Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[TheDeadSpace]

Bluntly, no.

But, such character-driven "quiet issues" are considered by contemporary Marvel to be "comics about comics"--undesirably dense, too referential to character history, too lacking in spectacle, and thus (in Marvel's view) off-putting to new readers.*

*This is, of course, bullshit. New readers--especially young readers--LOVE stepping into dense fictional worlds rich in history. See: the Harry Potter franchise, the Star Wars franchise, Game of Thrones, and on and on.

We'll probably get some sort of conflict that persists around whether Scott and Jean should even get back together. I feel as if that will be the blunt of the drama, especially with Wolverine and Emma around. Not to mention other X-men probably warning Jean as well as Jean herself. In the meantime, Scott and Jean's slow relationship building will most likely appear off panel.

[Omega Alpha]

The current X-office isn't terribly interested in old-school, Claremont/Lobdell-style "quiet issues" that deal with this sort of stuff. They want action, action, action.

With regard to "closure to Jott", Rosenberg has stated that's what the brief reunion scene between Scott and Jean in Phoenix Resurrection was for. And, I'm pretty sure that's all we're ever going to get. Marvel has no interest in doing a proper epilogue to Morrison's run or any kind of cathartic therapy session on their marital problems. It's been too long, and Marvel doesn't do those kinds of stories anymore.

All indications are that Hickman is doing a soft reboot of the franchise (just as Morrison did 18 years ago). As such, I expect Scott and Jean will be re-baselined and unofficially de-aged again along with the rest of the core cast. Their history will still technically be in continuity, but their new stories won't necessarily be a logical or consistent extrapolation of that history. Scott, Jean, and their relationship will be whatever Hickman has decided they will be.

Morrison's run wasn't really a soft reboot; it had clear ties to previous continuity (Cyclops being possessed by Apocalypse, Magneto running Genosha as a mutant nation, Emma's past as a member of the HFC, Jean's past as the Phoenix, the X-men's story with the Shi'ar), while building on this. On paper and without seeing the story yet, Hickman's seems more like a soft reboot approach than Morrison, though it's too soon to say, of course.

I think that a serious writer would be afraid by the sheer number of characters in the X-men world.
But action-action-action… with interchangeable characters who don't remember their past interactions… who wouldn't be quickly bored by that?
A Scott Summers without his issues, fears and courage and Jean without… (I don't know what to say with Jean Grey… her main problem was starting with being just "the girl of the team").
I suggest a poll… what do the readers want from comics?

Without issues and fears is one thing, but no character should be able so survive only if he's in love or dating another. Cyclops specially probably appeared in more issues and stories as a single man or dating other people than dating or marrying Jean, specially considering we have far more published comics these days than in the past.

[Decoy]

I think that a serious writer would be afraid by the sheer number of characters in the X-men world.
But action-action-action… with interchangeable characters who don't remember their past interactions… who wouldn't be quickly bored by that?
A Scott Summers without his issues, fears and courage and Jean without… (I don't know what to say with Jean Grey… her main problem was starting with being just "the girl of the team").
I suggest a poll… what do the readers want from comics?

Jean was, for a while, the only girl until first Polaris, then Storm, Kitty, Psylocke, etc......

Jean traditionally was the more compassionate one of the pair (while Scott broods and has the weight of the world on his shoulders, Jean reminds him to act like a normal person......)......

If only they kept the plot thread of Lobdell’s brief return, where Scott was actually less stoic (similar to how he was early in his relationship with Emma, ) after his separation from Apocalypse.......

Now, lure a halfway decent character writer to do either a Cyclops/ Jean Mini/ Monthly would help matters (especially Nicezia, Carey, etc (Lobdell is locked in DC, as is Johns, )who’d be perfect for tackling the Scott/ Jean/ Emma/ Wolverine quadrilateral.....and probably resolve the lingering Scott/ Jean issues before going forward.......

[FUBAR007]

Morrison's run wasn't really a soft reboot; it had clear ties to previous continuity (Cyclops being possessed by Apocalypse, Magneto running Genosha as a mutant nation, Emma's past as a member of the HFC, Jean's past as the Phoenix, the X-men's story with the Shi'ar), while building on this.

That's what distinguishes a soft reboot from a hard reboot. In a soft reboot, the continuity remains technically intact, but the aesthetics, characterization, and general approach are radically different. Morrison's portrayal of Scott and Jean was completely inconsistent with how they'd been portrayed for the preceding decade. He also informally de-aged them, writing them as mid-20-somethings rather than the mid-30-somethings they'd aged into by "Eve of Destruction". There isn't a trace of Louise Simonson's or Scott Lobdell's or Fabian Nicieza's or Steve Seagle's Scott and Jean in Morrison's portrayal of them. Morrison similarly regressed Magneto, completely ignoring Chris Claremont's decades of character development.

Similarly, Claremont himself did a soft reboot when he took over the franchise in the mid-1970s. For example, his Jean Grey was almost a 180-degree shift in personality from Stan Lee's and Roy Thomas's version of the character. He also heavily retconned Scott and Jean's origins. Yes, all the Silver Age stories and characterizations still technically "happened", but some were either ignored or no longer fit aesthetically with the newer versions. That's how soft reboots work.

Based on what's been released so far, I expect Hickman's run to function similarly.

[Omega Alpha]

Scott & Jean were never, and will never be in their mid-30's (same applies to Angel, Iceman and the Human Torch), because that would make Peter Parker in his mid-30's, and Marvel hates that idea, to the point Joe Q undid the marriage because he hated the idea of Peter looking old. And, of course, OMD is unquestionably the biggest example of a soft reboot at Marvel.

The aesthetics and general approach were changes Morrison was brought to do, and in part came from orders from above- the looks were a drastic change, but that was movie-mandated, and the bigger emphasis on the school was too, but it wasn't so absurd in either case. But many of the changes flowed from what happened before- he didn't ignore Magneto was the ruler of Genosha, just made him fail to protect it, wish played a part in his later characterization (not that his Magneto was good, mind you)

As for characterization of the marriage, it changed, but the point was that Scott was a very different person in part because of perhaps the biggest possible case of PTSD, by having to merge with the person he hates the most in the world, and with Jean also going through massive changes making her less human. This is, in fact, removing the elements of cosmic and super-villains, what happens in real life in many marriages- the people who were once happy go through stuff that makes them less adequate to one another, or one of them less able to relate to the other; add that to a spoiler with Emma, and, it's entirely understandable why the relationship would go the way they did. And it wasn't ignoring what happened before, it's not like Morrison had them hate each other, but just made them go through different circumstances.

[phoenixzero23]

Attachment 82781
We have veered off topic as usual.

I love this cover. It is so epic and iconic.
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[Omega Alpha]

I love this cover. It is so epic and iconic.
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703227.jpg

LMAO, that last one is involuntarily creepy.

[phoenixzero23]

This is the Jean, Scott, Jott appreciation thread. It exist to share cool things about them and like the characters/ship.

[Omega Alpha]

No, I said Jean should have remained dead after DPS; now, that ship has sailed and there's really no point in keeping any X-men character dead for long. And that last cover with Kid Cable in Cyclops' place is involuntarily creepy, for reasons that should be obvious- it would also be if you put Rachel in Jean's place with Scott.

That said, I don't think I bashed the relationship, just stated reasons why I think Morrison's take makes sense- that the marriage ended less because there was something fundamentally wrong with it and always had (which is the view some might have on Morrison's NXM take), but more because the circumstances made it very hard to continue.

[phoenixzero23]

Yeah, sorry omega. I sounded way different than what i intended.

I apologize. I kind of took your words in the wrong way.

[FUBAR007]

Scott & Jean were never, and will never be in their mid-30's (same applies to Angel, Iceman and the Human Torch), because that would make Peter Parker in his mid-30's, and Marvel hates that idea, to the point Joe Q undid the marriage because he hated the idea of Peter looking old.

We've been through this before. Beast turned 30 in Nicieza's run in the early 90s, Scott and Jean weren't that much younger than him, and the stories that occurred between then and "Eve of Destruction" didn't all take place within 1-2 years. Scott and Jean were around 32-35ish by the end of "Eve of Destruction". Once he became writer, Morrison quietly de-aged them back to their mid-20s.

No, Marvel will never acknowledge this. But, this sort of informal, silent de-aging is an essential part of their sliding timeline and the ever-increasing requirement for suspension of disbelief that goes with it.

And, of course, OMD is unquestionably the biggest example of a soft reboot at Marvel.

OMD was a hard reboot, just not a total one. It followed the post-Crisis model from DC: history has been changed, and most of the things that happened in previous stories kinda-sorta still happened, just not as they originally appeared in print. In Spider-Man's case, all those stories in which he and Mary Jane were married still happened, but just with the two of them living together since they never married. Similarly, Peter's identity was secret again so, while the stories that happened after his identity was made public still technically occurred, they occurred with his identity remaining secret.

The aesthetics and general approach were changes Morrison was brought to do, and in part came from orders from above- the looks were a drastic change, but that was movie-mandated, and the bigger emphasis on the school was too, but it wasn't so absurd in either case. But many of the changes flowed from what happened before- he didn't ignore Magneto was the ruler of Genosha, just made him fail to protect it, wish played a part in his later characterization (not that his Magneto was good, mind you)

As with his portrayal of Scott and Jean, there isn't a trace of the preceding writers' characterization of Magneto in Morrison's portrayal. Morrison wrote Magneto as a rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth caricature and deliberately so.

Such wild swings in behavior by long established characters, which require reader inference (i.e. headcanon) to make sense, are shitty writing.

As for characterization of the marriage, it changed, but the point was that Scott was a very different person in part because of perhaps the biggest possible case of PTSD, by having to merge with the person he hates the most in the world, and with Jean also going through massive changes making her less human. This is, in fact, removing the elements of cosmic and super-villains, what happens in real life in many marriages- the people who were once happy go through stuff that makes them less adequate to one another, or one of them less able to relate to the other; add that to a spoiler with Emma, and, it's entirely understandable why the relationship would go the way they did. And it wasn't ignoring what happened before, it's not like Morrison had them hate each other, but just made them go through different circumstances.

...all of which could've been dealt with in a couple of pages if Jean had simply re-established her telepathic rapport with Scott. Why didn't she? >shrug< Jean had the memories of Dark Phoenix committing genocide--she knew exactly the sort of trauma Scott was going through. Why didn't this come up? Why didn't Jean use that experience to reach out to Scott? >shrug< Why was Scott so foolish as to turn for help to a woman who had already tried to seduce him and was partially responsible for unleashing Dark Phoenix? >shrug< Why weren't Xavier and Jean, two of the closest people to Scott in his entire life and, oh yeah, telepaths, treating him for his PTSD? >shrug<

Morrison wanted Scott and Jean to have marital problems and break up. So, they did. That's it. That's all. Morrison didn't lay much groundwork; he just used Scott's possession as a superficial pretext. He didn't earn it. He asserted it, beginning his run in medias res with the marriage already on the rocks. He left it to the reader to infer why Jean hadn't counseled and comforted Scott as she always had. He left it to the reader to infer why she didn't reestablish their rapport. He left it to the reader to infer and rationalize why Scott started acting like a naive moron with Emma.

The collapse of their marriage only made sense if a) the reader never really bought Scott and Jean as a couple or b) the reader ignored the previous decade-plus of their characterization.

But, that's all water under the bridge now. Per Phoenix Resurrection, Jean has forgiven Scott. Rosenberg has said he intended for that scene to provide closure on the matter. Marvel isn't going to revisit it.

The open question now is: what, if anything, is Hickman going to do with Jott? We'll find out in a few months.

[juan678]

tye and Sophie in Korea yesterday

[phoenixzero23]

The venom crossover was all about Jean/Scott.
When they go for different paths Jean is all about how she misses Tyke and how she would tell him many things the next time they meet.
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then tyke is all worried about Jeen and danger tries to distract him with an hologram of jeen.
dfbedlg.jpg
then they meet and hug (super cute)
ugfuj.jpg


It is weird because with Jeen and Tyke marvel didn't put them together but teased them from time to time. They also teased, beast, Jimmy and Bloodstorm but They teased jott way more.

[KangMiRae]

Scott & Jean were never, and will never be in their mid-30's (same applies to Angel, Iceman and the Human Torch), because that would make Peter Parker in his mid-30's, and Marvel hates that idea, to the point Joe Q undid the marriage because he hated the idea of Peter looking old. And, of course, OMD is unquestionably the biggest example of a soft reboot at Marvel.

The aesthetics and general approach were changes Morrison was brought to do, and in part came from orders from above- the looks were a drastic change, but that was movie-mandated, and the bigger emphasis on the school was too, but it wasn't so absurd in either case. But many of the changes flowed from what happened before- he didn't ignore Magneto was the ruler of Genosha, just made him fail to protect it, wish played a part in his later characterization (not that his Magneto was good, mind you)

As for characterization of the marriage, it changed, but the point was that Scott was a very different person in part because of perhaps the biggest possible case of PTSD, by having to merge with the person he hates the most in the world, and with Jean also going through massive changes making her less human. This is, in fact, removing the elements of cosmic and super-villains, what happens in real life in many marriages- the people who were once happy go through stuff that makes them less adequate to one another, or one of them less able to relate to the other; add that to a spoiler with Emma, and, it's entirely understandable why the relationship would go the way they did. And it wasn't ignoring what happened before, it's not like Morrison had them hate each other, but just made them go through different circumstances.

Didn't Spencer have Mary Jane proclaim that Pete was in his early thirties in this Amazing Spider-Man run?

[KangMiRae]

tye and Sophie in Korea yesterday

Cute! I think they did the best they could with their script. I hope there are loving moments between their characters unlike X3.