John Stewart Appreciation 2019

[Sam]

Where did I blame Snyder? I don't read the book and could careless who gets showcased because at the end it does not HELP anyone in the book. It's just another book on the shelf.
Once again you can give equal crap to those without books-its not going to mean ANYTHING other than an excuse NOT to use them elsewhere.

We may be having two entirely different arguments.

[Vampire Savior]

I never said otherwise, though. John also seemed to have success in sales back in the 80s and 90s on his solos and look how that went. The thing is, DC put effort and capitalize on characters on who they want to push.

That was a really long time ago, and there isn't much data out there to see exactly how well those titles did. I've seen some distribution lists that Jim Shooter provided (strange he had them, since he was with Marvel at the time), but they were an incomplete picture of how well Green Lantern did in the 80s while John was around.

Huh? It is true, those Ben Oliver variants were different from the regular DC variant cover books.

Oh? How so?

Again, no effort, regardless how negligible it is. It's better than nothing, right?

It's just that you're complaining about something that was so small that it's unlikely to have made a difference.

Cullen Bunn said something like he doesn't know how the sales are going to be for 12 issues or something like that and said so far, people seem to dig it. He said this in a Q/A. And a month later, that's when they announce the cancellation for Edge of Oblivion. Even Cullen Bunn said he had no idea there was another series in the works when he was writing Lost Army.

"People seem to dig it" could mean that he's pleased with how fans are reacting to the book on a creative level.

John Stewart does deserve his own title,

Why? Why him and not Guy Gardner? Or would you say they both do? If so (I'm just dealing with these variables now to save myself the trouble of having to later) DC just can't publish zillions of GL related books.

even one of the DC talent shop writers even said the character does deserve his own title.

Who cares what that person said, though. They probably aren't any kind of authority on publishing or business.

It just takes effort from DC to warrant this.

Maybe. But it wouldn't hurt to have really good reasons why DC should put the effort and resources into such a venture.

I don't see why he doesn't deserve one.

His last two didn't sell that great. GLC by Van Jenson was often propped up by events with GL by Venditti, and without them it floundered in sales. Lost Army...we've already been over that.

So I disagree that fans themselves shouldn't ask DC to give John Stewart a title, even knowing that he's on the Justice League.

You can disagree with that, but I'm not sure who or what you're disagreeing with. I don't think anyone ever took an issue with people asking DC to give John Stewart a title.

I think it's reasonable for fans here to want for John Stewart to have a title. They're fans of the character after all. There's really nothing wrong with that.

You can want that all you like. It's when you say things like "there's no excuse" why he doesn't have a title that you step into the realm of unreasonable. There are plenty of good reasons why John Stewart doesn't have a book right now, but all it takes is one reason: It probably won't sell all that great. Do you have any kind of evidence to put forth that it would sell great? Anything to back up a statement like "there's no good excuse why John Stewart doesn't have a title?"

[Sodam Yat]

That was a really long time ago, and there isn't much data out there to see exactly how well those titles did. I've seen some distribution lists that Jim Shooter provided (strange he had them, since he was with Marvel at the time), but they were an incomplete picture of how well Green Lantern did in the 80s while John was around.

Well that was an example that I was trying to make. DC chooses who they want to push.

Oh? How so?

Ben Oliver's variants were not tied to the other variants that were going on in the majority of the comics at the DCYOU. Like how sometimes each month, comics may have a variant cover that has the same theme. Lost Army's variants were different than those.

It's just that you're complaining about something that was so small that it's unlikely to have made a difference.

At least it's effort. Doesn't matter whether it's big or small. And don't I have a right to complain and be critical?

"People seem to dig it" could mean that he's pleased with how fans are reacting to the book on a creative level.

That's not really how I interpret it, though.

Why? Why him and not Guy Gardner? Or would you say they both do? If so (I'm just dealing with these variables now to save myself the trouble of having to later) DC just can't publish zillions of GL related books.

But they have in the past. Ethan Van Sciver said editorial don't care about which Green Lantern there are in a pitch.

Who cares what that person said, though. They probably aren't any kind of authority on publishing or business.

lol I care

Maybe. But it wouldn't hurt to have really good reasons why DC should put the effort and resources into such a venture.

His last two didn't sell that great. GLC by Van Jenson was often propped up by events with GL by Venditti, and without them it floundered in sales. Lost Army...we've already been over that.

The same can be said for other comics as well and they've been given another chance. And those books you mentioned weren't even in cancellation numbers.

Omega Men was supposed to be cancelled, but Dan Didio decided to let the book run it's course. Lost Army didn't get that kind of chance, despite it being in higher numbers. And even then, other characters got more chances, so why can't John?

You can disagree with that, but I'm not sure who or what you're disagreeing with. I don't think anyone ever took an issue with people asking DC to give John Stewart a title.

ok, I must've read your post too fast and interpret it wrong.

You can want that all you like. It's when you say things like "there's no excuse" why he doesn't have a title that you step into the realm of unreasonable. There are plenty of good reasons why John Stewart doesn't have a book right now, but all it takes is one reason: It probably won't sell all that great. Do you have any kind of evidence to put forth that it would sell great? Anything to back up a statement like "there's no good excuse why John Stewart doesn't have a title?"

I don't think that's the reason why they're not giving John a book. I don't think it has anything to do with that, to be honest.

[Vampire Savior]

Well that was an example that I was trying to make. DC chooses who they want to push.

Well...clearly. Somebody must decide these things.

Ben Oliver's variants were not tied to the other variants that were going on in the majority of the comics at the DCYOU. Like how sometimes each month, comics may have a variant cover that has the same theme. Lost Army's variants were different than those.

Unless one of those variant themes was a smash success (the only one I'm really aware of is bombshells), this probably didn't impact Lost Army's sales that much. And even then, I don't think your argument is sound, because much of the sales would be attributed to a variant cover, not the adventures of the lead character, which is what should really be considered here.

At least it's effort. Doesn't matter whether it's big or small. And don't I have a right to complain and be critical?

In my personal opinion, that particular complaint of yours is trifling.

That's not really how I interpret it, though.

Well, we can actually look at how the sales went using sites like Comichron. The book started out fairly tepid. Granted, all of DCYOU did. Then it finished up with numbers in the low 20,000 units. For a mainstream DC Comic, I'm not sure why someone would say sales are fine in a scenario like that.

But they have in the past. Ethan Van Sciver said editorial don't care about which Green Lantern there are in a pitch.

This is another instance of you disregarding key factors to fit your narrative. DC published a bunch of Green Lantern titles when those Green Lantern titles were selling well!

The same can be said for other comics as well and they've been given another chance. And those books you mentioned weren't even in cancellation numbers.

They were pretty darn close. It doesn't always take being in cancellation numbers to get a book cancelled. If DC sees a book isn't selling as well as they want, they will sometimes, intelligently stop publishing that title to free up resources for something that will hopefully sell better. That's what happened in Lost Army's case.

So, your argument is that because other characters have been given numerous chances after being cancelled due to low sales, DC should do this with John Stewart? Hmm. I think that's a whole other rabbit hole that I'm not sure I feel like going down. I will just say that the only time I can see such an odd tactic being intelligent is if you're planning something larger with the character, like a feature film, and you want trade paperbacks of their adventures around before your film/show/whatever hits. By the looks of things, there were no such plans for John Stewart, so employing this tactic would make little sense as I see it.

Omega Men was supposed to be cancelled, but Dan Didio decided to let the book run it's course. Lost Army didn't get that kind of chance, despite it being in higher numbers. And even then, other characters got more chances, so why can't John?

Omega Men was also way more critically acclaimed than any comic John has ever been a lead character in, aside from maybe Mosaic, and probably even then.

I don't think that's the reason why they're not giving John a book. I don't think it has anything to do with that, to be honest.

So, it comes down to you don't have any very strong argument to back a statement like there's "no excuse" why John Stewart doesn't have a book? It all just boils down to...I'm assuming...Dan DiDio and Geoff Johns? That line of thinking might have been more convincing if Green Lantern: Lost Army hadn't been greenlit, a book with John as the lead, which was published by Dan DiDio.

[Sodam Yat]

Well...clearly. Somebody must decide these things.

Well yes, of course.

Unless one of those variant themes was a smash success (the only one I'm really aware of is bombshells), this probably didn't impact Lost Army's sales that much. And even then, I don't think your argument is sound, because much of the sales would be attributed to a variant cover, not the adventures of the lead character, which is what should really be considered here.

It was just more proof that there was no effort here.

In my personal opinion, that particular complaint of yours is trifling.

I don't think it's considered trifling when you think about a company putting in efforts to establish a character.

Well, we can actually look at how the sales went using sites like Comichron. The book started out fairly tepid. Granted, all of DCYOU did. Then it finished up with numbers in the low 20,000 units. For a mainstream DC Comic, I'm not sure why someone would say sales are fine in a scenario like that.

But it wasn't in cancellation numbers, though.

This is another instance of you disregarding key factors to fit your narrative. DC published a bunch of Green Lantern titles when those Green Lantern titles were selling well!

I'm not really using anything to fit the narrative, though. Of course DC published Green Lantern titles that were selling and they also published Green Lantern titles when sales weren't meeting expectations. I don't see why you don't understand this here.

They were pretty darn close. It doesn't merely take being in cancellation numbers to get a book cancelled. If DC sees a book isn't selling as well as they want, they will sometimes, intelligently stop publishing that title to free up resources for something that will hopefully sell better. That's what happened in Lost Army's case.

Which was then replaced by Edge Of Oblivion and then back to Green Lantern Corps. DC still gave chances after chances. They didn't give up and decided to just quit. I'm sure there's going to be another new Green Lantern title coming. I don't know whether it's going to be soon or not. Probably after this whole DC crisis thing settles.

So, your argument is that because other characters have been given numerous chances after being cancelled due to low sales, DC should do this with John Stewart?

I don't see why that's the issue, though. Why is it so hard to believe for a fan like myself to give John Stewart a chance. They've taken risks with other characters, there's nothing wrong giving John Stewart a chance, whether it's a mini or ongoing.

Hmm. I think that's a whole other rabbit hole that I'm not sure I feel like going down. I will just say that the only time I can see such an odd tactic being intelligent is if you're planning something larger with the character, like a feature film, and you want trade paperbacks of their adventures around before your film/show/whatever hits. By the looks of things, there were no such plans for John Stewart, so employing this tactic would make little sense as I see it.

He's on the Justice League. Since John is going to be a part of this big epic DC event on what Scott Snyder is planning, it would be a good time to spread such event into a mini or ongoing so we can see John Stewart adventures. I don't think that would be a bad idea at all.

Omega Men was also way more critically acclaimed than any comic John has ever been a lead character in, aside from maybe Mosaic, and probably even then.

I think your arguments here are a poor excuse. First you speak about being unsure on sales about a John Stewart book, but now your changing it to critically acclaimed now!? DC should've let Lost Army run it's course and let Cullen Bunn tell the story that he wanted to tell. The editorial management that went on should've been way better than what we got.

So, it comes down to you don't have any very strong argument to back a statement like there's "no excuse" why John Stewart doesn't have a book? It all just boils down to...I'm assuming...Dan DiDio and Geoof Johns? That line of thinking might have been more convincing if Green Lantern: Lost Army hadn't been greenlit, a book with John as the lead, which was published by Dan DiDio.

I don't think there's no excuse on why John Stewart doesn't have a book. at all. period. If he's on the Justice League, then it's reasonable for him and Hawkgirl to have a book, especially if Scott Snyder is talking about having an event on a large scale for next year. I'm sure this is going to be like Rebirth or something, where DC is planning on reshaping the DCU. So that would be a good time for him to have a book. I don't see why not, to be honest.

[Sodam Yat]

This is what David Ramsey said about Arrow from cinemablend:

Yes. And Diggle's relationship with his own father as well. There will be loose ends tied up. The relationship between he and his sons, I think we're going to find out about. There's a lot in ten episodes we'll be finding out. And Lyla is a pivotal piece in these upcoming ten episodes. And then ultimately what happens with the Green Lantern mythos. I think all those are going to be answered in ten episodes.

So it looks like there's a possibility that he may be tied to the Green Lantern mythos and is John Stewart

[Johnny]

This is honestly so stupid. Diggle is an original character who even exists in the comic DCU as a separate character now, but because of a fan theory, they're going to basically retcon him into John Stewart in the last 10 episodes of the show? Now I get the argument that the more exposure the character gets the better, but I think it's a horrible form of storytelling to take one of your main characters and just retcon him into something else towards the end of the show. Smallville did the same thing with Jimmy Olsen where they decided to kill him off and revealed that he wasn't even the "real" Jimmy Olsen. Suddenly his name was revealed to be Henry James Olsen and the real Jimmy was his little brother that we never even knew existed until then.

[lemonpeace]

This is honestly so stupid. Diggle is an original character who even exist in the comic DCU as a separate character now, but because of a fan theory, they're going to basically retcon him into John Stewart in the last 10 episodes of the show? Now I get the argument that the more exposure the character gets the better, but I think it's a horrible form of storytelling to take one of your main characters and just retcon him into something else towards the end of the show. Smallville did the same thing with Jimmy Olsen where they decided to kill him off and revealed that he wasn't even the "real" Jimmy Olsen. Suddenly his name was revealed to be Henry James Olsen and the real Jimmy was his little brother that we never even knew existed until then.

I don't think they're going to make actual Diggle into John Stewart, I think they are setting up more easter eggs and references to make a stronger case for making him a Green Lantern on a different earth for Crisis; to justify using the same actor for a different (and fan favorite) character.

[Johnny]

I don't think they're going to make actual Diggle into John Stewart, I think they are setting up more easter eggs and references to make a stronger case for making him a Green Lantern on a different earth for Crisis; to justify using the same actor for a different (and fan favorite) character.

Yeah I get that, basically they would do what they did with Jay Garrick where John Wesley Shipp plays Barry's father in the main universe but he also plays Jay Garrick from a parallel universe. The maiden name of Barry's mother was also told to be Garrick at one point, so I get the whole easter egg thing, I'm just not a fan when they retcon characters or make their alternate counterparts to be characters from the comics when they could just cast separate actors and make the characters stand out on their own. I just don't understand the point to connect Diggle to John Stewart just because he happens to be a military man who's black and is named John. That's like bringing in Ted Kord and making him the Arrowverse version of Bruce Wayne just because he's a rich white guy with high-tech toys. Know what I mean?

[lemonpeace]

Yeah I get that, basically they would do what they did with Jay Garrick where John Wesley Shipp plays Barry's father in the main universe but he also plays Jay Garrick from a parallel universe. The maiden name of Barry's mother was also told to be Garrick at one point, so I get the whole easter egg thing, I'm just not a fan when they retcon characters or make their alternate counterparts to be characters from the comics when they could just cast separate actors and make the characters stand out on their own. I just don't understand the point to connect Diggle to John Stewart just because he happens to be a military man who's black and is named John. That's like bringing in Ted Kord and making him the Arrowverse version of Bruce Wayne just because he's a rich white guy with high-tech toys. Know what I mean?

it's cost effective, and the fact that it was a fan generated idea means it's a bond to be a guaranteed 'WOW' with the audience. couple that with the novelty of this being the first live action iterations of one of DC's biggest characters of color who's part of one of DC's most FX-necessary and potentially spectacle inducing franchises, drawing in curious eyes who want to see if it can be done, it's the kind of low risk high reward intertextual payoff that's perfect for the the Arrowverse and DC in general.

[Vampire Savior]

I think your arguments here are a poor excuse. First you speak about being unsure on sales about a John Stewart book, but now your changing it to critically acclaimed now!? DC should've let Lost Army run it's course and let Cullen Bunn tell the story that he wanted to tell. The editorial management that went on should've been way better than what we got.

It's not just "my argument." It's the actual reason the book was allowed to continue. People really, really loved it. DC probably realized they may have something that might end up being a classic on their hands, based on feedback, so they let it run its course. If Lost Army had such acclaim, which it did not, maybe it would have been allowed to continue despite its sales.

I don't see why that's the issue, though. Why is it so hard to believe for a fan like myself to give John Stewart a chance. They've taken risks with other characters, there's nothing wrong giving John Stewart a chance, whether it's a mini or ongoing.

Have you ever heard of insanity? The definition of it is to do the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result.
Again, DC will likely need to put big name talent on the book, otherwise they'll probably get a similar result as last time.

I don't think there's no excuse on why John Stewart doesn't have a book. at all. period. If he's on the Justice League, then it's reasonable for him and Hawkgirl to have a book, especially if Scott Snyder is talking about having an event on a large scale for next year. I'm sure this is going to be like Rebirth or something, where DC is planning on reshaping the DCU. So that would be a good time for him to have a book. I don't see why not, to be honest.

Probably because it won't sell all that well, which is the most greatest, ultimate excuse ever.

[Johnny]

Well, if Martian Manhunter can have a 12 issue maxi-series and Hawkman still has an ongoing title despite both being some of DC's lowest selling titles, then I don't see why characters like John Stewart and Hawkgirl can't at least have their own limited series. Same goes for a character like Guy Gardner.

[Sam]

This is honestly so stupid. Diggle is an original character who even exists in the comic DCU as a separate character now, but because of a fan theory, they're going to basically retcon him into John Stewart in the last 10 episodes of the show? Now I get the argument that the more exposure the character gets the better, but I think it's a horrible form of storytelling to take one of your main characters and just retcon him into something else towards the end of the show. Smallville did the same thing with Jimmy Olsen where they decided to kill him off and revealed that he wasn't even the "real" Jimmy Olsen. Suddenly his name was revealed to be Henry James Olsen and the real Jimmy was his little brother that we never even knew existed until then.

I definitely agree with this. John Diggle is his own original character, someone that was added to the Green Arrow mythos and joined his supporting cast in the comics. By making him John Stewart, they are kind of taking away from what they've added to Green Arrow. Plus, the more black male characters in the DC Universe the better.

[Anthony Shaw]

Some of the back and forth here is similar to a recent Titans' thread.

With the current state of DC, the folks in charge, and film ambiguity, being the JL Lantern with no solo in an event book is as good as it gets for John.

The lone GL book starring Hal, written by Grant, was not in the top 20 last month. What would Hal's numbers be without Grant? What happens when Grant eventually leave?

I'm not sure what John's chances would be at having a successful solo run in the current market.

[Vampire Savior]

Well, if Martian Manhunter can have a 12 issue maxi-series and Hawkman still has an ongoing title despite both being some of DC's lowest selling titles, then I don't see why characters like John Stewart and Hawkgirl can't at least have their own limited series. Same goes for a character like Guy Gardner.

Just because DC does something stupid (releasing a title with a lead character that has a history of not selling with a writer like Robert Venditti [seriously, what were they expecting to happen?]), doesn't mean they should do something else that is stupid because of that. Or, at the very least, it shouldn't be used as a reason to do something else that is stupid.

A John Stewart book shouldn't be attempted unless there is good reason to believe that book will actually sell. What some are suggesting will likely just result in a low selling book that will get cancelled anyway, and lower the character's equity. Look at Cyborg. Two clunker series in a row that didn't sell that DC was actually behind. It makes him look like a joke, especially since DC was trying to lead us to believe he actually mattered.

Then you guys will probably just shift your argument to something else, most likely blaming DC for something or other, without ever facing the truth that the character probably isn't going to draw huge numbers by himself today. He will require some supplementary boost of some sort.