X-Men fans seem to be. I've been a fan of Jean's as long as I've been a fan of Scott's. If you think the outcome of Morrison's run was anything I would have wanted to happen, you'd be dead wrong. Just because Jean was killed doesn't mean it was consequence free for Scott either. Everyone lost in that scenario. This is about more than the affair, and more than Maddie too. This is about editorial choices. Editorial had a choice to make Scott look bad or make Jean look bad. Every time they've had that choice they've chosen Scott. It's not debatable.

Maybe you would have preferred the reverse? Maybe you'd have preferred that Scott die in the DPS and come back to find Jean married to Summers brother X with a baby, whom she'd leave behind. Maybe you'd have preferred she be the one to follow through on her proposition to Logan, and Scott dies in Planet X instead. Maybe you'd have preferred that Jean be on the receiving end of M-Day, Schism, AvX, imprisonment at the hands of the Avengers, suicidal depression, the systematic abandonment of her closest friends, and an ignominious death mourned by basically no one. You'd probably also prefer Marvel continuously beat readers over the head with how much of a monster Jean is. If you really believe that benefited Scott and you'd like Jean to reap those same benefits, I suggest you reach out to Marvel and make your wishes known. Good luck with that.

Here's the crux of the matter. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. You want Jean to have the same editorial consideration Scott got, then you get everything, not just the shiny bits you want. Give that some thought.

[Wiccan]

I don't know. there are some writers and editors that just don't like Jean. I believe Claremont, Morrison and Quesada are part of that group. It wasn't only about pairing jean or not with someone else. For some writers Jean is better off dead, as a symbol of tragedy. I disagree with that but i'm not going to deny that this is a phylosophy that ruled marvel for a time. Which doesn't matter anymore because she is back.

I don't think Claremont hates Jean. He just doesn't like that her death got undone and retconned. Especially cause the original retcon in a way discarded everything he wrote with her. And then he just became super petty about Maddie. And anyway I don't think he had much influence over the editorial decision to kill her again. Morrison, well, I remember people saying he originally wanted for Jean to come back. But I also remember someone saying he claimed her death and Scott choosing Emma represented a better path for the X-Men or whatever. So he either didn't even want her death just for what you're saying, or he also wanted her dead for Scemma. If someone could provide evidence of either one I'd be glad. Quesada was just super sexist in general. Most female characters only suffered throughout his realm.

[Hizashi]

I think we need to consider that, while Jean and Scott technically haven't been together for 14 years or so, for Jean it has only been... 1 year in publication since she has been away from Scott? 2 or 3 if you already count them as not being together on New X-Men after the affair? If you wanna reach and count Jeen, it would be 6+, but I really don't think that's fair. Honestly sorry to not feel enough for some of you guys, but the whole "Oh, poor Scott looked so bad because of the affair!" makes me eye roll. After that his focus on the franchise only increased and increased over the years. While Jean got fucking killed because of it. X-Men Red that ended like yesterday was the first book she ever starred on regularly since that! Please.

yeah, i agree Jean was treated like trash, so i don't get the complains about who is being treated worse, but i don't think their relationship is to blame for what happened. if anything it is just another victim of marvel not caring at all about jean

It's not a matter of who had it worse, it's that two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't see a problem in worrying about how Scott is gonna be treated from now on, especially considering his return issue pushed the "Cyclops Was Wrong" narrative. I just don't like the narrative that on the past, back to the whole Scemma thing, Scott was the one who was getting shitted on. And the whole "Scott will/won't steal her spotlight" has nothing to do with what I'm talking about honestly.

There wasn't an active attempt to hurt the character but certainly a disregard for how the stories being told with him reflected on him even then. After that, there certainly was an attempt to sell the idea that Scott was a monster/villain and many people bought it and Marvel might be on the verge of doubling-down on that.

[Ulfhammer]

I don't know. there are some writers and editors that just don't like Jean. I believe Claremont, Morrison and Quesada are part of that group. It wasn't only about pairing jean or not with someone else. For some writers Jean is better off dead, as a symbol of tragedy. I disagree with that but i'm not going to deny that this is a phylosophy that ruled marvel for a time. Which doesn't matter anymore because she is back.

Morrison and Quesada sure. Claremont built the modern incarnation of Jean and elevated her beyond the "girl on the team". He may have ultimately ended up more enamored with Storm, but I think Jean was his first real love. Just like with Scott, Jean suffered due to Shooters interference in the DPS. Once Claremont felt he had no choice but to kill her off, I think for him that was the end. I'll always recognize the part he played in making Jean who she is, telling great stories with her, and really making something of Jean and Scott as a couple. He was also heavily involved with Simonson's X-Factor that got this couple back on track.

Jean fans, and Jott fans owe Claremont a lot.

[Ulfhammer]

I know I've tried to consider both and failed, but I couldn't agree with you more.

I'd go a little crazy if I couldn't put some of the more terrible things into perspective. See the truth is we all protect what we love and applying context make terrible things a little more acceptable.

Take Jean cutting Rey loose in Extermination 5. It's easy to look at her hanging out with her friends after that, toasting Scott because they were all thinking about who they'd lost and think, what the hell? The reality is that a writer or editor made that choice. Maybe it was because they wanted Rey rescued by someone else. Maybe they wanted Rey to stay in the 616 during AoXM. Maybe they just overlooked it. Who knows. The point is that these decisions can't strictly be interpreted based on what we read. If we did, all of our heroes would end up looking pretty terrible. Context matters.

[AJpyro]

I'd go a little crazy if I couldn't put some of the more terrible things into perspective. See the truth is we all protect what we love and applying context make terrible things a little more acceptable.

Take Jean cutting Rey loose in Extermination 5. It's easy to look at her hanging out with her friends after that, toasting Scott because they were all thinking about who they'd lost and think, what the hell? The reality is that a writer or editor made that choice. Maybe it was because they wanted Rey rescued by someone else. Maybe they wanted Rey to stay in the 616 during AoXM. Maybe they just overlooked it. Who knows. The point is that these decisions can't strictly be interpreted based on what we read. If we did, all of our heroes would end up looking pretty terrible. Context matters.

It does. It should. It really really should.