Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[lancer]

You're entitled to your opinion. Just as we are to ours.



I disagree. Jean progressing and being happily paired with Scott aren't mutually exclusive things. Psychological development doesn't end with marriage. Quite the opposite.

I often find this kind of argument to be a passive-aggressive way of expressing 1) "Jott fatigue" and 2) a desire to see Jean portrayed as a young, single early-20s woman shopping around and having fun.

I'm increasingly convinced Marvel just needs to let Kelly Thompson or Seanan McGuire do an "Untold Tales of Spider-Man"/"X-Men First Class"-type prequel series set during the early Claremont era when Jean and Scott were on-and-off, and Jean was living in Manhattan with Misty Knight. They can show Jean exploring her sexuality, coming into her own as an adult, and all that stuff. Hell, Claremont himself would probably come back to do it.



Which is a bizarre and baseless reading of their relationship. Jean was almost always in the driver's seat. After her resurrection in 1986, they didn't get back together until she wanted to. They didn't get married until she wanted to--when Scott proposed to her, she rejected him. They finally got engaged when she proposed to him. Even Morrison's stated intent for the cause of their break-up was that Jean had frozen Scott out and "stopped being his wife." Jean is the dominant partner in the relationship.

Honestly, I think all this "Jean-as-appendage" stuff is some kind of meta-meme derived from fandom politics and a mis-remembered caricature of her portrayal in the 90s cartoon. The published canon simply doesn't bear it out.

RE: shipping, your response suggests to me you enjoy Scott and Jean as a storyline--an entertaining vehicle of drama and conflict--moreso than as a relationship you're emotionally invested in and want to see succeed. Which is a valid position; ultimately, it's all a matter of taste. (And, FWIW, that puts you more in sync with Marvel editorial's views than my views are.)

Speaking for myself, I "ship" Scott and Jean because, first, their historical relationship emotionally resonated with me and, second, I viewed it not as a cyclical plot device to generate drama and conflict but as a linear narrative building toward a particular future and the next generation of the mythos. Scott and Jean would eventually succeed Xavier, have children that were truly theirs--no more cross-time and clone hoo-ha, and grow into "elder statesmen" roles mentoring the new X-Men of their kids' generation similar to the JSA/Infinity, Inc. model. Consequently, when Morrison broke them up, I felt cheated. (And that's not even getting into the adultery element.)

Now, the better part of two decades later, I'm much wiser about "illusion of change", the conventions of commercial superhero comics, the sliding timeline shenanigans of quietly de-aging characters every decade or so, and never, ever letting them age or mature past a certain point. It's unlikely in the extreme that I'm ever go to see the kinds of Scott and Jean stories I want so I don't expect it. I don't like it, but I got it. And, I voted with my money a long time ago--I stopped buying the books regularly.

Nevertheless, comments that **** on Jott and its place in the mythos, that diminish it, mock it, misread it, or dismiss it, still really, really rub me wrong. The emotional investment is still there. I suppose it's a credit to Claremont's writing of the couple (and Simonson's, Lobdell's, and Nicieza's)--they made me care. That's where the shipping comes from. I expect the other frequent posters in this thread would tell you something similar.

Goes back to the 90s with some people. I still remember the phrase whiny, clingy attachment to Scott. They were the Jean/Scott entity, joined a the hip And, as always, I could cite numerous issues that disprove this. Said it a bunch of time before, I'll say it again. I called them internet myths. If some people say it enough it somehow becomes true whether the books actually show it or not.

Like later in the 90s, when they didn't have much to do, the relationship is "holding Jean back". As opposed to they just weren't in the spotlight very much because there were a lot of characters and they were not all gong to have a lot of story all the time. There were times that Storm was that way. She wasn't in a relationship. The writers just chose not to do much with her as opposed to a relationship holding her back.

IMO, If Jean was going to be married to Scott, and vice versa, they should only be so independent from each other. You shouldn't get a year's worth of stories where we hardly see them together. If either of them has a somewhat independent arc that involves something that is somewhat traumatic then we should say how what they are going through affects the partner. That's what marriage is.
Again, only my opinion, if you don't want those constraints then why are they married?

[Wiccan]

Well. I guess I'm a bit in the middle here... I do want Jott to get together again, and have a long-lasting relationship again, but I want it to take a while. I want for them(yes mostly Jean) to grow individually more and then find their way back to each other with time.

I'm excited to see them meet again for the first time. To see them together on the X-Men again. To get used to how they changed from the last time they were together. Possibly talk and interact with Wi-fi, Rachel and Hope(Jean's first and latest interaction with her went pretty different to how things went between her and Scott on the current Uncanny...), Xavier(who messed with the O5's mind... Minus Scott).

So, basically, I'm hoping for significant Jott moments and stories, and I totally consider myself a shipper, but I don't exactly want for them to just get back together and live as a married couple again.

[AHRNIHAL]

Well. I guess I'm a bit in the middle here... I do want Jott to get together again, and have a long-lasting relationship again, but I want it to take a while. I want for them(yes mostly Jean) to grow individually more and then find their way back to each other with time.

I'm excited to see them meet again for the first time. To see them together on the X-Men again. To get used to how they changed from the last time they were together. Possibly talk and interact with Wi-fi, Rachel and Hope(Jean's first and latest interaction with her went pretty different to how things went between her and Scott on the current Uncanny...), Xavier(who messed with the O5's mind... Minus Scott).

So, basically, I'm hoping for significant Jott moments and stories, and I totally consider myself a shipper, but I don't exactly want for them to just get back together and live as a married couple again.

Xavier messed with Scott's mind enough already.

[Del torro]

I agree with Fubar007. That being said. Before Morrison deconstructed the relationship there were already holes. In the UXM issue where Scott went camping with Corsair he revealed they didn’t even talk about having kids because Scott was concerned he would be a shitty Dad.

It's this kind of weird since they already spent 12 years raising a kid together. And I the twelve they talk about having kids (plus Jeans conversation with Rachel before the wedding implies that they had probably discussed having kids)

[Retcon]

The conversation im referring too happened after Scott returned from his possession by Apocalypse. Right before NXM.

[TheCape]

In a way, the Scott that we knew from years died in "The Twelve" and he was never the same characther after that, although Lodbell and Morrison played that differently.

[Retcon]

That was the end of Boy Scout Scott.

[lancer]

And when boy scout Scott went, I went. Funny how I went on that whole speech about married couples being written only so independent from each other. Then I read the news section and the Invisible Woman has her own mini series coming out. Set in the past, with a Shield history I had no knowledge of, but still apparently pretty independent of Reed. Didn't give a ton of details about when it's set vis a vis her relationship with Reed. Still, it seems to be just her story. Maybe they could do the same with Jean.

[Retcon]

Jeen had alot of Independent focus. She was even the 05 leader with tyke playing the supporting role.

[AHRNIHAL]

jeen had alot of independent focus. She was even the 05 leader with tyke playing no role at all.

exactly!!!

[Retcon]

I see what you did there.heres a picture that summarizes tyke an jeenDEEFFD6A-B659-4C46-B9E8-F033005D270F.jpg

[xiyon]

Tyke and Jeen are the worst version of the iconic X-Men romance. The less discussed about those BMB original characters, the better.

[SpiderClops]

Tyke and Jeen are the worst version of the iconic X-Men romance. The less discussed about those BMB original characters, the better.

I suppose movies and Wolverine and the X-Men cartoon is excluded in that statement.

[xiyon]

I suppose movies and Wolverine and the X-Men cartoon is excluded in that statement.

I stand corrected. I shall amend to "worst version in comics" then xD

[Glio]

Ultimate Scott and Ultimate Jean also had a very boring dynamic, I would say worse than Tyke and Jeen.