Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[Wiccan]

I'm always amazed at how tribal X-Men fans seem to be. I've been a fan of Jean's as long as I've been a fan of Scott's. If you think the outcome of Morrison's run was anything I would have wanted to happen, you'd be dead wrong. Just because Jean was killed doesn't mean it was consequence free for Scott either. Everyone lost in that scenario. This is about more than the affair, and more than Maddie too. This is about editorial choices. Editorial had a choice to make Scott look bad or make Jean look bad. Every time they've had that choice they've chosen Scott. It's not debatable.

Maybe you would have preferred the reverse? Maybe you'd have preferred that Scott die in the DPS and come back to find Jean married to Summers brother X with a baby, whom she'd leave behind. Maybe you'd have preferred she be the one to follow through on her proposition to Logan, and Scott dies in Planet X instead. Maybe you'd have preferred that Jean be on the receiving end of M-Day, Schism, AvX, imprisonment at the hands of the Avengers, suicidal depression, the systematic abandonment of her closest friends, and an ignominious death mourned by basically no one. You'd probably also prefer Marvel continuously beat readers over the head with how much of a monster Jean is. If you really believe that benefited Scott and you'd like Jean to reap those same benefits, I suggest you reach out to Marvel and make your wishes known. Good luck with that.

Here's the crux of the matter. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. You want Jean to have the same editorial consideration Scott got, then you get everything, not just the shiny bits you want. Give that some thought.

I don't think some of what you're saying makes much sense. You can't literally just reverse most of those stories. A lot about how those stories went is related to the core of Jean and Scott's characters. Scott has always been portrayed as more flawed in a way. That's not a point against Scott. It makes him relatable and human. He and Jean have always been different types of characters. I personally don't find Jean a very relatable character. I can see why she would be for some women, but she has always been presented as more of a character you would admire rather than relate to. The original Jott dynamic was all about Scott being angsty and insecure and Jean trying to break him out of the shell.

Anyway, to one of the reasonable reverse scenarios, that is related to the era I was discussing, the one where Jean/Logan becomes a thing and Scott dies instead and she gets to be a main character on M-Day, Schism and etc(Not AvX, that story doesn't make any sense with her alive). Yes I probably would have liked that. I love the idea of Jean being a leader, the center of the franchise and interacting with the overall MU. Why wouldn't I? That's exactly the reason I don't understand why most Scott fans play victim about it. I guess as someone who prefers oldschool Scott AFAIK it makes sense that you weren't pleased with the direction for him, but that doesn't mean he got screwed over. Those decisions made him the central X-Men character and gained him a legion of fans.

[lurkerforyears]

I don't know. there are some writers and editors that just don't like Jean. I believe Claremont, Morrison and Quesada are part of that group. It wasn't only about pairing jean or not with someone else. For some writers Jean is better off dead, as a symbol of tragedy. I disagree with that but i'm not going to deny that this is a phylosophy that ruled marvel for a time. Which doesn't matter anymore because she is back.

I don't think it's about Jean, it's about artistic integrity. If the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Saga Claremont Byrne collaboration is a masterpiece and culturally significant, undoing the death of Jean and creating retcons, cheapens it in a way. Like putting pants on Michelangelo's David.
If the Phoenix Saga had not become so iconic and prestigious and famous, then resurrecting Jean wouldnt have been an issue.

Also, Claremont changed rosters radically a lot, he had the idea of characters changing, aging, retiring, he must have felt resurrecting Jean and the whole x-factor thing with the original 5 was a big involution. He wanted to push comics beyond what editorial was willing to do.

[TheDeadSpace]

I'm always amazed at how tribal X-Men fans seem to be. I've been a fan of Jean's as long as I've been a fan of Scott's. If you think the outcome of Morrison's run was anything I would have wanted to happen, you'd be dead wrong. Just because Jean was killed doesn't mean it was consequence free for Scott either. Everyone lost in that scenario. This is about more than the affair, and more than Maddie too. This is about editorial choices. Editorial had a choice to make Scott look bad or make Jean look bad. Every time they've had that choice they've chosen Scott. It's not debatable.

Maybe you would have preferred the reverse? Maybe you'd have preferred that Scott die in the DPS and come back to find Jean married to Summers brother X with a baby, whom she'd leave behind. Maybe you'd have preferred she be the one to follow through on her proposition to Logan, and Scott dies in Planet X instead. Maybe you'd have preferred that Jean be on the receiving end of M-Day, Schism, AvX, imprisonment at the hands of the Avengers, suicidal depression, the systematic abandonment of her closest friends, and an ignominious death mourned by basically no one. You'd probably also prefer Marvel continuously beat readers over the head with how much of a monster Jean is. If you really believe that benefited Scott and you'd like Jean to reap those same benefits, I suggest you reach out to Marvel and make your wishes known. Good luck with that.

Here's the crux of the matter. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. You want Jean to have the same editorial consideration Scott got, then you get everything, not just the shiny bits you want. Give that some thought.

I agree with pretty much the entire post here, especially since the opposite view presents a situation that invalidates any form of complaint/view/communication due to the basis that "(blank) got it worse".

Regardless, I feel there are positives to view in everything, even in what's going on now. I can't really think of one for Scott and Jean currently, but there probably is one to consider. Uncanny seems to be the next stone in the path that leads to these two reuniting for better or worse. Can't necessarily say that I'm excited for it, but I guess I have no choice.

[Ulfhammer]

I don't think some of what you're saying makes much sense. You can't literally just reverse most of those stories. A lot about how those stories went is related to the core of Jean and Scott's characters. Scott has always been portrayed as more flawed in a way. That's not a point against Scott. It makes him relatable and human. He and Jean have always been different types of characters. I personally don't find Jean a very relatable character. I can see why she would be for some women, but she has always been presented as more of a character you would admire rather than relate to. The original Jott dynamic was all about Scott being angsty and insecure and Jean trying to break him out of the shell.

Anyway, to one of the reasonable reverse scenarios, that is related to the era I was discussing, the one where Jean/Logan becomes a thing and Scott dies instead and she gets to be a main character on M-Day, Schism and etc(Not AvX, that story doesn't make any sense with her alive). Yes I probably would have liked that. I love the idea of Jean being a leader, the center of the franchise and interacting with the overall MU. Why wouldn't I? That's exactly the reason I don't understand why most Scott fans play victim about it. I guess as someone who prefers oldschool Scott AFAIK it makes sense that you weren't pleased with the direction for him, but that doesn't mean he got screwed over. Those decisions made him the central X-Men character and gained him a legion of fans.

Again though, you are trying to cherry pick the stuff editorial did to Scott that you liked, but not the stuff you didn't. You argue that's because they are different characters and there's no way Jean could have made the choices Scott did. Scott's choices, and who he was, are the totality of editorial choices. You say Scott's always been more flawed, which from a moral standpoint I would completely disagree with. Even if that was the case, those flaws exist because of editorial and writer choices. Jean is the sum of those choices and so is Scott. You can't flip the script without changing who they fundamental are, and as a consequence, what they had to live through.

Both characters have reasons to play the victim card, because both of them have been victims. To suggest that one characters suffering invalidates another's, because in your mind it was greater, is a self defeating argument. There's always another character who's had it worse off.

[Ulfhammer]

I agree with pretty much the entire post here, especially since the opposite view presents a situation that invalidates any form of complaint/view/communication due to the basis that "(blank) got it worse".

Regardless, I feel there are positives to view in everything, even in what's going on now. I can't really think of one for Scott and Jean currently, but there probably is one to consider. Uncanny seems to be the next stone in the path that leads to these two reuniting for better or worse. Can't necessarily say that I'm excited for it, but I guess I have no choice.

The positive, if there is one, is that Marvel is throwing stones at Jott. You don't take shots at something that doesn't matter anymore, or isn't relevant. Take solace in our suffering because Marvel only really consistently punishes that which is most important to the franchise.

[phoenixzero23]

The positive, if there is one, is that Marvel is throwing stones at Jott. You don't take shots at something that doesn't matter anymore, or isn't relevant. Take solace in our suffering because Marvel only really consistently punishes that which is most important to the franchise.

It's really weird, how much punishment Marvel can still inflict into a relationship that hasn't been a thing for more than a decade.
Like how is that even posible?
Like FUBAR has said in the past, Marvel seems to think that this relationship is the status quo to disrupt but it is not. In fact many people don't even believe they love each other or are a good couple thanks to the years of butchery.

[AJpyro]

It's really weird, how much punishment Marvel can still inflict into a relationship that hasn't been a thing for more than a decade.
Like how is that even posible?
Like FUBAR has said in the past, Marvel seems to think that this relationship is the status quo to disrupt but it is not

As in many things, some people cannot let go.

[phoenixzero23]

As in many things, some people cannot let go.

Marvel let Jott go long ago, the problem is that if it's not a thing why keep denigrating him? that's the part that amuses me

[TheDeadSpace]

Marvel let Jott go long ago, the problem is that if it's not a thing why keep denigrating him? that's the part that amuses me

I'm not sure they let Jott go. Considering it's impact and relation to numerous stories and characters that are fundamental to the X-men, it's hard to get rid of. At the same time, Marvel seems insistent on pushing the X-men as a drama. Jott has the most potential for drama even if it seems like they are beating a dead horse. The best things never come easiest. Also just for the laughs considering the relationship at times:

[phoenixzero23]

I'm not sure they let Jott go. Considering it's impact and relation to numerous stories and characters that are fundamental to the X-men, it's hard to get rid of. At the same time, Marvel seems insistent on pushing the X-men as a drama. Jott has the most potential for drama even if it seems like they are beating a dead horse. The best things never come easiest. Also just for the laughs considering the relationship at times:

Lol






I miss this relationship

[Ulfhammer]

Marvel let Jott go long ago, the problem is that if it's not a thing why keep denigrating him? that's the part that amuses me

In asking that question, you have found the truth.

[Ulfhammer]

I'm not sure they let Jott go. Considering it's impact and relation to numerous stories and characters that are fundamental to the X-men, it's hard to get rid of. At the same time, Marvel seems insistent on pushing the X-men as a drama. Jott has the most potential for drama even if it seems like they are beating a dead horse. The best things never come easiest. Also just for the laughs considering the relationship at times:

You said it. It's in that netherworld between hope and despair that Marvel feels is the sweet spot for Jott I think. I can understand this perspective to some extent. Jott used to be the strongest and the most compelling when their backs were against a wall. Unfortunately that perpetually leads to zero payoffs because the era of quite issues and simply living in the context of all the madness that is the X-Men seems like a lost art. That was also some of my favorite moments of theirs.

[phoenixzero23]

In asking that question, you have found the truth.

I would honestly prefer if Marvel did something cute with them but they don't seem very interested at the moment.
I mean what was said a few post before is true Jean and Scott are so deepely connected from the very startt of the books to this day, their story is so intertwined that what happens to one of the characters has an effect on the other, even if they are not together and they will reach levels they aren't going to share with someone else. It would be so awesome if that connection was developed instead of sabotaged. How much fun would that be

[TheDeadSpace]

I would honestly prefer if Marvel did something cute with them but they don't seem very interested at the moment.
I mean what was said a few post before is true Jean and Scott are so deepely connected from the very startt of the books to this day, their story is so intertwined that what happens to one of the characters has an effect on the other, even if they are not together and they will reach levels they aren't going to share with someone else. It would be so awesome if that connection was developed instead of sabotaged. How much fun would that be

It'd be great, but at the same time there are numerous little things that make me think Jott is still in the foreseeable future. Apart from Scott, who else would be willing to share a psychic rapport with Jean or relate to all her life experiences? Why make Cable young and reference his connection to his parents? Scott and Jean may have their issues, but they are each others best friend first and foremost. If Marvel wants to make their love count to the new generations, they are going to have to fight for it. That's what makes it more valuable than others in my opinion. The fact that its been earned through time and trials.

[AJpyro]

You said it. It's in that netherworld between hope and despair that Marvel feels is the sweet spot for Jott I think. I can understand this perspective to some extent. Jott used to be the strongest and the most compelling when their backs were against a wall. Unfortunately that perpetually leads to zero payoffs because the era of quite issues and simply living in the context of all the madness that is the X-Men seems like a lost art. That was also some of my favorite moments of theirs.

Yeah but they milked that well dry and are currently digging into the Earth's crust to keep mining that drama well.