Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation 2019

[Omega Alpha]

Didn't Spencer have Mary Jane proclaim that Pete was in his early thirties in this Amazing Spider-Man run?

No, mid 20's actually.

[MarvelMaster616]

tye and Sophie in Korea yesterday

Very sweet.

These two definitely seem to work well together. I saw it when they showed up for a promo at New York Comic Con last year. I think it will really help Dark Phoenix succeed in ways that X3 didn't. The core of the Phoenix Saga revolves around the love story between Scott and Jean. If this movie can capture that, then it will be a triumph in its own right.

[Decoy]

We've been through this before. Beast turned 30 in Nicieza's run in the early 90s, Scott and Jean weren't that much younger than him, and the stories that occurred between then and "Eve of Destruction" didn't all take place within 1-2 years. Scott and Jean were around 32-35ish by the end of "Eve of Destruction". Once he became writer, Morrison quietly de-aged them back to their mid-20s.

No, Marvel will never acknowledge this. But, this sort of informal, silent de-aging is an essential part of their sliding timeline and the ever-increasing requirement for suspension of disbelief that goes with it.



OMD was a hard reboot, just not a total one. It followed the post-Crisis model from DC: history has been changed, and most of the things that happened in previous stories kinda-sorta still happened, just not as they originally appeared in print. In Spider-Man's case, all those stories in which he and Mary Jane were married still happened, but just with the two of them living together since they never married. Similarly, Peter's identity was secret again so, while the stories that happened after his identity was made public still technically occurred, they occurred with his identity remaining secret.



As with his portrayal of Scott and Jean, there isn't a trace of the preceding writers' characterization of Magneto in Morrison's portrayal. Morrison wrote Magneto as a rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth caricature and deliberately so.

Such wild swings in behavior by long established characters, which require reader inference (i.e. headcanon) to make sense, are shitty writing.



...all of which could've been dealt with in a couple of pages if Jean had simply re-established her telepathic rapport with Scott. Why didn't she? >shrug< Jean had the memories of Dark Phoenix committing genocide--she knew exactly the sort of trauma Scott was going through. Why didn't this come up? Why didn't Jean use that experience to reach out to Scott? >shrug< Why was Scott so foolish as to turn for help to a woman who had already tried to seduce him and was partially responsible for unleashing Dark Phoenix? >shrug< Why weren't Xavier and Jean, two of the closest people to Scott in his entire life and, oh yeah, telepaths, treating him for his PTSD? >shrug<

Morrison wanted Scott and Jean to have marital problems and break up. So, they did. That's it. That's all. Morrison didn't lay much groundwork; he just used Scott's possession as a superficial pretext. He didn't earn it. He asserted it, beginning his run in medias res with the marriage already on the rocks. He left it to the reader to infer why Jean hadn't counseled and comforted Scott as she always had. He left it to the reader to infer why she didn't reestablish their rapport. He left it to the reader to infer and rationalize why Scott started acting like a naive moron with Emma.

The collapse of their marriage only made sense if a) the reader never really bought Scott and Jean as a couple or b) the reader ignored the previous decade-plus of their characterization.

But, that's all water under the bridge now. Per Phoenix Resurrection, Jean has forgiven Scott. Rosenberg has said he intended for that scene to provide closure on the matter. Marvel isn't going to revisit it.

The open question now is: what, if anything, is Hickman going to do with Jott? We'll find out in a few months.

I agree, it’s up to Hickman and whoever else writes after September/ October to decide where this ship stands......will they be on track to being a couple again (if they haven’t off panel)? Time will tell I guess.....

[KangMiRae]

No, mid 20's actually.

You're right! I just reread the issue

[Omega Alpha]

You're right! I just reread the issue

Of course, Peter being his mid 20's doesn't make much sense either (late 20's would be more it).

Personally, I'd be fine if everyone could age reasonably, and just look much younger because of powers, but Marvel doesn't want that. Even IRL there's people that could easily pass for a decade younger, let alone in a superhero world.

[Gray Lensman]

Very sweet.

These two definitely seem to work well together. I saw it when they showed up for a promo at New York Comic Con last year. I think it will really help Dark Phoenix succeed in ways that X3 didn't. The core of the Phoenix Saga revolves around the love story between Scott and Jean. If this movie can capture that, then it will be a triumph in its own right.

I'm still afraid all the good Jean/Scott scenes will be left on the cutting room floor to make room for more Xavier/Magneto waangst and another Wolverine cameo.

[Zelena]

I'm still afraid all the good Jean/Scott scenes will be left on the cutting room floor to make room for more Xavier/Magneto waangst and another Wolverine cameo.

In the comics, when the whole Dark Phoenix happened, Jean and Scott have been together for a long time and were much older. Scenes must make sense (should).

[Askani's Flame]

I'm still afraid all the good Jean/Scott scenes will be left on the cutting room floor to make room for more Xavier/Magneto waangst and another Wolverine cameo.

Yeah, that's my fear as well. But even still I don't think this film will sufficiently show a love story of Scott and Jean. I think Jean will get the characterization and build up she deserved in X3, but Scott will not. The love story element will be reserved for Mystique and Beast (or the one-sided one).

[SweetMuses]

Yeah, that's my fear as well. But even still I don't think this film will sufficiently show a love story of Scott and Jean. I think Jean will get the characterization and build up she deserved in X3, but Scott will not. The love story element will be reserved for Mystique and Beast (or the one-sided one).

Ugh--I'm also fearing that in the rush to get this last film out, they'll have effectively removed the second act of Scott & Jean's relationship-building and likely fast-forward thru a "he-touched-her-shoulder-on-the-spaceflight-up-so-we've-established-their-relationship" to "let's tear everything apart" mode. And the struggle and grief and longing and love won't feel earned.

At least I'm grateful that while Mystique got the "I'll talk Jean down/hear my voice" role, at least he won't be discarded early to set the inevitable into motion.

Still, I'm planning on seeing the film, and yes, I'm smoking my hopium imagining the possibilities and trying not to focus on inevitable disappointment!

[Omega Alpha]

It's a shame that Fox didn't learn from Marvel that the characters are more important than the actors. Even RDJ, who was ahead of anyone, had secondary roles in Civil War and Homecoming. But, nah, we need to make everything about Jennifer Lawrence.

[lancer]

I'm still afraid all the good Jean/Scott scenes will be left on the cutting room floor to make room for more Xavier/Magneto waangst and another Wolverine cameo.

I've always felt that the love story won't get the focus it might have because of added focus on Xavier, , Magneto and Mystique. Now, we don't have to like it, but it would be consistent with the previos 3 movies with these actors. We'll see in a few weeks.

[MarvelMaster616]

I'm still afraid all the good Jean/Scott scenes will be left on the cutting room floor to make room for more Xavier/Magneto waangst and another Wolverine cameo.

I'm not worried. The trailer alone assured me that we'll get more Scott/Jean than we ever got in X3. I feel like too many people are looking for standards with which to hate this movie. Even if there are Scott/Jean scenes, some fans will say it's not enough. Even if there are Xavier/Magneto moments, some fans will say they were too much or not enough. Even if there are scenes with Beast and Mystique, too many people will say it was poorly done. If you want to find an excuse to hate this movie, you'll find it. You can do that with EVERY movie. You can do that with Endgame, Captain Marvel, Star Wars, etc.

But it works the other way too. You can find things to enjoy and if you focus on those, you're more likely to enjoy the movie. That's how I'm approaching Dark Phoenix. I already believe it's better than X3 simply because it's not relegating the Phoenix to a side-plot. Also, it's not killing Cyclops off in the first 10 minutes. It's actually making an effort to tell a fully realized Phoenix story. And the trailers alone show that it's not the same as X3. There are cosmic elements. There are moments where Jean actually experiences emotional upheavals, something that was entirely absent from X3. As someone who loves and cherishes the Phoenix Saga, that's everything I'm hoping for.

I get it. Fox screwed up before. Kinberg himself has admitted it. And so many other people are writing off this movie because the X-Men are joining the MCU. But that shouldn't stop you from enjoying the movie for what it is. Both Sophie Turner and Tye Sherridan have shown, time and again, that they made an effort to capture the Scott/Jean chemistry. That alone should make this movie worth the ticket price.

[KangMiRae]

I'm not worried. The trailer alone assured me that we'll get more Scott/Jean than we ever got in X3. I feel like too many people are looking for standards with which to hate this movie. Even if there are Scott/Jean scenes, some fans will say it's not enough. Even if there are Xavier/Magneto moments, some fans will say they were too much or not enough. Even if there are scenes with Beast and Mystique, too many people will say it was poorly done. If you want to find an excuse to hate this movie, you'll find it. You can do that with EVERY movie. You can do that with Endgame, Captain Marvel, Star Wars, etc.

But it works the other way too. You can find things to enjoy and if you focus on those, you're more likely to enjoy the movie. That's how I'm approaching Dark Phoenix. I already believe it's better than X3 simply because it's not relegating the Phoenix to a side-plot. Also, it's not killing Cyclops off in the first 10 minutes. It's actually making an effort to tell a fully realized Phoenix story. And the trailers alone show that it's not the same as X3. There are cosmic elements. There are moments where Jean actually experiences emotional upheavals, something that was entirely absent from X3. As someone who loves and cherishes the Phoenix Saga, that's everything I'm hoping for.

I get it. Fox screwed up before. Kinberg himself has admitted it. And so many other people are writing off this movie because the X-Men are joining the MCU. But that shouldn't stop you from enjoying the movie for what it is. Both Sophie Turner and Tye Sherridan have shown, time and again, that they made an effort to capture the Scott/Jean chemistry. That alone should make this movie worth the ticket price.

Your optimism is a breath of fresh air. I think this is already leaps and blunds better than X3! We’ll have some Jott moments and it’ll be awesome. People are way too predisposed to hating this.

[lancer]

You can find a morsel of good in anything if you are bound and determined. X3. How about the joyous hug when they first see each other? How much Scott obviously misses her. Doesn't this show the love. X2. The scene at the beginning in the museum. Them exchanging I love yous when he snapped out of Stryker's brainwashing. So, now these movies were good representations of Jott overall?

I have no doubt that we will see something of the relationship in this movie.. There will be at least one moment, or more Depends on what your expectation bar is, I suppose. Is it something akin to what the comics gave us, what TAS gave us? I don't see us getting that. Keep saying it because it's true, let's see how the movies play out.

The pessimism is because of their track record over how many movies? Regarding KInberg, he has given interviews where he specifically coped to them greatly shortchanging Jott in X3? I'd be interested in a link to that interview.

[FUBAR007]

The pessimism is because of their track record over how many movies? Regarding KInberg, he has given interviews where he specifically coped to them greatly shortchanging Jott in X3? I'd be interested in a link to that interview.

X3 got boned by the studio. Fox insisted that Cyclops be killed off because James Marsden had been cast in WB's Superman Returns. Kinberg and co-writer Zak Penn then came up with the idea of Jean lapsing into Dark Phoenix and doing the deed.