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  1. #721
    Fantastic Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I have to agree with Sodam. Batman for instance is around the mid 80K now, when only some years back, including during Scott Snyder's run you would never see the main Batman title fall under 100K the way it does now. Seems to be lack of interest in general, rather than towards a specific book.
    Supporting my above point, Tom King's Batman has been an incredibly divisive run since the start. People stop buying comics because they stop liking them or they lose interest in them. When two of your top books, Batman and Justice League, are of dubious quality, you're going to see a decrease in your sales.

  2. #722
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    Supporting my above point, Tom King's Batman has been an incredibly divisive run since the start. People stop buying comics because they stop liking them or they lose interest in them.
    Same could be said about a good portion of Snyder's run. Zero Year wasn't a universally liked story and from what I recall, people weren't huge fans of Gordon as Batman, people used to also complain that most of Snyder's stories took too long with not much of a payoff, yet none of that was reflective in the sales. The writer does have a part to play in diminishing sales, like it was when Venditti took over from Johns, but general interest was certainly on a bigger level at the time. The New-52 overall did better commercially than Rebirth, so perhaps that played a role as well.
    Last edited by Johnny; 05-19-2019 at 04:09 PM.

  3. #723
    Astonishing Member Sodam Yat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    Okay. I'm going to run with this line of reasoning instead of bringing up any counter.

    Considering Justice League, wouldn't you think this would be one of the huge books that should determine whether people are interested in buying DC Comics? What I'm driving at is that Justice League is such a tent pole title that its quality could be linked specifically to WHY people aren't interested in buying DC Comics. Perhaps more Justice League comics were selling back during Darkseid War simply because it looked like more interesting things were happening in Justice League then compared to now, and perhaps that even more effort was being put in the title with Jason Fabok's artwork being a strong selling point.
    lol so you think Scott Snyder's title could be the reason why all comic books over at DC aren't selling well?

    I do think that anyone that's getting into DC comics should read the Justice League so they can pick and choose which specific character(s) they would like to read in an ongoing (that's where DC screwed up by not giving John and Kendra books).

    But at the same time, the Justice League and other books during rebirth later got either replaced by new #1s or cancelled, because of bad expectations. This all happened before Scott Snyder was even involved with Justice League. I would not blame this on Scott Snyder on reasonings on why DC Comics has lost general interest.

  4. #724
    Astonishing Member Sodam Yat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I have to agree with Sodam. Batman for instance is around the mid 80K now, when only some years back, including during Scott Snyder's run you would never see the main Batman title fall under 100K the way it does now. Seems to be lack of interest in general, rather than towards a specific book.
    Exactly, Johnny!

  5. #725
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodam Yat View Post
    lol so you think Scott Snyder's title could be the reason why all comic books over at DC aren't selling well?
    No, I think bad comics across the board, both at DC and Marvel, are one of the big reasons why comics sales are worse. And Justice League is certainly no exception. In my estimation, it's a bad comic, so its sales are less than what one would expect.

  6. #726
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodam Yat View Post
    And speaking of DC Comics sales, I'm starting to realize that maybe Grant Morrison's The Green Lantern could be part of that effect as well. I've been hearing positive reactions of The Green Lantern by Grant Morrison, but yet everyone here (including myself) expected these numbers to match New 52 and Rebirth. But I'm starting to believe it has nothing to do with fans not liking Green Lantern, but how DC publishers are no longer attracting new fans it seems. I was probably wrong on how I reacted towards The Green Lantern sales back then.
    That's probably right. The last issue sold more than any non-Batman, non-Justice League/event DC book but I'm not sure if that's because it's great or that the other DC titles are doing okay to mediocre on the direct sales market. We don't know for sure how much these books sell digitally so we'll never know the full picture.

  7. #727
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    There is a lot to factor into comic sales, but it's not always so arcane. People like Morrison's Green Lantern, so sales are up compared to the previous run and they look to be steady. Batman has an extremely mixed reception, so sales are down. Justice League also has a very mixed reception, so sales aren't as good as one might think considering the circumstances. In the end, what people are looking for most is good entertainment.

    If all of DC comics are generally doing poorly, a big part of the reason is that their output probably has serious creative problems. My personal thought is that DC is running too loose with its continuity to where people wonder why they should even be invested in their content, because they don't know what matters, and DC and Marvel are always overwriting their runs with constant relaunches, so what you read maybe a year ago might not even matter anymore. When the stories keep getting overwritten, you start wondering why you should even bother. A good example here is people wondering if this Ultra Violet stuff will even matter in the near future. It shouldn't be that way. This is due to really poor editing at the companies these days, a lack of coordination, and a lack of a long term vision. Beyond that, some stories, like Justice League, are just really poorly executed. It's no great wonder why sales are going down and down.

    It's true there is a lot to factor in, but a big piece that people just don't consider enough when they are debating marketing and distribution, is that the creative efforts of the companies are so often subpar, and that's the first thing that needs to be addressed. It's not going to do a ton of good to fix the distribution when the product is still crap and often incomprehensible.

  8. #728
    Astonishing Member Sodam Yat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    No, I think bad comics across the board, both at DC and Marvel, are one of the big reasons why comics sales are worse. And Justice League is certainly no exception. In my estimation, it's a bad comic, so its sales are less than what one would expect.
    Many Comic books has been heavily criticized among fans, but it didn't reflect in the sales.

  9. #729
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    People invest in things that they think will have a payoff. For some that's financial (resale collectors), and for others it's social proof (people who collect to call themselves collectors or early adopters of something that's expected to have a pop culture impact). Resale collectors buy books people will be interested in later (i.e., well reviewed, niche, or likely to be adapted because they're popular). Hard to say that with the quality of many of the current books. Early adopters aren't going to invest in books that don't seem to be going anywhere big, books that are hard to understand, or books that are overly nostalgic--i.e. many of the current books.

    Getting most people interested again would involve creating high quality books leading to a long term impact (think Sinestro Corps War era); diverse characters to attract wider readership (as in, "I can identify myself with that character"--like Marvel before Marvel started replacing ALL of their characters with legacies); and more modern costumes (New 52 without all of the busy lines--easiest way for characters to look more modern).

    I don't need to tell anyone how to make Batman interesting.

    The flagship Justice League should be written like other well-written team books--small roster of no more than 6 characters so that the featured heroes can be regularly spotlighted in character-focused stories. There's only so much you can do in 20/22 pages, and you don't want to make readers wait for months on end to read about the character they're actually buying the book for. Heck, even the movie rosters are only 6 characters at the start. People aren't paying $5 for a 2 page interaction.

    This book should be setting the foundation for the entire universe, so use it to focus on your biggest mythologies--i.e. most iconic IP. Don't just have one female or minority. On a six character team, I'd have Clark, Bruce, Diana, and Barry to attract the folks who have been reading since the Silver Age. I'd have John and M'Gann to keep the classic feel, while attracting fans of the cartoons and diversifying the roster. If you can't tell a character-centric story in the main part of the book, do it in a back up with a character who's in the title to have readers connect with that character. You can feature guest stars and guest teams or have an expanded roster in the form of other titles, but the main book should focus on the relationships of its core members.

    At this point, it should be clear that Green Lantern isn't a big franchise. Johns's presence on the book inflated interest since he was THE writer and since his crossovers seemed to be going somewhere for a while. He had the same effect on Flash, Aquaman, and others. Once those books lost his formula, the numbers deflated and the spinoffs were cancelled. Knowing that, why not tie the main book to the Lantern who's actually on the League (John). You get readers from that book who like John from there, you build his library, you get another diverse title, you get cartoon fans who have wanted him to be treated as an equal for a while now... And it feels like the start of something new--but with the added benefit of a recognizable character. I became interested through the cartoons but stopped reading because of how poorly non-white characters have been handled and written. When Jensen wrote GLC, I also bought Snyder's Batman and Superman titles because I was in the store and thought those were good, but I'm not interested enough in those characters alone to go to the store. No good black character books meant I stopped purchasing ALL of DC's and Marvel's books. I was so frustrated, I donated my collection of tpbs and floppies to a friend's kid, and I don't regret walking away.

    If one part of the formula is missing-- If one leg of the table is missing-- You lose big.

    Comics are competing with movies, tv, youtube, and social media. They're not going to be able to skate on brand name forever. They're not going to be able to skate on the politics of small niches (i.e., old collectors and those who can't find representation in other forms of media) forever. They've gotta be interesting. They've gotta be cool. They're neither of those things right now.

    Snyder had the right idea by trying to appeal to the larger fanbase that watched the cartoons growing up, but the stories aren't there. I'm not even asking for Watchmen quality. I'm asking for Johns's Shazam or Aquaman quality--character driven stories that are simple enough to understand without a wiki or a youtube video and stories that are good enough to potentially be adapted just because they're good enough to be worth a re-read.
    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 05-20-2019 at 08:11 PM.

  10. #730
    Astonishing Member Sodam Yat's Avatar
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    A lot of things you mentioned in what the DCU should be like is what Scott Snyder is already happening.

    I agree with your points, though

    I would say there's too many white guys having their own ongoing titles. It seems too obvious now, since we're in a time where a lot of these superheroes in multimedia is very diverse now. There's no reason for John to not have a book. Especially considering he remains to be a popular figure these days, thanks to those live shows.

  11. #731
    Fantastic Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    Snyder had the right idea by trying to appeal to the larger fanbase that watched the cartoons growing up, but the stories aren't there. I'm not even asking for Watchmen quality. I'm asking for Johns's Shazam or Aquaman quality--character driven stories that are simple enough to understand without a wiki or a youtube video and stories that are good enough to potentially be adapted just because they're good enough to be worth a re-read.
    No way what Snyder is doing here is good enough to adapt into any serious production that would require a lot of resources, and I doubt it ever will be. Granted, Johns' Justice League Origin wasn't good enough, either, but it's been adapted twice. However, at least one of those adaptations is recognized as a bomb.

    What you're saying is true that people will only invest in things if they feel there will be a pay off. That's what investing is all about. With John Stewart, there is never a pay off, and that's one of the main reasons I see investing in this character as a big waste of time and energy. Snyder's Justice League looked like it had the potential to do things with him. Since Snyder went for a line-up clearly inspired by the cartoon, it looked like we would finally be getting someone who "gets it," but by this point, I'm pretty sure John Stewart is not going anywhere, and those who think otherwise are just being overly optimistic, in my opinion, and are just giving Snyder points because he bothered to include John Stewart. My viewpoint, though, is what difference does John's inclusion make when he just winds up in the same spot he was before. And there is nothing on the horizon to think that anything with him will change.

    It's actually surprising to me how many times John Stewart fans allow themselves to be fooled by dreams of this character going somewhere. I concede that if it actually looks like something big and meaningful would be done with John, that's one thing. But we've seen what Snyder has done with John Stewart in 25 or 26 issues. He's well into his run. We've seen what he's capable of with John Stewart. I doubt there is going to be some massive showcase that totally turns things around for this nothing happening character.

  12. #732
    Astonishing Member Sodam Yat's Avatar
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    I don't agree with that at all. Scott Snyder has done something with John Stewart and I've seen John fans here satisfied. I can understand someone disliking the first arc, because they don't care for the concept, but that doesn't mean John has never shined in this series. Scott Snyder is obviously focusing on two different characters on each story arc. I honestly don't understand why some people expect John Stewart to be some kind of star while Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Martian Mahunter, The Flash, Kendra, Cyborg and Aquaman just be background supporting characters in this series. That's beyond me.

    Every character played a big role. The only character I think people here should be very upset about is Cyborg. He was also part of this roster and what's done with him was misleading. He may appear in another JL series, but it doesn't excuse that lack of use for the character in this run.
    Last edited by Sodam Yat; 05-21-2019 at 11:38 AM.

  13. #733
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    He got some new power. I'm not impressed.

    He also got a Star Sapphire ring some years ago. That mostly went nowhere (and was also not a good idea).

    Still not impressed.

    He might redeem himself for Xanshi for 6th time, because that's the only story these writers know how to tell with him. Not impressed.

  14. #734
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodam Yat View Post
    Many Comic books has been heavily criticized among fans, but it didn't reflect in the sales.
    Because some books will get orders no matter what fans say because it is all about WHO is on the cover.
    And some folks IGNORE those books that pack BINS like Green Lantern, Hal Jordan & TGLC or even events like Doomsday Clock (sometimes the week after they come out).

    What DC is ignoring is the rise of the indy books. Lets use John-why would anyone settle for what has been done with him (and Cyborg, Vixen, Bumblebee, Duke, Wallace & BL).
    When I can name 20 (within the last 4 years) of books that showcase a black male better than DC. And NO I am not counting Marvel books in that number.

    Folks have choices now and they are acting on them.

    I don't agree with that at all. Scott Snyder has done something with John Stewart and I've seen John fans here satisfied. I can understand someone disliking the first arc, because they don't care for the concept, but that doesn't mean John has never shined in this series.
    I think the issue has been-we see this stuff for an arc or two and then it gets tossed away or undone later on. Especially with black characters.

    If John has moved on from that blowing up planets-that should NOT be tossed back into the mix 5-12 months later. He needs something NEW.

  15. #735
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    Here are problems I see.

    John gets a Star Sapphire ring. Nothing really comes from that except he uses it in one issue, then it is never mentioned again. I don't think John having a Star Sapphire ring is a good idea, but why should someone get excited by that development when it goes nowhere?

    John Stewart gets to lead his own series with the GLC members as support. He's leading them through an unknown and hostile universe. I think Lost Army is a boring, slow moving story, with bland art that is often lacking any interesting set pieces (backgrounds and environments) but why should I recommend that series or go back and read it when it goes nowhere and doesn't finish?

    So John Stewart gets to be leader of the Green Lantern Corps, huh? Well, the only way that feels earned at all is because Robert Venditti spent many issues showing that Hal Jordan was incompetent, not because of anything particularly special about John Stewart. Why should I be excited about John Stewart being leader of the Corps when he mostly gets relegated to a desk job assigning the other Lanterns to go out on field missions, all while only appearing in a book literally called "Hal Jordan"?

    Take all that into consideration...

    Now why should I give two poops about the Ultra Violet stuff? Not only do I think it's a poor concept, but I would have to be an utter dupe to even think it's going to matter one fig in the development of this character. Besides, new powers isn't really what John Stewart needs. He needs intelligent character driven stories that advance his character, showcase his relations to the characters around him in worthwhile ways, stories that raise his status and actually make him matter, and stories and concepts that aren't going to be discarded two minutes after they see print.

    I saw John Stewart share the Justice League cartoon show with Batman and Superman and all those others, and I never once felt he was some background wallpaper guy who wasn't a fully realized character. I don't care that this is comics and that was a cartoon. That makes no difference. It's about storytelling and the priorities of the story teller.

    The 26 or so issues of the current run of Justice League tell me that Snyder is not interested in exploring or advancing John Stewart as a character. That is not his priority. His priority is his "forces". The Justice League cartoon was masterful because it showed us epic adventures with impressive character work for the heroes and villains. Bruce Timm and his team were always great at this. Go watch his Madhatter, Mr. Freeze, and Clock King episodes of Batman: The Animated Series, or countless others. We get great adventures with brilliant character work. With Snyder, we get "forces".

    Give me a five page backup to write and draw of Justice League, and I guarantee you, literally guarantee you, I will do more with John Stewart as a character than Snyder and Tynion have done this entire 26 or so issue series. This would be because my priorities would be different than Snyder's.

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