Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[JeisonWolf]

There's no indication that she recalls anything from the afterlife. She had ascended beyond humanity to state analogous of godhood free of the moral constraints of humanity; as the White Phoenix of the Crown, she had a higher purpose. I dont see him holding anything against her especially if he knew the context behind that given the HCT future. I also still see him owning his own actions and not blaming Jean. All Jean did was relieve him of his guilt. She didnt make him be with Emma. That was a consequence of it but he still chose Emma. Its not the worse thing in the world.

I don't see how Scott chose Emma, ​​everyone will have his opinion about it but guilt, remorse, our conscience and our morals are things that allow us to do things or not and are strongly attached to our personality, it's thanks to them we don't burn the car of the guy we hate or we don't cheat on our partner or we just don't kill another person. If Jean eliminate the guilt of Scott up to the point of making him don't worry to kiss his new lover in front of the grave of his recent death wife it is clear that it is something big not something as simple as simply to overcome the time of mourning quickly .
Even if Scott does not love Jean anymore he will continue to respect her, it is not in his character to commit such a great lack of respect and less to the one who supposedly was the person he loved the most. not from my point of view what Jean did was not something small was a movement that modified the personality of Scott to do something he didn't want, maybe she did it for the good of everyone, but that does not make that morally wrong.

[Ulfhammer]

Awww that's so sweet, when I have children I have to teach them to draw that for sure lol

Thanks, but I didn't teach her anything. Her class was doing watercolors and she just decided that's what she wanted to paint.

[Ulfhammer]

I always found a little dumb the whole Jean pushed Scemma. I only read Morrison's run once but i remember it was something like that Scott was going to quit the x-men for Jean's dead which made a bad future. On that future Jean awakened, kicked the bad guy but then reached for scott back in time telling him to continue living. that's how i understood it.
I didn't like it but it happened. I don't think Jean brainwashed anybody Scott just made a mistake, that's my opinion about it.

In reality looking for convoluted excuses could only complicate things more. Excuses never help in real life

Not excuses PZ, just possible explanations. I'm not trying to use this as a defense of anything, but you have to admit the whole HCT angle is complicated and problematic. As soon as Jean got involved and started pulling strings, it puts everyone's motives and control of their actions into question. You can suggest Jean had a smaller or bigger effect, but as soon as she had any effect, it muddies the waters.

[Ulfhammer]

That's an interesting take. I'm not sure how or why Scott would want to be with Jean if he learned about this hypothetical.

It's already hanging out there Hizashi. There's two stories people tell about HCT. In one Jean wipes away Scott's guilt and grief so he can act on his feelings for Emma. In the other, Jean influences Scott's feelings for Emma. Whichever scenario you subscribe to, Emma and Scott don't happen without Jean. Scott, Emma and Jean may never realize this, but regardless that's an undeniable fact. My post from yesterday is just me having some fun with the ridiculousness of the whole situation.

During Astonishing, there was talk of Scott possibly having his decisions be manipulated by Emma. Ironically, the only decision of Scott's that effected that run was manipulated by Jean.

As for how Scott would feel if he knew, I doubt he would be too disturbed by it. If Jean can get over the affair, which she seems to have, then I doubt getting over this would be too difficult for Scott. Jean did have a good reason.

[Ulfhammer]

Did you read Ulfhammer's post, it's a headcanon that puts a slightly darker take on what Jean did.

Actually I think it fits with how the PF effects Jean's reasoning when she manifests it. PS/DPS Jean was willing to alter decisions and perceptions. Her interactions with Kitty's parents is a good example of that. When she returned in X-Factor through NXM this never really occurred to my knowledge. Her second death though elevated her to WPotC and she spent her time in the WHR which I'd argue had an impact on her personality. Jean since she's been back has been much more willing to alter thoughts and perceptions of others.

If you consider that Jean already knew Emma and Scott had feelings for each other, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that she would ensure they acted on those feelings, especially given that she had to make some changes to alter the timeline anyway. Jean's death in NXM was fresh off the Search for Cyclops. It's not unreasonable that Jean would want to do everything in her power to ensure Scott's safety in her absence. Back in Extermination Jean tells Tyke that "She wouldn't be able to take losing you again". That could be a reference to Cyke's death in DoX, but I actually don't think that makes sense. She wasn't around for that. It could be a reference to Scott dying again in PR but Jean didn't seem that shaken up by the experience, and she knew he was already dead anyway. I actually think it's a reference to the Search for Cyclops. This was the last time Jean was truly distraught over losing Scott and from her POV, it's a relatively recent occurrence, no more than a couple years at most.

So I think she had the motivation and the means to accomplish what I described. I don't necessarily see it as a darker take, unless you suggest that Jean's propensity for overriding people's thoughts and perceptions in Uncanny and Red have been dark.

[Ulfhammer]

I don't see how Scott chose Emma, ​​everyone will have his opinion about it but guilt, remorse, our conscience and our morals are things that allow us to do things or not and are strongly attached to our personality, it's thanks to them we don't burn the car of the guy we hate or we don't cheat on our partner or we just don't kill another person. If Jean eliminate the guilt of Scott up to the point of making him don't worry to kiss his new lover in front of the grave of his recent death wife it is clear that it is something big not something as simple as simply to overcome the time of mourning quickly .
Even if Scott does not love Jean anymore he will continue to respect her, it is not in his character to commit such a great lack of respect and less to the one who supposedly was the person he loved the most. not from my point of view what Jean did was not something small was a movement that modified the personality of Scott to do something he didn't want, maybe she did it for the good of everyone, but that does not make that morally wrong.

I agree. This whole "she just removed Scott's guilt" angle is an attempt to minimize the impact. As you rightly point out, even if that's what it was, the impact was not small.

Regardless, there is no clear panel evidence to support Havok's assertion that it was just about guilt. It comes down to interpretation because the panel's at the beginning and end of HCT are purposefully vague. It could have been that, or it could have been more. I think it's just more palatable for people to accept it was something really small. As Havok points out Jean was in a godlike state. The morality of mortals was behind her. There was no reason for her to hold back, and every reasons for her to use the opportunity to give Scott a chance at happiness.

[TheDeadSpace]

Thanks, but I didn't teach her anything. Her class was doing watercolors and she just decided that's what she wanted to paint.

Aw man, that makes it even more adorable.

I agree. This whole "she just removed Scott's guilt" angle is an attempt to minimize the impact. As you rightly point out, even if that's what it was, the impact was not small.

Regardless, there is no clear panel evidence to support Havok's assertion that it was just about guilt. It comes down to interpretation because the panel's at the beginning and end of HCT are purposefully vague. It could have been that, or it could have been more. I think it's just more palatable for people to accept it was something really small. As Havok points out Jean was in a godlike state. The morality of mortals was behind her. There was no reason for her to hold back, and every reasons for her to use the opportunity to give Scott a chance at happiness.

Think they will ever address HCT appropriately or is that too much to hope for?

[Havok83]

Think they will ever address HCT appropriately or is that too much to hope for?

No. I dont see how it would come up. HCT was an alternate future that has since been eradicated. Nobody knows what happened behind the scenes with Jean as WPotC, including herself. The only way it could conceivably be addressed is if the Phoenix Force made another appearance and revealed this to them but I dont see that happening

[phoenixzero23]

Regardless of what happens, some much of the stuff on Morrison's run will finally have closure this year. Leaving some of that behind can only be good for this relationship even if it takes more years to get back at it.

[Ulfhammer]

Think they will ever address HCT appropriately or is that too much to hope for?

Marvel has nothing to gain by addressing it, and in fact quite a lot to lose. If it came out somehow, via the PF say, all it would do is humiliate Scott and infuriate and denigrate Emma. It's even worse than Emma's worse fears about the relationship coming true. Her worst fear was that Scott could never love her the way he loved Jean, but to have that "love story" of hers be a consequence not of a choice Scott made but because of a choice Jean made. I think that would be a very negative development. All the while Jean can't explain or provide context because she doesn't know the whys and hows. It hurts everyone in the scenario. I suppose if Marvel was desperate to create some drama, maybe this comes out, but it just seems like a no win scenario for everyone involved.

I think it's best to look at it as the contrivance it was to facilitate a rapid change of actors between Emma and Jean. I have no idea why Morrison decided that he needed to add this horrid level of complexity to the end of his run. He could have literally skipped HCT in its entirety and no one would have been the wiser going into Astonishing. Yes, maybe it would have felt a bit abrupt, but it would have avoided a lot of confusion down the line when us fans try to understand what happened later.

[TheCape]

I agree. This whole "she just removed Scott's guilt" angle is an attempt to minimize the impact. As you rightly point out, even if that's what it was, the impact was not small.

Regardless, there is no clear panel evidence to support Havok's assertion that it was just about guilt. It comes down to interpretation because the panel's at the beginning and end of HCT are purposefully vague. It could have been that, or it could have been more. I think it's just more palatable for people to accept it was something really small. As Havok points out Jean was in a godlike state. The morality of mortals was behind her. There was no reason for her to hold back, and every reasons for her to use the opportunity to give Scott a chance at happiness.

Personally speaking, i'm in the camp of "she took away his guilt only", not so much as an attemp to minimize the impact, because is still quite a violation of Scott's person, but based in what Morrison was going with his run, i think that he definetly developed feelings for Emma there.

[TheDeadSpace]

Marvel has nothing to gain by addressing it, and in fact quite a lot to lose. If it came out somehow, via the PF say, all it would do is humiliate Scott and infuriate and denigrate Emma. It's even worse than Emma's worse fears about the relationship coming true. Her worst fear was that Scott could never love her the way he loved Jean, but to have that "love story" of hers be a consequence not of a choice Scott made but because of a choice Jean made. I think that would be a very negative development. All the while Jean can't explain or provide context because she doesn't know the whys and hows. It hurts everyone in the scenario. I suppose if Marvel was desperate to create some drama, maybe this comes out, but it just seems like a no win scenario for everyone involved.

I think it's best to look at it as the contrivance it was to facilitate a rapid change of actors between Emma and Jean. I have no idea why Morrison decided that he needed to add this horrid level of complexity to the end of his run. He could have literally skipped HCT in its entirety and no one would have been the wiser going into Astonishing. Yes, maybe it would have felt a bit abrupt, but it would have avoided a lot of confusion down the line when us fans try to understand what happened later.

Good point. I can't think of any good that may come from such a situation.

Personally speaking, i'm in the camp of "she took away his guilt only", not so much as an attemp to minimize the impact, because is still quite a violation of Scott's person, but based in what Morrison was going with his run, i think that he definetly developed feelings for Emma there.

I'm not even sure which camp I fall into.

[PsychoEFrost]

Good point. I can't think of any good that may come from such a situation.



I'm not even sure which camp I fall into.

I'm in the camp of "resolve this shit". As long as Jean and Scott don't have an actual conversation on page about what happened, it's gonna continue to be a thorn in the side of the X-Men.

[TheDeadSpace]

I'm in the camp of "resolve this shit". As long as Jean and Scott don't have an actual conversation on page about what happened, it's gonna continue to be a thorn in the side of the X-Men.

Haha, good point. I think I might just join you there.

[lancer]

I don't see how Scott chose Emma, ​​everyone will have his opinion about it but guilt, remorse, our conscience and our morals are things that allow us to do things or not and are strongly attached to our personality, it's thanks to them we don't burn the car of the guy we hate or we don't cheat on our partner or we just don't kill another person. If Jean eliminate the guilt of Scott up to the point of making him don't worry to kiss his new lover in front of the grave of his recent death wife it is clear that it is something big not something as simple as simply to overcome the time of mourning quickly .
Even if Scott does not love Jean anymore he will continue to respect her, it is not in his character to commit such a great lack of respect and less to the one who supposedly was the person he loved the most. not from my point of view what Jean did was not something small was a movement that modified the personality of Scott to do something he didn't want, maybe she did it for the good of everyone, but that does not make that morally wrong.

Not in character? Was it in character for him to have an affair? Of course, we don't interpret the scene the same way. I absolutely blame him, and Emma, for that vomit inducing kiss at the cemetery. Then, to boot, they are doing again the next issue. In my mind, Jean removed from him the guilt, the despair that allowed Scott to move on with his life. His choices, his actions from that point forward are on him.

Another of course. You don't even blame him for the affair. To you, he has full blown PTSD , can no longer tell right from wrong, and is Emma Frost's victim. Like he was a barely functioning, walking basket case, barely holding onto his sanity like it was a life preserver.

I don't see his mental problems to that degree. He damn straight knew the difference between right and wrong. He called the affair off in 138. Emma puts the Dark Phoenix deal, boom there goes his willpower. He expressed misgivings in at least 1 other issue. ABSOLUTELY, he did not go to Emma looking for an affair. Still, he let himself be persuaded into letting it go there. Again, in my view, that is strictly on him.

Mind you, I didn't say he had been unaffected. He had been traumatized by the experience and was trying to deal with it in the aftermath. However, this guy is not a basket case, nothing close. He functioned, just fine, in the field for 40 issues. I didn't see him as shellshocked. That's Reed Richard after he came back from the dead in the 90s. He really couldn't function in the field. Only lasted a few issues, though. Subplot was dropped pretty quickly. I always suspected by the reboot with the separate Heroes Reborn universe.

Same debate, different day. Different people seeing this differently. As I keep saying, let someone ask Morrison. I know where I'd bet my money on what he'd say. It sure as hell isn't Jean put any feelings for Emma in his head.

Where we do agree is that I find what was done morally dicey. Even simply removing Scott's guilt and despair is in essence tampering with his free will. If he wants to be alone the rest of his life that was his choice. The one thing that cannot be argued is that, without Jean's interference, there is no Scemma. That is not open for interpretation because we saw that a timeline took place after Scott rejected Emma. Only thing that changed in the altered timeline was her telling Scott to live.

That is why I never condemned Scott for being with Emma right after Jean died. Now, as a reader looking in, I found it to be in horrendous taste, and Marvel couldn't pay me to read it. But blame Scott, no? I had enough to legitimately blame him for without doing it for something he didn't deserve.

I didn't like what Jean did with Frenzy either. However, she didn't make her a hero. She mind controlled her for that one mission to help get them into Genosha. She did not fundamentally change her as a person going forward. Least not to my knowledge. Not like I've followed Frenzy the last 15 plus years.

I think of these instances as exceptions, though. Again, not what I'm looking for from Jean. If good and moral equals sainthood than I guess I'm looking for sainthood. Thing is, I don't thing that it means that. Characters that people see as bastions of morality like Superman or Captain America.
Pick any year from say the 90s. Read all their comics from that year since they each had their own series. Well, Superman a bunch of titles. You'll see that they are not perfect people. They've got fears, doubts, insecurities, can be emotionally hurt. In my mind, this itself humanizes the character. But they are still really good and moral people. That's how I saw Scott. That was how I saw Jean.

Seems, as with many of my views, to be in the minority. People are looking for a lot more flawed than I am. Understand there were plenty of other characters I read expecting more flaws. I didn't read WOLVERINE every month expecting the same character I got in CAPTAIN AMERICA. I read DEADPOOL for 4 or 5 years. Sure as hell wasn't expecting pure heroism from that book.