Magnus Family Appreciation 2019

[Rivka]

Wanda Maximoff has never been and will never be given to the X-offices. Ever.

Do you work for Marvel? You know this for certain? Never say never. But no one is talking about, or even hinting at, a permanent switch of franchises. She and Pietro will be back as guests in the X-Men books if the House of M is restored. Or if there is a good, new story to tell that doesn't rehash (as MaximoffTrash said) a mutant extinction event, or center around the siblings shouting at Magneto about how bad he is and Magneto shouting back about how "ungrateful" his kids are. But I'm confident that sooner than later, the retcon will be overturned and Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch will be guesting in the X-Books again.

When it is public enough so that online articles report "Marvel politics" (i.e., Brevoort's obsession) is standing in the way of fixing the retcon, then I'm more confident than I used to be that someone will tell someone else to sit down and stop trying to destroy the Magnus Family. And before you answer with anger, recall this is the "Magnus Family Appreciation Thread" and that's what we are here to celebrate.

[powerpax]

Do you work for Marvel? You know this for certain? Never say never.

I'm pretty sure I can give up on winning the Super Bowl too. Guesting is always going to happen, sure. Given over to the X-office on a more permanent or semi-regular basis - no chance.

When it is public enough so that online articles report "Marvel politics" (i.e., Brevoort's obsession) is standing in the way of fixing the retcon, then I'm more confident than I used to be that someone will tell someone else to sit down and stop trying to destroy the Magnus Family.

It was Ike Perlmutter and the Fox rights issues that made that shitty retcon happen and then kept it in place. Brevoort is a lot of things but he is above all a company man. What the company dictates is the line that he follows. When Marvel chooses to make the Maximoff twins mutants and Magneto's again in the comics and they will, and IMO probably the films eventually too, he will not stand in the way of that or anything else. He can't. So I think we're actually both saying a lot of the same things here, really.

And before you answer with anger, recall this is the "Magnus Family Appreciation Thread" and that's what we are here to celebrate.

I'm not angry at all. But the suggestion that nothing can change here or Lorna can't be featured in future because of Tom Brevoort's seven year old Formspring posts is not celebrating anything.

[salarta]

The family has always been split editorially and probably always will be. But Wanda has always been the central priority among the children and has always been and will always be Avengers property.

I've said it before, but I really don't think Marvel higher-ups these days give enough of a **** about Lorna to sit around actively plotting to keep her out of events. She has just always been C-list and often an afterthought going back decades, it's that simple. I'm not saying that's right, but it is learned behavior. The truth is usually far more banal and less vindictive. As for The Gifted, frankly IMO it is another cosplay-level network TV superhero show that is not a good showcase for anyone. It may have a fanbase, that's fine, but in the eyes of the larger public it was poorly received and reviewed and quickly forgotten about. It is not the key to making Lorna a success. A strong showing in the new line, or if she happens to be used in the MCU, would be.

I know how Tom Brevoort can be, believe me. But that was also seven years ago, and I don't believe Brevoort is waving a scepter around micromanaging the X-Men or Jonathan Hickman these days. I just don't. His role is different, the company is different, Hickman is different.

Not necessarily. They take cues from a lot of recent material when it's popular (DnA/GOTG, Carol/CM, Jane Foster/Love & Thunder, Planet Hulk/Ragnarok, etc), and the X-Men are now 'home' and getting a big push again. I would not be at all surprised to see the future X-films based around a mesh of Claremont, Hickman, etc. and that's where use of Lorna or anyone else becomes newly relevant. It's DC where the books are now wholly irrelevant to their messy company.

I'm not angry at all. But the suggestion that nothing can change here or Lorna can't be featured in future because of Tom Brevoort's seven year old Formspring posts is not celebrating anything.

I'm tired, so all I'm gonna say is that it's learned behavior that plays out subconsciously into intentional acts. They know they dislike her, they refuse to question why, and they follow their "instinct" that tells them to ignore fair play and common sense. Even if Brevoort does not have such power, he's representative of a broader cultural problem. You don't get to the position he has, with the attitudes he's held, unless what he puts forth is accepted or encouraged.

So far, I don't see how Hickman is different. Everything I've seen looks status quo to me.

It's not that Lorna "can't" be featured in the future, but that getting her there is an uphill battle with a proven track record of obstacles within Marvel itself that must be overcome. I increasingly believe her future is in the fandom, not Marvel. Marvel doesn't love her. Fans do. And fans will make her future while Marvel's too busy remaining ignorant.

[powerpax]

Even if Brevoort does not have such power, he's representative of a broader cultural problem. You don't get to the position he has, with the attitudes he's held, unless what he puts forth is accepted or encouraged.

But there's no evidence that Brevoort's POV is currently in play at the X-office.

So far, I don't see how Hickman is different. Everything I've seen looks status quo to me.

In what way?

I increasingly believe her future is in the fandom, not Marvel. Marvel doesn't love her. Fans do. And fans will make her future while Marvel's too busy remaining ignorant.

No, they won't, because they have no ability to make that happen. So they're going to have to do that by supporting her in what Marvel promotes and is invested in or not at all. And that means either the films or the current major line which is heavily invested in for the first time in almost twenty years. That's just facts. Everything else is just tweets from fans asking why she isn't featured.

[Rivka]

Given long term no.

Though I am saying what I think should have happened in regard to her rehabilitation. It should have been shared with the x-office being allowed a storyline that deals with the Decimation fallout and the Avengers office focusing on the fallout from her wiping out the old Avengers.

What should have been and what happened are two different things where the Avengers line controlled it all and insulted our intelligence with a contrived retcon Doom was the mastermind behind it all x-fans all but ignored. I personally suspect if their parentage is restored the big question is down to who controls the story the Avengers office and Brevoort. Who by the way detests Lorna's parentage and make that publicly known many times and outright ignores it in Avengers books or the x-office? I don't understand why they can't share honestly. Its not lose-win or win-lose its a win-win situation for both lines. No one line should control the family though.

Because he's obsessed with cutting off Magneto's humanity, complexity, and history. Brevoort is Ahab and Magneto is his white whale. The only reason we haven't been treated to more recent posts about Magneto, Lorna, and the twins is that Marvel suggested Brevoort stop all the gaslighting, curtail the tumblr posts, and get things under control. But he hasn't changed his opinions.

Wouldn't it be fantastic if Brevoort could accept Magneto's Jewish identity, and Wanda and Pietro's mixed heritage and complex relationship with Magneto their father, and Lorna as Magneto's daughter and be like, "Hey sure, you want to borrow Wanda for a story or two, or guest star Quicksilver for a few comics, or Luna, Wiccan, and Speed for that matter, sure, that's cool. Just like I borrow X-Men characters ALL THE TIME and hold on to them for years (i.e. Rogue, Havok). And "Hey, sure, you want to bring Aunt Lorna into a story with Crystal and Luna in a FANTASTIC FOUR or GUARDIANS comic, let's work that out, what a great idea to touch on these family relationships." I know this might be too much to hope for, but we can dream.

[powerpax]

I never said he was, but I will say if he controls the family stories to come once the retcon is down and the X-Men are cut out of it then I believe Lorna will be kept out.

If he is, sure, that's possible. But I just think assuming the worst isn't productive when there is no evidence Brevoort is reigning supreme at the moment over the X-Men or its connections.

As a poster I like some of your ideas, but I also think your style is too come on too strong. How about a nice discussion instead of a confrontation.

I get that. And I can be blunt. But that's because I sometimes think we miss the forest for the trees if we create a narrative where everything is stacked against us BTS and the only way to get something for a favorite character is to circumvent the company. The honest truth is there is no circumventing the company to make these things happen, it either will or won't based on a dozen factors. For me, I take heart (for many reasons not related to Magneto's family) that Tom Brevoort seems to be presently at his least relevant in a number of years. I see a lot of fresh change in the X-office and in Marvel's larger media priorities per the X-Men, and that's enough to take heart in for me right now. That's also the way forward for all of these characters. It will either happen, or not.

[salarta]

In what way?

I don't really want to go into this, at least here. It's a tangent, it's not a receptive environment, etc.

No, they won't, because they have no ability to make that happen. So they're going to have to do that by supporting her in what Marvel promotes and is invested in or not at all. And that means either the films or the current major line which is heavily invested in for the first time in almost twenty years. That's just facts. Everything else is just tweets from fans asking why she isn't featured.

Fans have more power than can be fathomed. There's a reason interest in the family, particularly Lorna and Wanda as sisters, persists despite Marvel's efforts to alternately ignore and kill it. Marvel may own the rights, but they don't own fandom. And the things that really, truly matter slip through Marvel's fingers constantly.

[jmc247]

I get that. And I can be blunt. But that's because I sometimes think we miss the forest for the trees if we create a narrative where everything is stacked against us BTS and the only way to get something for a favorite character is to circumvent the company. The honest truth is there is no circumventing the company to make these things happen, it either will or won't based on a dozen factors

Separate companies hold the rights to games and many straight up do effectively ask for audience input on their rosters. The last campaign Lorna fans on CBR had was to get Lorna into Marvel Legos which has been played by tens of millions of kids around the world and it worked. I will say that fans matter and yes interest in Wanda and Lorna as sisters has been stratospheric on the major social media organs. That has helped to keep Magnus family fandom alive these years since the retcon.

Now with Hickman its really down to how he regards Lorna. He seems to love morally ambiguous characters in general. Monet, Sabretooth, Mystique Apocalypses, and certainly Emma and Magneto even Emma's clones are playing a real role in part because I think he liked them from the TV show you constantly put down. Don't get me wrong season 2 was terrible, but Lorna had some really great moments in the first season that won her millions of fans globally. Polaris is up there with the most popular MCU movie characters in China (the largest market on Earth) as they loved the honorable rebel motif.

Back to Hickman I think if he regards Lorna in more of her post Genoshan genocide persona and philosophy she is in for great things ahead under his pen. If its her 80s or 90s persona not so much.

[Rivka]

But there's no evidence that Brevoort's POV is currently in play at the X-office.

When someone sits in the same job for 25 years, they learn ALL KINDS of ways to exert control and influence; that's what people have told me are essentially "Marvel office politics." But I hope you are correct. I really hope you're right.

And I could be wrong about Brevoort. All I know is that when the Axis retcon first happened, I immediately said it was Brevoort's doing, and he went way above and beyond what was necessary, and I and other's challenged him on his now slumbering Tumblr and he white-Christian-man-splained to us how wonderful it was that Wanda was a "real Gypsy" now, and it was better that her parents "matched." (This after interacting with him online for 23 years, exchanging posts, emails, etc.--always polite but his opinions about Magneto and other Jewish characters were clear, so it wasn't a stretch for me to blame him for the retcon.)

Then news came out about how the X-Men were being suppressed, that the Marvel CEO and I guess Marvel Studios as well, wanted the twins--who were in the MCU--cut off from the X-Books in the comics, and I thought that well, maybe this idiotic retcon was ordered from above and maybe Brevoort didn't have much to do with it.

But recently I've been reading accounts that said, no, the full extent of the retcon, the refusal to reconsider it even after Disney bought back the X-MEN movie-rights along with FOX properties, it was Brevoort after-all.

He's VP of publishing, he's been there 25 years, if he's digging in and refuses to budge on this matter, only a direct order from the EinC, the President and above will get him to move. And if he's REALLY adamant and angry, I can't see the EinC pushing him too hard. I was told by a former Marvel employee that the EinC can't fight about every important issue, he has to choose when to negotiate and when to push.

[MaximoffTrash]

I've got it. Lorna and Pietro are Magneto's kids but Wanda isn't, Lorna and Wanda are sisters, and Wanda and Pietro are twins. Everybody wins!~

It could be messy, the simple solution is just make Wanda the indifferent one when restoring their family ties. Honestly it would make them more distinct that way.

[powerpax]

But recently I've been reading accounts that said, no, the full extent of the retcon, the refusal to reconsider it even after Disney bought back the X-MEN movie-rights along with FOX properties, it was Brevoort after-all.

Accounts from where? Also, it really hasn't been that long since then. These things don't snap back in place across the company overnight, in terms of creative retcons.

I understand all too well having antipathy towards Tom Brevoort. But I've never seen a single thing that would make me credibly believe that Brevoort cares about anything above his career and the company directives. That's not how corporate tends to work. Who the Scarlet Witch or Quicksilver's daddy is is really not relevant at that level, and he is now removed considerably from the scheme of things. (It's also not the Jim Shooter days anymore.) Ike Perlmutter, OTOH, was both much more vindictive and considerably more powerful. He is the reason that retcon happened. Brevoort is just a jerk.

[powerpax]

I don't really want to go into this, at least here. It's a tangent, it's not a receptive environment, etc.

Okay, but if you can't back up a statement I have nothing to take into consideration. Just making veiled hints towards your feelings is neither subtle nor effective.

Fans have more power than can be fathomed.

Only when they utilize the viable avenues to effect change. Because failing to support seeing more of Lorna in Dawn of X or the MCU is not going to get her utilized anywhere else, tbh. It will in fact do the exact opposite.

[salarta]

Only when they utilize the viable avenues to effect change. Because failing to support seeing more of Lorna in Dawn of X or the MCU is not going to get her utilized anywhere else, tbh. It will in fact do the exact opposite.

The long road takes many unexpected winding paths. Something that looks like a boon today can be a bane tomorrow, and vice versa. I'm placing my bets on her soul and what it really offers to the people who need her.

I am not opposed to her in the MCU. Currently, I would welcome it - and if handled right, would give me a reason to engage in it for the first time since before Age of Ultron (when the forced retcon came down; Black Panther being the only exception to date). DoX is a different story. Unless something changes to change my mind.

And as always, I'm simply me. Other fans may feel differently.

[powerpax]

DoX is a different story. Unless something changes to change my mind.

And as always, I'm simply me. Other fans may feel differently.

Okay, but understand: This is the first major A-List investment in the X-Men franchise in almost twenty years. Its stories will likely have an impact on the X-Men in the MCU. If you're saying Polaris should not be a part of that, you're basically saying Polaris should stay exactly where she is for years to come. To me, as a fan of the character, it's a no-brainer. YMMV.

[salarta]

Okay, but understand: This is the first major A-List investment in the X-Men franchise in almost twenty years. Its stories will likely have an impact on the X-Men in the MCU. If you're saying Polaris should not be a part of that, you're basically saying Polaris should stay exactly where she is for years to come. To me, as a fan of the character, it's a no-brainer. YMMV.

This only holds true if, at the end of the road, the location reached is better than one that could have been reached by waiting for another path to open. The Killing Joke has words, and few of them worth repeating - something I say having read and at the time enjoyed it roughly a decade and a half ago.