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  1. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post


    There is a lot of overlap between Magneto fans (more of the modern generation then the older generation though some of the old) and Polaris fans. Though it will be interesting to see if Marvel can find a way of allowing them to work together without it becoming building one up to tear the other down and having their voices each reflect their histories. Well, Hickman's first shot at that comes in October in X-Men #1.



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    Seems Summers heavy...hopefully that doesnt last.

  2. #782
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichelleDiMera View Post
    Seems Summers heavy...hopefully that doesnt last.
    Here is the preview art. Heavy with Scott and Storm and Scott and Xavier. It seems that they are going up against some foe. Lorna and Magneto will be in it somewhere Hickman said. I am hoping for at least one nice variant cover to pick up that isn't related to the Summers.
    Last edited by jmc247; 09-09-2019 at 05:36 PM.

  3. #783
    Ultimate Member juan678's Avatar
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    art by Leandro Matos
    Last edited by juan678; 09-11-2019 at 03:50 AM.

  4. #784
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    I will say the covers out the past two months have been highly illuminating. Some characters are clearly promoted as A list protagonists and antagonists. Phoenix/Jean, Emma, and Magneto among others. Mystique is promoted as an A list antagonist and B list X-Men protagonist.

    Lorna is promoted as I would say D lister as far as covers are concerned, not an important enough character to warrant anything other then being added in with the D, F and Z listers in the every mutant ever cover. In terms of actual presence inside comics and importance she is treated closer to a C lister to date given her name at least appeared in PoX.

    But, that is a huge decline from the early to mid 2000s when she was regarded and merchandised as a B list X-Man and B list antagonist.

    We will find out soon enough if Hickman and co. can return Lorna to at least the status she was at 15 years ago. I obviously don't think its an either/or question in term of Lorna being promoted as a protagonist or antagonist given both is fine for quite a few other characters including her father and being both was fine for promoting her as such 15-20 years ago.
    Last edited by jmc247; 09-12-2019 at 11:21 AM.

  5. #785

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    I mean, Hickman’s plans to date are the exact wrong way. So it’s no shocker to me that Lorna’s not present. And I still think that in general, it’ll be a blessing in disguise, only apparent as such with time.

    I’ve said before that Marvel is perpetually 3-4 years behind the times. Part of Lorna’s problem is that she’s the future, stuck at a company that’s held back by its past. They can’t see her value because they can’t see ahead. They just tweak what they’ve seen before.
    Last edited by salarta; 09-12-2019 at 12:04 PM.
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  6. #786
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    I mean, Hickman’s plans to date are the exact wrong way.
    Please elaborate.

  7. #787
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    We will find out soon enough if Hickman and co. can return Lorna to at least the status she was at 15 years ago. I obviously don't think its an either/or question in term of Lorna being promoted as a protagonist or antagonist given both is fine for quite a few other characters including her father and being both was fine for promoting her as such 15-20 years ago.
    We differ on this. Even on Chuck Austen's cursed run - which was mocked by fans while it was still running - Lorna was one of a cast of like a dozen or more X-Men, and was treated like Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction in it for much of the time. She was not B-list then, AFAIC, largely because the book itself was openly derided and dismissed. I've been waiting for Lorna to even approach the B-list for the better part of three decades, lol. I don't think she's ever been there except for some of '90s X-Factor and maybe Brubaker's run, but I didn't like Brubaker's run.
    Last edited by powerpax; 09-12-2019 at 02:27 PM.

  8. #788
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    A or A+ list I would only extend to a select few; Jean/Phoenix, Magneto, Storm, Deadpool, Wolverine and Scott.
    A- list is quite a bit wider and arguably would include Emma and quite a few other Claremont or 05 X-Men.
    B list or at least bottom of the B list is a bit like pornography I know it when I see it.

    Making at least B- Lorna has done in my view at various moments in her history.

    1968-1970, 1992-1993, and late 2002 to 2007 Lorna was bottom of the B list list in my definition of the term. Some of the writers like Bru and Milligan I had huge issues with, but I am not rating how much I love or hate runs with her I am rating her visibility at a given moment. Comic covers, merchandise, appearances in crossovers, etc.



    Lorna's 1999-2000 The Twelve and then Genosha arc she was probably C+ list. One could make an argument for B-, but I don't quite see it. In this case her being too much in the background on Genosha during the various events including Eve of Destruction hurt.
    Last edited by jmc247; 09-12-2019 at 02:53 PM.

  9. #789
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    She was visible at the time, yes, but the issue is that outside of Morrison's run, that UXM run by Austen was just derided and, at the time, considered the also-ran opposite GM. It was a mess and she was played as the crazy. People didn't really rank that book at all.

    Similarly, Brubaker's book was clearly a storage house early on for characters editorial did not feel were relevant. And some, like Lorna, didn't even come back from space for awhile. To me, at that time and in those eras, the key issue is there wasn't really a more diverse strata of characters and tiers of importance. There was the A and B-List and then there was everyone else. Lorna was absolutely the latter.
    Last edited by powerpax; 09-12-2019 at 02:53 PM.

  10. #790
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    Visibility at the time and how much critics love the run in question are two separate things. One can complain about Austen all you want, but he sold consistently slightly under 100K comics each month which is why he was around so long. Readership, plus covers, plus merchandise, plus appearances is how I rate a characters alphabet listing visa via other characters at a moment.

    Lorna started out the space arc the bottom of the B list because she was on the flagship title with the occasional appearance. After that her listing cratered because she was dropped off in space for the next four years away from the core of what the X-Men were doing. None of what I said has anything to do with my feelings about a given writer.

    Look I am not ragging on your man Hickman. I also am buying his comics and for the most part like his story. I don't blame Hickman at all for choosing the covers that is the artist and x-editorial. The writer doesn't spend his days picking characters on various variant covers, that is not how the business works its usually between the editors and assistants and artists. Hickman might have great plans ahead for Lorna I don't know nor will I prejudge based on covers his plans.

    I wouldn't be a fan of Lorna if it wasn't for Austen's run with her I will just let you know that. Lorna was broken by the genocide, her nervous system damaged (Claremont set up that in regards to what it means for EM manipulators) her being obsessed with Havok in a not healthy way predated Austen because she didn't have many relationships. What she went through tossed her mind into chaos, he was all she had left in her mind and she had a journey of her healing over time. Storyline wise I blame Milligan for over doing the instability card after she had started healing. Then Brubaker for returning her to passive green haired Jean and dumping her in space.

    But, who I feel did well or poorly with her has nothing to do with what I feel was her overall her visibility at a given time. How many comics a writer sold at a given time matters in this regard more then how many positive reviews of the comic from reviewers.
    Last edited by jmc247; 09-12-2019 at 04:18 PM.

  11. #791
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    I'm not talking about Hickman, lol. I'm just saying, in the eyes of the readership at that time (early-mid 2000s) there was Morrison and Whedon and then there was everything else. Austen's Uncanny simply didn't rate, and Polaris certainly didn't. That is JMO. She was an afterthought in the X-office at that time, even when she was allegedly featured. That is not me gauging those runs' quality - that is the larger perception that existed among readers. The Uncanny runs with Austen and Milligan sold only because they were associated with the X-name coming off a flush period for X-Men with Morrison and Whedon. That's all. That is not a quality or critic determination, that is a branding factor.

    I wouldn't be a fan of Lorna if it wasn't for Austen's run with her I will just let you know that. Lorna was broken by the genocide, that was the point, her being obsessed with Havok in a not healthy way predated Austen but what she went through tossed her mind into chaos, he was all she had left in her mind and she had a journey of her healing over time. Storyline wise I blame Milligan for over doing things after she had started healing. Then Brubaker for returning her to passive green haired Jean and dumping her in space.
    I won't argue with you that Brubaker regressed her, because I think he did. But I also think Austen and Milligan were bad for the character and my interest in Polaris pre-dates them completely.

  12. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    I won't argue with you that Brubaker regressed her, because I think he did. But I also think Austen and Milligan were bad for the character and my interest in Polaris pre-dates them completely.
    If you want to debate if a run was good or bad for her I will agree to debate that and that is what this debate has seemingly devolved into. But, how high profile a character is at a moment isn't quite that.

    Long term I would agree gatekeeping reviewers direct fans towards certain runs or away from certain runs, but that has little to do with what is selling at a given time.

    You don't get made into an animated series episode if you didn't do something right. Regardless of what anyone says New X-Men 132 by Morrison and Uncanny X-Men 443 by Austen were merged into a really solid animated series episode called The Badlands. I understand full well comic book fanboy culture and them shunning certain runs and promoting others, but regardless no set of ideas for Lorna in the 616 have yet to surmount those came up with in the Austen/Morrison era.
    Last edited by jmc247; 09-12-2019 at 04:19 PM.

  13. #793

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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Please elaborate.
    Why? No disrespect intended. I feel I've said my views enough, I don't feel I need to prove myself or argue about it, there's no real urgency or need to in this case, and the environment on here isn't conducive anyway. At this point I'm just content to let it play out the way it's going to.


    As far as "lists" go. Like the whole omega system, it's outdated and needs to be abolished. But pretending they should stay for a moment, Lorna's a character who's supposed to be an "A-lister" but Marvel's obsessed with treating her like a "D-lister" or lower. Their attitude toward her is symptomatic of issues with their internal culture of how they see and treat characters as a whole. When you have a character with all the traits, signs and interest she's exhibited over the years (especially the past two years) and you still do almost nothing with her (in fact, LESS than before - she had her origin story told and led ANXF before 2017), the problem isn't the character.

    Though admittedly, I'd almost never say the problem is the character; worst case scenario, problem would be how the character is being used.
    Last edited by salarta; 09-12-2019 at 05:07 PM.
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  14. #794

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    In other news, since this is the Magnus family thread, there's a claim spreading that Marvel Studios is planning to make Prof X and Magneto into PoC for the X-Men film reboot.

    This would fit pretty well on the Magneto family end. There's been an increasing number of people who fanon the family as black and draw fanart of it.




    I commissioned bikenesmith earlier this year for multiple PoC (Polarises of Color; using the wordplay he came up with) of Lorna to further support this diversity.



    There's most definitely a fanbase ready and eager for it on the Magneto side.
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  15. #795
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    Why? No disrespect intended. I feel I've said my views enough, I don't feel I need to prove myself or argue about it, there's no real urgency or need to in this case, and the environment on here isn't conducive anyway. At this point I'm just content to let it play out the way it's going to.
    But you haven't, because you have to tell any of us what you specifically think Hickman is doing wrong. You are just vaguely hinting around it and then say you mustn't say too much for fear of an argument. I don't know what you mean, so I am honestly asking you.

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