Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[phoenixzero23]

It actually felt a lot more honest than the obligatory kiss at the end of Blue. Jean and Scott holding on to each other for dear life goes right to the heart of who they are as a couple.

It was beautiful!

Lord, reading all the times that Scott and Jean would talk about their issues together and try to work things out. So many different times of them consistently communicating.

Then coming to New X-Men where he doesn't want to talk to her and keeps telling her to read his mind or download the information while he's asleep. It's sad.

Yup, it sucked. They were perfect until suddenly they just werent.
It was such an abrupt change.

[lancer]

Yup, it sucked. They were perfect until suddenly they just werent.
It was such an abrupt change.

Sucked is the word And what made it 10 times more annoying was Morrison didn't just want to deconstruct them. He wanted to do it going backwards like they never worked post 1986. Which just flew in the face of SO many issues. Throw in the affair and I think sucked is a VERY apt word to use.

[Ulfhammer]

For the umpteinth time, when the author of that book tells me that is what happened then I'll believe. And I'd bet money he won't say that is what happened. For the same umpteinth time, she didn't make him do anything. She didn't put any feelings for Emma there that weren't already there. She freed him to act on them. Freed him from the guilt and despair that would keep him from acting on them.

The book's editor understood what was happening on panel. Arguing she didn't is frankly unbecoming. You're bets on what Morrison would or wouldn't say and your theories about who had what feelings when are completely unsubstantiated.

[GarDian]

So in essence your calling the letter fake news when it's right there in black and white from the editor of the book. Jean made Scott and Emma happen pure and simple. Jean took an honest mistake on Scott's part and turned it into a romance. It like falling into a con-man's scam and ending up the leader of a religious cult. That why I compare it to the movie Inception. Jean incepted the "live" command so deeply into his psyche that it guided all his actions from that point onwards. Put such a person up against Extinction and ofcourse Scott would do what he did.

I have this headcanon about Jean telling Scott to "live".

We know that she told him to live in order to avert an apocalyptic future. So its nit so far fetched to say that the future (the one we got) was also foreseen by Jean and by telling Scott to "live", she thought that this was their best possible future. Maybe it can be said that she only saw until her resurection but that would still mean that in a way, she chose a future where Rightclops existed.

This still kind of fits in with current Scott "its my fault" self doubting sadbag. Maybe Jean can cheer him up by telling him that when she told him to "live", this was the best future further reassuring Scott that he did the right things.

[Ulfhammer]

I have this headcanon about Jean telling Scott to "live".

We know that she told him to live in order to avert an apocalyptic future. So its nit so far fetched to say that the future (the one we got) was also foreseen by Jean and by telling Scott to "live", she thought that this was their best possible future. Maybe it can be said that she only saw until her resurection but that would still mean that in a way, she chose a future where Rightclops existed.

This still kind of fits in with current Scott "its my fault" self doubting sadbag. Maybe Jean can cheer him up by telling him that when she told him to "live", this was the best future further reassuring Scott that he did the right things.

Jean knowing about and disclosing HCT to Scott stands to effect him far more negatively than positively IMO. So while I agree that your interpretation makes sense, I don't want to see it acted upon.

For me HCT works best now as a plot device that fans are aware of, which puts certain actions and developments in context, without ever really being acknowledged. Once you acknowledge it, you let the genie out of the bottle and Scott's agency since HCT right along with it. I'd rather have everyone believe that everything Scott did was his choice, rather than acknowledge that so much of what he did was Jean's choice.

[lancer]

The book's editor understood what was happening on panel. Arguing she didn't is frankly unbecoming. You're bets on what Morrison would or wouldn't say and your theories about who had what feelings when are completely unsubstantiated.

We don't know the extent to what she understood exactly what Morrison intended. I don't think she was an editor until the last couple of issues. When she said it was Jean's plan for Scott and Emma that could be interpreted as she knew he'd choose her as soon as she gave him the push to move on with his life. You're claiming that Jean somehow made Scott choose to be with Emma isn't completely substantiated by Moore's comments either.

It defeats everything Morrison is trying to so with Scott/Emma as a couple. He flat out said they are the next great X couple. Yet his intent was that Jean made Scott want Emma? This was the author's intent? No, she freed him to move on with his life. From there, the choices are his. Now, I think she had a very strong suspicion that he had feelings for her and her for him.

We simply don't see it the same way. A whole lot we don't see the same way. ****, you think ENDSONG is a good JOTT story. LOL, you took Jean putting a hole through a wall once in a 50 year publishing history and extrapolated that into her potentially being okay with sending out kill squads, No, we most definitely do not see things the same way.

Frankly, I don't much care whether you find my opinions unbecoming or not.

[Wiccan]

I don't think Jean has any memories of HCT anyway. On the Astonishing Annual by Rosenberg she says she doesn't remember anything after dying...

[Ulfhammer]

We don't know the extent to what she understood exactly what Morrison intended. I don't think she was an editor until the last couple of issues. When she said it was Jean's plan for Scott and Emma that could be interpreted as she knew he'd choose her as soon as she gave him the push to move on with his life. You're claiming that Jean somehow made Scott choose to be with Emma isn't completely substantiated by Moore's comments either.

It defeats everything Morrison is trying to so with Scott/Emma as a couple. He flat out said they are the next great X couple. Yet his intent was that Jean made Scott want Emma? This was the author's intent? No, she freed him to move on with his life. From there, the choices are his. Now, I think she had a very strong suspicion that he had feelings for her and her for him.

We simply don't see it the same way. A whole lot we don't see the same way. ****, you think ENDSONG is a good JOTT story. LOL, you took Jean putting a hole through a wall once in a 50 year publishing history and extrapolated that into her potentially being okay with sending out kill squads, No, we most definitely do not see things the same way.

Frankly, I don't much care whether you find my opinions unbecoming or not.

You're argument is predicated on the book editor being clueless about what she was editing and Morrison thinking he could sell everyone on Scott falling for Emma because of a few cosplay sessions. Then you go on to completely misrepresent what I said about Endsong, and about Jean's capacity for violence. Clearly our differences of opinion are fundamental in nature and additional attempts to find common ground are going to make no difference.

[Ulfhammer]

I don't think Jean has any memories of HCT anyway. On the Astonishing Annual by Rosenberg she says she doesn't remember anything after dying...

Makes sense. Just another reason why HCT will stay buried. As time passes, HCT becomes less and less relevant anyway. It was mostly about putting Scott and Emma together, and it seems that's unlikely to be resurrected. The power of HCT is context for how that ship got off the ground in Astonishing. It just wouldn't have the same impact now, even if it did see the light of day for some reason.

[lancer]

You're argument is predicated on the book editor being clueless about what she was editing and Morrison thinking he could sell everyone on Scott falling for Emma because of a few cosplay sessions. Then you go on to completely misrepresent what I said about Endsong, and about Jean's capacity for violence. Clearly our differences of opinion are fundamental in nature and additional attempts to find common ground are going to make no difference.

Assistant editor is what she was. Mike Marts was the editor. You think she had any direct contact with Grant Morrison? I'm taking his comments about Scemma into consideration when drawing my conclusions. Absolutely. It gives context to what his intentions might be. Nowhere have I claimed that Morrison did a good job selling the couple of Scott and Emma. Anymore than I think he did a plausible job breaking up Jott because it's filled with revisionist nonsense.

That said, I don't have to prove it. I said nothing about the execution of the end of HCT. I spoke about the author's intent. You choose to believe an assistant editor's possible explanation while I don't believe Jean made Scott choose Emma based on , not only what was in the books, but the author's own comments about the character.

Where did I misrepresent you on blowing the wall out? You took that scene, and 2 others, and used it as an argument that it wouldn't be out of character to think that Jean would have done the same things as Scott ie send out kill squads.

I will concede that I probably exaggerated what you said about ENDSONG. You may not have called it a great Jott story, but you certainly said that it showed that they were still in love. And I absolutely don't think it shows that on Scott's end. You took a nice moment between them at the end, turned that into him still loving her despite all the stuff he said earlier in the series. I wouldn't call it complete misrepresentation. Again, exaggeration I'll give you.

Yes, our differences are indeed fundamental.

[spirit2011]

I don't think Jean has any memories of HCT anyway. On the Astonishing Annual by Rosenberg she says she doesn't remember anything after dying...

She never lived it, so she can't remember.

For me HCT is a good get out of jail free card, "so u mad Scott had a relationship with Emma? LOL here is Jean saying for him to accept Emma proposal"
Morrison designed the whole thing to be Scott has to accept Emma or bye bye Earth as we know it

i don't think they gonna use it because it invalidates a relationship they pushed very hard

[TheDeadSpace]

She never lived it, so she can't remember.

For me HCT is a good get out of jail free card, "so u mad Scott had a relationship with Emma? LOL here is Jean saying for him to accept Emma proposal"
Morrison designed the whole thing to be Scott has to accept Emma or bye bye Earth as we know it

i don't think they gonna use it because it invalidates a relationship they pushed very hard

Considering how contrived everything was during that time, it's no surprise that Morrison tacked on HCT as well, probably by the request from others to fix what damage he did to Scott and his relationship to Jean. The only person out of the whole mess that looked good was Logan. That's a bad sign in my opinion.

Also, considering recent developments, its hard to tell what will be kept to push the desired narrative forward.

[MarvelMaster616]

Found this little gem on FaceBook.

Old Gesture.jpg

[Peanutsinspace]

Found this little gem on FaceBook.

Old Gesture.jpg

Reminds me of Jean's ending in the old X-Men Mutant Academy 2 game.

[Peanutsinspace]

Here's Scott's ending too