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  1. #1021
    Out Fighting for Peace! AJpyro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    This is from What If? vol. 2 #60 by Kurt Busiek and Ron Randall. It was released a month after Scott and Jean's wedding in 1994. The theme of the issue was how badly things turned out in other timelines where Scott and Jean didn't get together the way they did in 616. This particular story, for example, ends with Dark Phoenix destroying the universe because, unlike Scott in 616, Logan couldn't talk her down.

    Any Jott haters or Jogan shippers using this image to promote their point of view are really missing the point of the story it's from.



    That was Claremont playing out a variation of what he'd intended for Scott, Jean, and Logan had he never left the franchise in 1991. In his opinion, Scott had to lose Jean to Logan as poetic justice for walking out on Madelyne.

    Also, Scott was never with Lorna in X-Men Forever. She was with Havok, and it's implied that they're married.



    You might be thinking of X-Men Noir. I've never read those stories so I can't say for sure.



    That was in the Earth X timeline.



    What If? vol. 2 #32 and #33 by George Caragonne and Rod Ramos. These came out in late 1991 and were a sequel to Phoenix: The Untold Story which showed Claremont's original ending to the Dark Phoenix Saga.
    All that sounds really dumb.
    Le Suck it, Dolphin!

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    SCOTT SUMMERS AND EMMA FROST DESERVED BETTER.

  2. #1022
    Mighty Member JeisonWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    This is from What If? vol. 2 #60 by Kurt Busiek and Ron Randall. It was released a month after Scott and Jean's wedding in 1994. The theme of the issue was how badly things turned out in other timelines where Scott and Jean didn't get together the way they did in 616. This particular story, for example, ends with Dark Phoenix destroying the universe because, unlike Scott in 616, Logan couldn't talk her down.

    Any Jott haters or Jogan shippers using this image to promote their point of view are really missing the point of the story it's from.
    I know, many people judge or talk about things without really knowing the context or history.

    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    Also, Scott was never with Lorna in X-Men Forever. She was with Havok, and it's implied that they're married.
    oh I didn't say that Scott had something with Lorna, sorry if I didn't explain well, what I wanted to say is that in the end after the death of Alex I think Scott and Lorna come a little bit close, nothing romantic but I think if they had followed from there finding the consolation after having lost someone dear could end up having something like in Ultimate, anyway I just say that I would have preferred to end with Lorna instead of Jean in this story, she really didn't deserve it I really refuse to believe that this Jean is the same as X-factor forever where she and Scott end well and begin to raise Cable, instead here she even denies Cable as her son.

  3. #1023
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeisonWolf View Post
    Scemma had Emma fooling Scott with Namor, Scott attacking Emma to get her power
    None of it would have happened without the Phoenix, so neither can really be held responsible for that. They stayed apart more because Bendis wanted than anything that actually happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeisonWolf View Post
    and finally Scott who even if he continued to work with Emma he never forgave her, maybe she still loved him but as for Scott I'm not so sure.
    Emma quite clearly was in love with him (everything in IvX,DoX, etc, shows that quite clearly); Scott lashed out at her, but it's not completely clear he's over her, more than they have unsolved issues.

  4. #1024
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    Why oh why can’t we just focus on Jott moments in this thread? It always strays away from the Title. JOTT. I don’t care about Wolverine,Emma or Shaft i mean Bishop.

  5. #1025
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retcon View Post
    Why oh why can’t we just focus on Jott moments in this thread? It always strays away from the Title. JOTT. I don’t care about Wolverine,Emma or Shaft i mean Bishop.
    I agree with you. This thread should focus on good stuff.

    i honestly don't care about other characters or relationships they have.

  6. #1026
    Mighty Member JeisonWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    None of it would have happened without the Phoenix, so neither can really be held responsible for that. They stayed apart more because Bendis wanted than anything that actually happened.



    Emma quite clearly was in love with him (everything in IvX,DoX, etc, shows that quite clearly); Scott lashed out at her, but it's not completely clear he's over her, more than they have unsolved issues.
    As I say this is not too far from Jott, we could say that the whole Emma thing as well as the kiss with Wolverine happened because of Apocalyse and that their break was due to Morrison ... it's the same, a powerful entity and a writer who doesn't want them together. As I mentioned the problems of Scott and Jean are not so serious compared to Scemma, the only difference is that after Scott and Emma were alive and we saw and how they lived it, I'm sure if Jean had not died, she and Scott It wouldn't have taken long for them to be together again, especially because despite everything when Jean died they had not really broken which is different from Scemma.

    I don't doubt Emma's love for Scott as well as after Morrison I doesn't doubt Jean's love for Scott, Scott has always been harder to read but in the end it was clear that he still loved Jean and as for Emma he still like her. he wants her is no doubt, but I think it is also evident that the love he has for her is less than he has for Jean.

  7. #1027
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeisonWolf View Post
    As I say this is not too far from Jott, we could say that the whole Emma thing as well as the kiss with Wolverine happened because of Apocalyse and that their break was due to Morrison ... it's the same, a powerful entity and a writer who doesn't want them together. As I mentioned the problems of Scott and Jean are not so serious compared to Scemma, the only difference is that after Scott and Emma were alive and we saw and how they lived it, I'm sure if Jean had not died, she and Scott It wouldn't have taken long for them to be together again, especially because despite everything when Jean died they had not really broken which is different from Scemma.

    I don't doubt Emma's love for Scott as well as after Morrison I doesn't doubt Jean's love for Scott, Scott has always been harder to read but in the end it was clear that he still loved Jean and as for Emma he still like her. he wants her is no doubt, but I think it is also evident that the love he has for her is less than he has for Jean.
    Difference is that Scott was, while traumatized, in control of his actions during NXM, as well as Jean, which was not really the case of Emma and Scott in AvX. Although in both cases there's room for the relationship to return, although I just think it would be a more interesting story if Scott & Jean didn't.

  8. #1028
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    I agree with you. This thread should focus on good stuff.

    i honestly don't care about other characters or relationships they have.
    Good point. Anyone have anything positive we could talk about or explore?
    "This is starting to sound like a bad comic book plot"
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  9. #1029
    Extraordinary Member Glio's Avatar
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    You know, I think after being separated so long, Scott and Jean can get stronger than ever. They have learned to live without the other and that has taught them a lot. Scott and Jean are no longer the couple we loved but now they can be better.

    Jean has learned what it is to have the responsibility on her shoulders that means being a leader, Scott has learned the heavy burden of the Phoenix.

    (Scott has also learned a few things from Emma, ejem)

    After a time apart letting them explore their feelings, I think they can be a better couple than they ever were.

  10. #1030
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    I agree they are different ppl. They can see things from each other’s perspective. I think they are more prepared to move forward and communicate better. Even though i think their lack of communication was just contrived in NXM. They have always been able to talk to each other,except when Scott was lying in early X-Factor.

  11. #1031
    Mighty Member Peanutsinspace's Avatar
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    The man responsible for the dreaded triangle has been revealed!

    While reading Eric Lewald's book, Previously on X-Men, he interviews several people that helped make the tv show the phenomenon that it was. One of those people was writer Bob Skir. In his interview he says:

    There was one character trait that I added to the bible that I do not believe had its origin in the comics: Wolverine's feelings for Jean Grey. In my spec screenplay, I wrote a scene where Wolverine made a pass at Jean as a way of provoking Scott. Then it occurred to me that it might be fun to have an actual love triangle between them (Chris Claremont had hinted at this, but neither he nor anybody else ever did anything with it). This suggestion led to Wolverine expressing his feelings for her in "Captive Hearts" (ep5), which led to the love triangle being a central aspect of their relationship in the future comics and movies.

  12. #1032
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Nah I think Wolverine having feelings for Jean, which has been a thing since X-Men 101 or so, is kind of already enough to set up a bit of a triangle. Saying Claremont "had hinted at it but not done anything about it" sounds like a stretch to me, especially with how it was expanded on the Classic X-Men stories and a bunch of other stuff that happened before the cartoon.

  13. #1033
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    Yeah, this did not start with TAS. I'm surprised by what that writer said. I had always assumed they got it from the comics after Jean got back. Before that it was all one sided on panel. It means nothing unless there is some reciprocation of feelings. Warren had a thing for Jean. That doesn't make it a real triangle. Post 1986, there is something there for Logan. Myself, nothing I ever saw as a threat to Scott and Jean, but there was at least something.

    I just assumed that was what TAS played off of. I have always felt that if they were going to insist on touching upon the triangle that the series did it pretty well. Jogan is touched on, that's pretty much it. Seriously, what would the screen time breakdown be for the 2 halves? 5 time as much Jott? Probably more This is not the movies. TAS did it right. That show made a sincere attempt to make you care about Jott. Hey, to each his own. I'm not saying everyone necessarily bought them, but the attempt was made. Far more than the movies did.

  14. #1034
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeisonWolf View Post
    This first is one of the images most used by those who either want Jogan or those who want to say that Jean was constantly unfaithful. I mean, they usually use a lot that image when Scott discovers Jean cheating on him with Logan.

    Also they usually use a lot the cover of New X-men 1.
    stories where Jean cheats on Scott that I remember? X-men Forever (honestly the worst for my taste, Jean treated Scott as trash just for the end of it all to come back to him ... I really would rather have him stay with Lorna in this story.) Is that story where the X -men are gangsters or something, once again Jean cheated on Scott with Logan. Also that story where Jean leaves Scott for Logan and then she's always arguing with Logan and his life ends up being a **** (it's said that it was really Maddy but I'm not sure) even if it's not really cheating or at least many here they don't consider it as such, there is a What if Phoenix where Phoenix survives, she marries Scott and they have Rachel, then she discovers that Jean (the real Jean) is alive and Phoenix ends up killing her, that way she keeps her family even though she didn't it intentionally, despite this and although this story revolves around Jean-Phoenix/Scott in the second issue Wolverine approaches Jean-Phoenix and they end up kissing, personally this bothers me, as I said the story turns around Jean-Phoenix and Scott, saying how much she loves him but the first time she's kissing Wolverine again, it's as if they tell us that this can't be avoided ... anyway, Phoenix erases Wolverine's memory but Scott and Xavie saw everything, so Phoenix decides to flee, in the end she reconciles with Scott but she leave anyway because the power and the dangerous that she had become.
    I know there are more stories where Jean cheats Scott or chooses Wolverine over Scott. But as it is obvious I am not very interested in looking for them so I don't know what they are, I know that too and thanks to some writers many have the idea that Jean prefers Logan and this is used a lot by haters for example What if AvX, it has no logic at all this story but in the end Jean saves Logan and they start a life together since the beginning of time ... pff lol
    Now that I see that panel it brings it back. I recall some of the dialogue now. It does play as cheating because Scott is surprised. I believe she says something like, I can be myself with LOgan.
    I absolutely remember what Fubar said. Logan was not a calming influence and Dark Phoenix bloomed.

    I remember the issue. That story. Another where Jean chose Warren early and it looks like Scott winds up joining the Brotherhood. The third story was Jott married early, in the Silver Age, and left the team. They wound up getting killed without them.

    I think it's lame to use alternate realities as arguments against Jott. We are discussing 616. In the cartoons and movies I think it's fair to use what is shown there. Someone who likes Jogan from the movies doesn't need to justify it with comics. It's the movie universe. They want to argue they belong together there, I can see how they might feel that way.

    I never read EARTH X, I read about it. Jim Krueger was the writer, I believe. I'll never forget this. He had his own forum, as several creators did, on the old X Fan site. Hr said there that he put Jean and Logan together because it seemed to him, after she came back in 1986, that she'd rather be with Logan than Scott. I'm thinking, what comics was this guy reading? He said this earlier in the series. Before the Jean is really Maddie reveal.

  15. #1035
    Extraordinary Member Glio's Avatar
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    I do not understand how someone would use the What if? of Logan and Jean together as something positive when it literally ends with the universe exploding because of that.

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