John Stewart Appreciation 2019

[SJNeal]

I'll take John/Kendra any day if it means freeing up Shayera to be with Katar (not Carter; he's drama).

[Sodam Yat]

Oh jeez, lol. That's very kind of you. But no, I'm just way into critical analysis.

But holy crap. *SPOILERS FOR THE ANNUAL! AVERT YOUR EYES.* spoilers:

I was completely wrong on Kendra and J'onn. Well. Okay then. Not gonna lie, I'm a little confused. Need some time to wrap my head around this, but we'll see where Snyder goes with it. It's a strange creative choice, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think he's earned it.

end of spoilers

I just got through reading this issue. And this is why I consider Scott Snyder one of my top writers. Although there's not a lot of John Stewart, the issue was amazing. I hope this turns out to be a big DCU event.

To be completely honest, it doesn't bother me as much anymore I just hope that John and Shayera become an item. And even if a ship happens with Martian Manhunter and Kendra, I doubt it's going to be endgame, since I feel that there's going to be a love triangle with Carter. So far, J'onn J'onzz doesn't seem as invested in the relationship as Kendra does. But we'll see.

[anonymc]

I mean, she lost the person she loved, Katar. John Stewart knows how that feels to lose someone they were in loved with. I would expect John to help comfort Shayera on what's she's going through and express his feelings about how he lost someone he loved as well. That was a perfect time to tease some kind of chemistry between the two.

I thought about this as well. It's something they could potentially play with later, possibly as a turning point. If she does get pushed with John, I'm expecting Snyder to play them belligerent-sexual-tension style like in the DCAU. (Because he's an unabashed fanboy lol.) Both of them knowing the pain of losing a spouse could be their common ground that moves them from being uneasy comrades to actual friends.

This is all speculation, of course. We haven't seen them interact anywhere near enough to know what their actual dynamic might be. And it'll probably be a while before we find out anyway. I'm guessing the Thanagarians went back to Thanagar Prime after the annual and they're all going to remain there until the event this summer.

Kind of off-topic, but I'm trying to remember if John ever bonded with Rose about this since it would've been the same sort of situation. I can't remember that he ever did. Maybe it's actually a sore spot for him? It's not like he doesn't talk about Katma, though.

To be completely honest, it doesn't bother me as much anymore I just hope that John and Shayera become an item. And even if a ship happens with Martian Manhunter and Kendra, I doubt it's going to be endgame, since I feel that there's going to be a love triangle with Carter. So far, J'onn J'onzz doesn't seem as invested in the relationship as Kendra does. But we'll see.

I saw someone suggest that the kiss wasn't actually about feelings, and that it was instead something of a panicked outburst fueled by Kendra's turmoil over her identity. She jumped on J'onn because they've been buddies lately. I can totally buy this. It lines up with what she says right after the kiss, too, and explains the constant callbacks to Carter despite her supposedly gunning for someone else.

I don't think it's even going to be a triangle tbh. Obviously I've already been wrong about this once, but comic book relationships are almost always idealized. It's almost unheard of for it to get to a kiss and not be mutual, but, as you've said, J'onn is clearly disinterested. I'm not sure how this is going to play out. Maybe they give it a try before deciding that it's not going to work or maybe it gets nipped at the bud and J'onn plays counselor for a while. I honestly don't know. Snyder mentioned that Carter has a role in the story he's telling, though, so endgame J'onn/Kendra seems really, really unlikely.

[Anthony Shaw]

The problem with that would be the fact that Shayera would no longer reincarnate. I doubt some writer would even retcon her being able to reincarnate again. I'm sure something like that would have to go through editorial and Scott Snyder.

This is true of everything in comics. The next guy to write John may have him give up the hero gig to fulfill his lifelong dream of being a used car salesman. It's just always a risk you run.

There is a bit of a buffer here, though. First and foremost is what Sodam Yat brought up. Snyder seems like he's gaining a lot of clout at DC. His developments will be the ones more likely to stick. The last time someone with a lot of clout touched the Hawks, it was Geoff Johns, and his actions in pushing the Reincarnation Hawks all but eradicated the Space Hawks, even long after he was gone.

Secondly is notoriety. Shayera has the "benefit" of being the Hawk that no one at DC cares about. She was killed off while JLU was still on. That's how little they care. That was 2005. Do you know how many times she's been back since then? Once. In 2012. And she died within five issues. (Fwiw, Katar was Hawkman at that time and DC had absolutely no problems with giving him a new love interest.) Justice League #14 was the first time she'd appeared in almost six years outside of two or three specials--all of which were out of continuity. If you're ever down about John's lack of exposure, just remind yourself that at least he's not Hawkwoman. To undo what Snyder is doing, people would have to want to use Shayera, and as you can see, she's not exactly in high demand.

I get that Hawk ships are scary, but John/Shayera is pretty low risk in the grand scheme of things.

You two are awesome. I enjoy reading both your posts.

However, IIRC, after Geoff seemingly restored Hawkman as usable character with a more understandable backstory, Jim Starlin did a story that kinda made things nuts again.

No one mentions the Starlin story, but I do recall fans being upset with it as it seemed like Jim may not have read what Johns previously set-up, or the editor was sleeping behind the wheel.

I won't complain if John does end up with Shayera, but I seriously don't think pairing will go the distance if it happens.

[Anthony Shaw]

I will always see a Hawkgirl/woman ultimately being with Hawkman.

Kendra being with MM does not bother me because it will only be a fun blip on his radar.

I fear any version of Hawkgirl eventually leaving John to ultimately be with Hawkman would just add another tale of woe to John's backstory.

I think John will work best with another ring-slinger, preferably Kat. I don't think John would work with a civilian love interest.....that is just Carol Ferris all over again.

I do like Vixen, but I feel her partner is Bronze Tiger.

I'd be open to John dating Fire, as double dating with Guy & Ice could be funny.

But ultimately, I am glad John is being used in a monthly comic, and spending time away from the GLC.

[DragonsChi]

I never cared for the Vixen pairing because I always thought it would ground John to earth to much. At least with Hawkgirl they could cut the time down the middle between the two of them. Even without her Alien origin the Nth metal aspect of the Hawks leans more into the space world.

If John is to get matched up with anyone I feel it be better to have someone who has Space/cosmic roots or leans more into that world.

[Rumble]

Exactly, Rumble

I think the arc was poorly written. I mean, she lost the person she loved, Katar. John Stewart knows how that feels to lose someone they were in loved with. I would expect John to help comfort Shayera on what's she's going through and express his feelings about how he lost someone he loved as well. That was a perfect time to tease some kind of chemistry between the two.

On Scott Snyder's defense, I could understand John not playing a big role in this arc, since he already had a big role in the Totality arc. Scott Snyder already planned to focus on two Leaguers on each arc. But he should've at least allowed John to interact with Shayera.

It's a fair defense; tho I just feel that even if the focus is on two other Leaguers, you simply don't put John, Shayera, and Kendra all in the same space, in a Justice League book inspired by the popularity of the great animated show (in which Kendra is in Shayera's spot), and *not* do something fun with it lol. Whether it's a tease, layin down the ground works, or just something that gives readers a small smile or smirk bc of a clever reference or call back. Like you said, even them relating to a sense of loss would've been a perfect time to sprinkle some sugar or spice. but alas

I will always see a Hawkgirl/woman ultimately being with Hawkman.

Kendra being with MM does not bother me because it will only be a fun blip on his radar.

I fear any version of Hawkgirl eventually leaving John to ultimately be with Hawkman would just add another tale of woe to John's backstory.

I think John will work best with another ring-slinger, preferably Kat. I don't think John would work with a civilian love interest.....that is just Carol Ferris all over again.

I do like Vixen, but I feel her partner is Bronze Tiger.

I'd be open to John dating Fire, as double dating with Guy & Ice could be funny.

But ultimately, I am glad John is being used in a monthly comic, and spending time away from the GLC.

Vixen is bae. Full stop. lol

My pet peeve since the on-set of new 52 is they kept John in space the whole time, away from the greater DC sandbox. So him being in the justice league is a needed blessing. That said, he has some unfinished business with Fatality, who is(was) also bae... before the whole some-what-mind-controlled-so-I-still-really-hate-you reveal thing, that just made everything awkward as fukk.. lol.

But we may be at the point where jensens run never happened; one of those ignored forever except in our hearts

[anonymc]

I will always see a Hawkgirl/woman ultimately being with Hawkman.

I won't complain if John does end up with Shayera, but I seriously don't think pairing will go the distance if it happens.

I deliberately didn't reply to SJNeal's post because I would've gone on a Hawk tangent and the John Stewart appreciation thread is 100% not the place for it. But it keeps coming and I have no self-control so...

In case my awful attempts to hide it didn't make it abundantly clear, I. Love. The Hawks. And I don't think it's possible to be a Hawk fan without liking them together. Katar/Shayera? I love it. (Carter/Kendra is great, too, but just not quite on their level.) I just have no faith in it anymore.

I've been reading the tone for a while, and I really think the Space Hawks are on their way out. Making Katar and Shayera reincarnations makes them near-impossible to use. Now that they're part of the cycle, their stories would have to reflect that, right? But can you imagine using Katar and Shayera for a story about Hath-Set? No, that sounds ridiculous. You'd use Carter and Kendra. Which poses a problem.

By making them reincarnations, Venditti has dropped them into the same boat as Shiera, and guess what? She's completely gone. "No, she's not! She's Kendra!" Yeah, Shayera is/was ALSO technically Kendra. You see my point? If Kendra and Shiera can't coexist, what makes you think Kendra and Shayera or Carter and Katar can? ESPECIALLY Carter and Katar. Let's be honest. Even if Venditti's new metaphysiology stuff makes it possible for the Space Hawks and the Earth Hawks to coexist, they're never going to. Carter and Katar have too much in common. Hell, they even look the same now. Why would DC have two characters that were nearly identical all the way down to the alias running around at the same time? They wouldn't.

Venditti's solution creates a very neat little bow for everything that's happened until now, but it also railroads the story into using Carter and Kendra going forward. I don't think Shayera could've ever been reintroduced without the intent to remove her from everything. At least not without a giant death flag.

Your argument of not knowing if it'd hold is fair. Comics are glorified soap operas and nothing is ever foolproof. Longevity would depend on how Snyder played things, I think. Notably whether she's Hawkwoman or just Shayera, John's oversized-turkey girlfriend. In the end, though, I genuinely think the pairing would be in more danger from Fatality than Katar. Even if a writer gets all the stars to align and pulls Katar out of the tar pit that is the reincarnation cycle, they'd still have to want him with Shayera. And the last twenty-five years worth of Hawkman writers haven't. That's not an exaggeration. They haven't been together--like ACTUALLY together and not just backstory or references--since just after Zero Hour. There's actually a reply in the letter column for one of the 90s Hawkman books where the editor/author/whoever writes those asks if Hawkman and Hawkwoman really NEED to be together. It's not a new development. (I don't get that part either. The whole schtick for the Silver Age Hawks was that they were a husband and wife superhero team. You'd think their relationship would be a little more iconic.)

Everyone's entitled to their favorites, of course. Shayera will never be Katma or Vixen or anyone else. Who John works best with is going to be subjective and vary from person to person. And that's cool. Variety is the spice of life. And other inspirational quotes.

So how about them John Stewarts? Pretty cool guy, yeah? I like his ring. (I'm sorry. It's out of my system, I swear.)

[Sodam Yat]

I thought about this as well. It's something they could potentially play with later, possibly as a turning point. If she does get pushed with John, I'm expecting Snyder to play them belligerent-sexual-tension style like in the DCAU. (Because he's an unabashed fanboy lol.) Both of them knowing the pain of losing a spouse could be their common ground that moves them from being uneasy comrades to actual friends.

This is all speculation, of course. We haven't seen them interact anywhere near enough to know what their actual dynamic might be. And it'll probably be a while before we find out anyway. I'm guessing the Thanagarians went back to Thanagar Prime after the annual and they're all going to remain there until the event this summer.

Kind of off-topic, but I'm trying to remember if John ever bonded with Rose about this since it would've been the same sort of situation. I can't remember that he ever did. Maybe it's actually a sore spot for him? It's not like he doesn't talk about Katma, though.

Hopefully Snyder would have him and Shayera work together. Starman told Shayera that she's going to play an important role where she's going to lead her people. John Stewart has a history of being an intellectual leader. He's lead the Green Lantern Corps and Darkstars. It would be nice to see John giving tips to Shayera on leadership and how important it is. When the new creative team took over after Geoff Johns leaving the Green Lantern franchise, John Stewart became a very competent Green Lantern and earned the leadership role. Not only that their shared experience was how John and Shayera had an unfortunate experience of losing someone they loved, but the fact that it seems like she's going to be a leader of Thanagar. There's just so many ways for Scott Snyder to build up John and Shayera's relationship.

The good thing is that it does look like they're going to use Shayera more now, considering we see her in the Annual. In a recent interview, Scott Snyder teased that there's going to be a DCU wide event. Hopefully we'll see some new books that's related to the event. I'm sure we'll see more of Shayera in the coming months.

You mean Rose Hardin?

I saw someone suggest that the kiss wasn't actually about feelings, and that it was instead something of a panicked outburst fueled by Kendra's turmoil over her identity. She jumped on J'onn because they've been buddies lately. I can totally buy this. It lines up with what she says right after the kiss, too, and explains the constant callbacks to Carter despite her supposedly gunning for someone else.

I have to go and read that again. As of right now, she seems like she has some feelings for Martian Manhunter, even knowing that she expresses her happiness without Carter. James Tynion said there's going to be more exploration about the kiss that happened and how Martian Manhunter still can't get over his wife and family. I'm sure that's going to cause a concern on Kendra being his potential love interest. Nothing's official yet.

I don't think it's even going to be a triangle tbh. Obviously I've already been wrong about this once, but comic book relationships are almost always idealized. It's almost unheard of for it to get to a kiss and not be mutual, but, as you've said, J'onn is clearly disinterested. I'm not sure how this is going to play out. Maybe they give it a try before deciding that it's not going to work or maybe it gets nipped at the bud and J'onn plays counselor for a while. I honestly don't know. Snyder mentioned that Carter has a role in the story he's telling, though, so endgame J'onn/Kendra seems really, really unlikely.

Yea, maybe they're experimenting with the relationship to see how it will turn out.

[Sodam Yat]

It's a fair defense; tho I just feel that even if the focus is on two other Leaguers, you simply don't put John, Shayera, and Kendra all in the same space, in a Justice League book inspired by the popularity of the great animated show (in which Kendra is in Shayera's spot), and *not* do something fun with it lol. Whether it's a tease, layin down the ground works, or just something that gives readers a small smile or smirk bc of a clever reference or call back. Like you said, even them relating to a sense of loss would've been a perfect time to sprinkle some sugar or spice. but alas

Yea, there was no excuses on why John didn't have a real good communication with any of the Hawks. That would've been a great moment.

Anyways, after the six dimension arc, I'm hoping that John will be the center focus again like the first Justice League arc. This is assuming Scott Snyder is going to still do rotations on focusing on different leaguers on each arc and of course Cyborg and Batman don't play center on the next arc.

Scott Snyder also said he wants to make sure characters like John Stewart, Hawkgirl, and Martian Manhunter get treated as equally important as Superman, Wonder Woman etc. This is good, but John still needs a solo

[Anthony Shaw]

Vixen is bae. Full stop. lol

My pet peeve since the on-set of new 52 is they kept John in space the whole time, away from the greater DC sandbox. So him being in the justice league is a needed blessing. That said, he has some unfinished business with Fatality, who is(was) also bae... before the whole some-what-mind-controlled-so-I-still-really-hate-you reveal thing, that just made everything awkward as fukk.. lol.

But we may be at the point where jensens run never happened; one of those ignored forever except in our hearts

I'll admit, I was cool with John staying with Mari in the DCAU. Mari was just fun. It was great seeing a black heroine, not named Storm, in animation.

Damn man....what are they gonna do with Yrra?

Anything can happen if John runs into Yrra again. You can go in any direction with that relationship, and it would all make sense....somehow.

John don't need the mess the Hawks bring.....he got plenty of mess with Yrra.

[Anthony Shaw]

I deliberately didn't reply to SJNeal's post because I would've gone on a Hawk tangent and the John Stewart appreciation thread is 100% not the place for it. But it keeps coming and I have no self-control so...

In case my awful attempts to hide it didn't make it abundantly clear, I. Love. The Hawks. And I don't think it's possible to be a Hawk fan without liking them together. Katar/Shayera? I love it. (Carter/Kendra is great, too, but just not quite on their level.) I just have no faith in it anymore.

I've been reading the tone for a while, and I really think the Space Hawks are on their way out. Making Katar and Shayera reincarnations makes them near-impossible to use. Now that they're part of the cycle, their stories would have to reflect that, right? But can you imagine using Katar and Shayera for a story about Hath-Set? No, that sounds ridiculous. You'd use Carter and Kendra. Which poses a problem.

By making them reincarnations, Venditti has dropped them into the same boat as Shiera, and guess what? She's completely gone. "No, she's not! She's Kendra!" Yeah, Shayera is/was ALSO technically Kendra. You see my point? If Kendra and Shiera can't coexist, what makes you think Kendra and Shayera or Carter and Katar can? ESPECIALLY Carter and Katar. Let's be honest. Even if Venditti's new metaphysiology stuff makes it possible for the Space Hawks and the Earth Hawks to coexist, they're never going to. Carter and Katar have too much in common. Hell, they even look the same now. Why would DC have two characters that were nearly identical all the way down to the alias running around at the same time? They wouldn't.

Venditti's solution creates a very neat little bow for everything that's happened until now, but it also railroads the story into using Carter and Kendra going forward. I don't think Shayera could've ever been reintroduced without the intent to remove her from everything. At least not without a giant death flag.

Your argument of not knowing if it'd hold is fair. Comics are glorified soap operas and nothing is ever foolproof. Longevity would depend on how Snyder played things, I think. Notably whether she's Hawkwoman or just Shayera, John's oversized-turkey girlfriend. In the end, though, I genuinely think the pairing would be in more danger from Fatality than Katar. Even if a writer gets all the stars to align and pulls Katar out of the tar pit that is the reincarnation cycle, they'd still have to want him with Shayera. And the last twenty-five years worth of Hawkman writers haven't. That's not an exaggeration. They haven't been together--like ACTUALLY together and not just backstory or references--since just after Zero Hour. There's actually a reply in the letter column for one of the 90s Hawkman books where the editor/author/whoever writes those asks if Hawkman and Hawkwoman really NEED to be together. It's not a new development. (I don't get that part either. The whole schtick for the Silver Age Hawks was that they were a husband and wife superhero team. You'd think their relationship would be a little more iconic.)

Everyone's entitled to their favorites, of course. Shayera will never be Katma or Vixen or anyone else. Who John works best with is going to be subjective and vary from person to person. And that's cool. Variety is the spice of life. And other inspirational quotes.

So how about them John Stewarts? Pretty cool guy, yeah? I like his ring. (I'm sorry. It's out of my system, I swear.)

Actually, you really drove home how the Hawks don't need John in their mix, unless as a great friend, like Ray Palmer. From now until eternity, every writer will want to straighten out the Hawks, with various degrees of success.

It makes no sense to throw John in that mix as a romantic partner. John will be the odd-man out, eventually.

It did not work for Roy Harper, Sand, or even Power Girl in previous triangle attempts.

If I was a comic book character, I'd file a restraining order on Kendra, to free myself for Power Girl.

[anonymc]

When the new creative team took over after Geoff Johns leaving the Green Lantern franchise, John Stewart became a very competent Green Lantern and earned the leadership role.

Does John still have this role? You mentioned bad writing a couple days ago, but the one thing in the Escape from Hawkworld arc that stuck out to me as truly bad writing was Kilowog threatening to turn John in for insubordination. John can't be insubordinate if he's one of the leaders of the corps.

You mean Rose Hardin?

Yeah. I don't remember it ever coming up. Though to be fair, I probably have to reread Mosaic. I found the art way too distracting to really follow the story half the time. I wish they'd gone with a less abstract style.

I have to go and read that again. As of right now, she seems like she has some feelings for Martian Manhunter, even knowing that she expresses her happiness without Carter. James Tynion said there's going to be more exploration about the kiss that happened and how Martian Manhunter still can't get over his wife and family. I'm sure that's going to cause a concern on Kendra being his potential love interest. Nothing's official yet.

Oh, I hadn't heard about that. That's cool. I look forward to seeing where they go with J'onn/Kendra. The pairing itself is utterly harmless, and while I know it's not going to last, we may get some good character development out of it. I'm just hoping they resolve it before Carter comes in. Triangles are icky.

Actually, you really drove home how the Hawks don't need John in their mix, unless as a great friend, like Ray Palmer. From now until eternity, every writer will want to straighten out the Hawks, with various degrees of success.

It makes no sense to throw John in that mix as a romantic partner. John will be the odd-man out, eventually.

It did not work for Roy Harper, Sand, or even Power Girl in previous triangle attempts.

If I was a comic book character, I'd file a restraining order on Kendra, to free myself for Power Girl.

Agree to disagree. If it were Kendra, it would be another story, but Shayera has been entirely disassociated with the reincarnation cycle and thus separated from the other Hawks. The mayhem shouldn't apply to her. I'd also argue that the pairings you named were never intended to last. They were just to create drama between Carter and Kendra. Katar is dead. There's no one to create drama with here.

Obligatory reminder that Earth 12 is also a thing. John/Shayera has already happened in the canon DCU multiverse and been totally fine. This Shayera is almost certainly a later incarnation of THAT Shayera so Snyder would have that to run with as well. (She'd also be Kendra. So lemonpeace, you got your wish. Just very, very indirectly.)

[LP22]

Some people need to accept that that the DCA universe wasn't they're entry nor they're favourite John Stewart version and most importantly don't want John to be with Hawk Girl just saying

[anonymc]

Some people need to accept that that the DCA universe wasn't they're entry nor they're favourite John Stewart version and most importantly don't want John to be with Hawk Girl just saying

Absolutely no one said otherwise. Everyone has been very polite to each other even when they have differing opinions. You're complaining about something that never happened.