Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[phoenixzero23]

You got that right about other writers. Starting with Whedon. White used those words? I thought he was a Jott fan. I thought I'd read that posted here. Am I remembering wrong? I seem to remember that he liked Morrison. But to use those words about the affair specifically?

Is he a Scemma and Jott? Well, that has always baffled me. I get being one or the other, but I don't get both. Scemma was built on tearing down Jott. I liked both Peter/Gwen and Peter/MJ. However, one wasn't built up by taking a dump on the other.

Again, it has always puzzled me. As always tastes differ. Whatever floats your boat. Even without the affair, I could have never gotten behind Scemma. It would still be built on Jott not working anymore. My distaste for it would have been dialed down several notches. But a fan? No.

Anyway, I would think it would be concerning for Jott fans to have this guy editing the X books.

His top x-men couples are rogue/gambit, jean/scott and brian/meggan. the thing is that he is also a huge fan of drama and problems.

[lancer]

Had Lobdell or Seagle gotten their way, I suspect Scott and Jean would've "graduated" to roles in the X-franchise analogous to the roles Reed and Sue fill in Fantastic Four--the grown-ups, the stabilizers, the authority figures, the institution builders. Scott and Jean would've gradually taken over for Xavier. Scott would train the next generation of X-Men; Jean would play a leading role in the school and the mutant rights movement. All while raising little Rachel and any subsequent kids.

There's a treasure trove of stories to be told there. Even though it's been nearly two decades since Morrison split them up, it still pisses me off that we never got those stories. And that we never will.

You ask me, that's how they were written most of the 90s; This story gives them a baby. In general, though, they were presented as among the more adult and mature team members. There was a 90s WIZARD Interview where Nicieza described them as unifiers. He also included Storm and Beast in that. For him, that was as opposed to the Gambits, Cables and Bishops who he called instigators.

Never read that about Lobdell's plans. Can't say as I'm too surprised by Harras' reaction. They had just sent Scott's child to the future, to get him out of the books, several years earlier. I certainly would have been interested in reading the story. Just not surprised by Harras' rejection of it.

[lancer]

His top x-men couples are rogue/gambit, jean/scott and brian/meggan. the thing is that he is also a huge fan of drama and problems.

Seems like HUGE fan if he liked what Morrison did. Morrison isn't just putting obstacles in their way. Someone like Simonson did that. He's flat out stating they didn't work anymore. I can only tell you how this Jott fan felt Incongruent to me. In my view, Morrison run is to a Jott fan equals what oil is to water.

[Retcon]

Throughout the late 80s and 90s they were written as a mature couple that could get past anything. Scott got over whatever it is he felt for Betsy/Kwannon and Jean got over Logan. Then Morrison comes along and they turn into unsure teenagers mentally.

[lancer]

Jean didn't have to get over Logan. He was not one of the X FACTOR obstacles. What Jean felt for LOgan was never presented as a real threat to Jott. Not, IMO. With the possible exception of CLASSIC X MEN 1. That was a story set in the last when Jean and Logan first met. Even there, it's a very strong attraction. She's not in love with the guy, she just met him.. That was Claremont retconning in an attraction. Now, if he had gotten to handle the characters on a regular basis. As in their monthly handler, then I think we would have had a real threat. Something to really get over, if she could get over it.

Scott and Betsy. Hard to tell what he ver really felt for her. X MEN 20 implies she may have been screwing with his head. One of the trading cards that came with the wedding issue flat out stated it. W w

[Decoy]

Had Lobdell or Seagle gotten their way, I suspect Scott and Jean would've "graduated" to roles in the X-franchise analogous to the roles Reed and Sue fill in Fantastic Four--the grown-ups, the stabilizers, the authority figures, the institution builders. Scott and Jean would've gradually taken over for Xavier. Scott would train the next generation of X-Men; Jean would play a leading role in the school and the mutant rights movement. All while raising little Rachel and any subsequent kids.

There's a treasure trove of stories to be told there. Even though it's been nearly two decades since Morrison split them up, it still pisses me off that we never got those stories. And that we never will.

We could still.....if Wanda and Vision, Peter and MJ could get back together (Vision and Wanda where on the outs first when Vision lost his emotions and got the all white look....then when Wanda kinda lost her mind and used Vision in the attack Vision tried to shut her out......and if Peter and MJ’s marriage got Mephistoed away, Peter dating Carlie, then have Doc Ock In his head while MJ dated normal humans and Tony Stark for a bit).......and if Gambit and Rogue got married (after Kitty got cold feet) then maybe Scott and Jean could get another shot.....it’s been years since they last had a couple moment (say after Scott was separated from Apocalypse......yes Morrison f#+##ed things up that badly)......

Perhaps the best solution would be to just not really mention the last 15 Years (or 2? 3? 4? Where does it go on Marvel’s Sliding Time Scale?), Start the relationship back up (have a few moments in HOX and POX, save the meaty stuff for the monthlies, for those we’ll have to see what SDCC brings), before that even have Emma admit that Kitty was right all those years ago, that Emma hadn’t really changed, or have Emma be someone’s pawn.......that’s one way

Or have Timey Wimey (tm The Tenth Doctor) stuff go down in X-Force/ AOX Omega, Doomsday Clock #10 (waitaminute), Mrs and Mrs X that kinda alters certain things (yet oddly the rest of Marvel is mostly unaffected........everything that’s happened for the last 15 Years happened without much difference)......it would explain Moria being around (as she died earlier than Jean) depends on how much Marvel wants to reset stuff so Hickman won’t be bogged down......just saying.....

[Decoy]

Throughout the late 80s and 90s they were written as a mature couple that could get past anything. Scott got over whatever it is he felt for Betsy/Kwannon and Jean got over Logan. Then Morrison comes along and they turn into unsure teenagers mentally.

Exactly......I have slight hope for Hickman’s Run to get back to that time , as Scott and Jean are on the same squad of X-Men, but so far we haven’t gotten any preview art of them having a moment, but still.....here’s hoping (surprised that the old Hal Emerald Advancement Team never gave the Scott and Jean Fans a pointer in getting organized......yes I brought up the legions of Hal Jordan fans who bombarded DC with request to restore Hal to being Green Lantern.......maybe we need to do that.....)

[Miles To Go]

We could still.....if Wanda and Vision, Peter and MJ could get back together (Vision and Wanda where on the outs first when Vision lost his emotions and got the all white look....then when Wanda kinda lost her mind and used Vision in the attack Vision tried to shut her out......and if Peter and MJ’s marriage got Mephistoed away, Peter dating Carlie, then have Doc Ock In his head while MJ dated normal humans and Tony Stark for a bit)

MJ never dated Tony, she worked for him. Stark's influence over Peter was one of the contributing factors to Peter unmasking publicly and Aunt May getting shot, she would never go out with him.

[Decoy]

MJ never dated Tony, she worked for him. Stark's influence over Peter was one of the contributing factors to Peter unmasking publicly and Aunt May getting shot, she would never go out with him.

Oops.....sorry, was out of the Stark loop a bit.......she was dating a fire fighter for a bit while Peter was dealing with the Doc Ock thing.....

[Decoy]

I’m all for a Mini Series set Between the end of Uncanny 22/ AoX Omega and HOX which would have Scott and Jean confront the various issues that plagued them for the last 15 Years......have them deal with these problems while facing a common threat they have to work together to defeat (like say Sauron, Vulcan, D’Bari Hit Squads, Sh’ar Death Commandoes, Mesmero, a Wyngarde, Professor Power, Mojo, Stryfe, Dark Beast).......it worked for Gambit and Rogue......anyway, have them work together like they used to while rediscovering what worked (everything the fans loved about them) and owning what failed (lack of communication) and coming out stronger (much like the 90’s) especially if there was someone or something pulling the stings behind the scenes, it would maybe redeem Scott a bit if he was a unwitting pawn......same with Jean and a lesser extant Emma, if all 3 where played with without their knowledge

The seed of the problem wasn’t Morrison......it was whoever said ok to merging Cyclops and Apocalypse......

I know they’re in the same team in HOX, but until we get preview art of them together, then we need a mini to fix the problems.....

[Havok83]

Its too bad we didnt see Scott react at all to Jean's most recent "death"

[Omega Alpha]

Its too bad we didnt see Scott react at all to Jean's most recent "death"

Well, it's hard to have him react to Jean's "death" individually when not only she "died", but also Warren, Hank, Kurt, Rachel (he doesn't know about Ahab), Kitty, Ororo, Lorna, etc. All the X-men "dying" at once kinda makes any individual death seems almost minor.

[lancer]

The seed of the problem wasn’t Morrison......it was whoever said ok to merging Cyclops and Apocalypse......

....

Completely disagree with this. The merging in no way obliged Morrison to do what he did with the relationship. Hell, for the most part, he's not even saying it was the merging. He thought they hadn't worked since Jean came back in 1986.

Scott had been traumatized like lots of characters have been traumatized in the past. Many, many of them have come out the other end basically unchanged. Now, there is a process they have to go through to get to the other end. They were affected by the trauma, but not fundamentally changed.
Also, some characters have wound up changed. Not saying it couldn't happen, but there was no obligation.

I'm not even claiming that without Morrison that they would have stayed together straight through to today. Maybe another writer would have broken them up. I'm just saying that Morrison did it and should be critiqued for it. Some liked , others didn't, but in my mind it's on him not the creators behind THE TWELVE storyline im 1999.

[Gray Lensman]

Completely disagree with this. The merging in no way obliged Morrison to do what he did with the relationship. Hell, for the most part, he's not even saying it was the merging. He thought they hadn't worked since Jean came back in 1986.

Scott had been traumatized like lots of characters have been traumatized in the past. Many, many of them have come out the other end basically unchanged. Now, there is a process they have to go through to get to the other end. They were affected by the trauma, but not fundamentally changed.
Also, some characters have wound up changed. Not saying it couldn't happen, but there was no obligation.

I'm not even claiming that without Morrison that they would have stayed together straight through to today. Maybe another writer would have broken them up. I'm just saying that Morrison did it and should be critiqued for it. Some liked , others didn't, but in my mind it's on him not the creators behind THE TWELVE storyline im 1999.

I have to agree - Scott had worked out most of his Poccy possession issues before Morrison took over, except that Grant decided HE was going to be the one to tell that story and pushed the characterization reset button.

[Omega Alpha]

I have to agree - Scott had worked out most of his Poccy possession issues before Morrison took over, except that Grant decided HE was going to be the one to tell that story and pushed the characterization reset button.

Nah, Morrison was already set to take over and Lobdell issues were filler and set-up for Hickman, just like Rosenberg's are filler and set-up for Hickman.