Magnus Family Appreciation 2019

[Coatl]

Redemption stories only work if the character's actions came from character flaws, because the narrative is driven by the character working on said flaws and trying improve themselves. What would Wanda be trying to "fix"? Going crazy? Getting possessed? This is why attempts to "redeem" her by focusing on what she did have proven futile.
The only way to salvage this mess is write Wanda as if none of this ever happened. A new defining story would also help a great deal.

Well my point is that I actually think tha Wanda has flaws that she should try to correct herself, and yes the “going crazy” too often and affecting everybody, plays a role on it, and even after the HoM incident she also provoked two events she really should work in her self control, her mental stability and in don’t abusing her Powers for starters. There is also how she could improve her management of the guilt since as I have said acting annoyed when confronted when the damage she caused doesn't help. I hope that at least the "I want my babies back and doesn't matter how" get forgotten because If the Doom version is going to be believed, she is at least responsible to play a very dangerous game with a know villain and manipulator for personal gain, who backfired, and if not she just pinned all the blame in an easy target to not fase consequences. But again that's just IMO. I also thought that the I want my babies back was a lazy writing since has been stated that Wiccan and speed are in some way her sons.

[jmc247]

You could tell on instagram that Emma did not like Lorna being weaker so they could push the Struckers and Reeva more. It irritated her but she wasnt unprofessional about it. I wrote to her on Twitter about the flip flop from season 1 to season 2. It just makes my skin crawl how excellent season 1 ended for Lorna and she had to be pushed down to allow less interesting characters to get screen time.

She most certainly promoted the show and Lorna this season. A pretty good interview on that where she plugs Wanda as one of her favorite characters when she was younger, but she was obviously limited by thinking they were writing an entirely different character this season and one she really doesn’t understand or identify with or like really. I understand as I couldn’t stand what they turned her into either, they did completely reinvent the character.

But, some of her season one stories will stand out long term. Her change into Polaris in prison and adopting the moniker of her mutant identity was key to what gave the TV storyline it’s iconic power.

[Saffron]

Well my point is that I actually think tha Wanda has flaws that she should try to correct herself, and yes the “going crazy” too often and affecting everybody, plays a role on it, and even after the HoM incident she also provoked two events she really should work in her self control, her mental stability and in don’t abusing her Powers for starters. There is also how she could improve her management of the guilt since as I have said acting annoyed when confronted when the damage she caused doesn't help. I hope that at least the "I want my babies back and doesn't matter how" get forgotten because If the Doom version is going to be believed, she is at least responsible to play a very dangerous game with a know villain and manipulator for personal gain, who backfired, and if not she just pinned all the blame in an easy target to not fase consequences. But again that's just IMO. I also thought that the I want my babies back was a lazy writing since has been stated that Wiccan and speed are in some way her sons.

Yeah... there are real problems with viewing mental illness as a flaw that needs to be "fixed". What I actually mean is realistic personality flaws, like jealousy or prejudice. If Wanda had created HoM and wiped out mutants because she hated mutants or something, she could easily be rehabilitated by realizing her wrongs and changing her views. But Wanda's actions stemmed from either going baby crazy (because that's how women just are, apparently) or being possessed - neither of which can offer satisfying character growth.

And yes, I know Wanda sought power but (a) Doom is like Magneto in that his villain status changes with context, as all major Marvel villains seem to do. He's been a trusted ally many times in comics history (b) it's still an example of baby crazy, albeit in a milder form, which (c) is impossible to craft a proper redemption arc for without creating an offensive story about how irrational women are. Even if you don't care about that subtext, it wouldn't create a sympathetic character because they don't have a relatable flaw to overcome.

Actually looking back at Children's Crusade, there were several issues of Wanda apologizing and taking responsibility in just about every panel she appears, possession or no. She literally says "I take full responsibility", and this is repeated several times, just in case the reader missed it. This is exactly what you're asking for, yet those panels go unacknowledged by everyone still wanting to see Wanda humbled. This backs up my argument that a classic redemption arc isn't viable in this situation.

[Coatl]

Yeah... there are real problems with viewing mental illness as a flaw that needs to be "fixed". What I actually mean is realistic personality flaws, like jealousy or prejudice. If Wanda had created HoM and wiped out mutants because she hated mutants or something, she could easily be rehabilitated by realizing her wrongs and changing her views. But Wanda's actions stemmed from either going baby crazy (because that's how women just are, apparently) or being possessed - neither of which can offer satisfying character growth.

Well, I don't wanted to extend me a lot into a theme so talked, but yes, she had her own flaws, that never gets called out. I just talked about "getting crazy/possessed" with relative frequency as one of them. I don't think that being ill is bad, but if you know that your illness kills people, doesn't should be the correct action seeking help to overcome the "illness"?
About her reasons to wipe the X-gen, was just to spite on Magneto, because she was blaming him about being messed up adults, that's the first problem, they never were aware of the relationship until adulthood (and still then they never get to pass a lot of time as family) so there is not reason to blame him about her own decisions on life and the consequences. Second, the rest of the mutants weren't guilty. She just hurt them to hurt her father by proximity, and that's something terrible to do. Let's not talk about killing his Avengers friends in sadistic ways to "make them suffer" because she lost her sons, for her own decisions. So we can see a patron here, about she pinning the blame in others to avoid facing her own decisions, and a sadistic and vengeful streak around people who can or can't deserve it.

And yes, I know Wanda sought power but (a) Doom is like Magneto in that his villain status changes with context, as all major Marvel villains seem to do. He's been a trusted ally many times in comics history (b) it's still an example of baby crazy, albeit in a milder form, which (c) is impossible to craft a proper redemption arc for without creating an offensive story about how irrational women are. Even if you don't care about that subtext, it wouldn't create a sympathetic character because they don't have a relatable flaw to overcome.

Just that making pact to Doom is not as making pacts to Magneto, is more like making pacts to Mephisto, you just know that he is not selfless, he is going to take advantage, all those examples of people trusting Doom, never had a happy end. Seeking his help to get back soons that she already had (Billy and Tommy are alive just in teenage bodies) was naive and selfish in the best case. So she shows real flaws not just a "she is a woman".

Actually looking back at Children's Crusade, there were several issues of Wanda apologizing and taking responsibility in just about every panel she appears, possession or no. She literally says "I take full responsibility", and this is repeated several times, just in case the reader missed it. This is exactly what you're asking for, yet those panels go unacknowledged by everyone still wanting to see Wanda humbled. This backs up my argument that a classic redemption arc isn't viable in this situation.

Just to by the end of the issue getting exonerated of all guilt by pinning the blame in Doom and start acting annoyed every time that someone was so mean to talk about the topic again.

As I have stated we have seen a great arc of consequences in Pietro, who was guilt of making a suggestion (while not in the best mental state himself), while Wanda was the one who make the issue real. Still Pietro took the full guilt for the whole issue, and faced the consequences, yes he has his flaws (as Wanda has) but they were not related to the HoM arc, this arc is not about how proud and hostile he was (and still is because the arc wasn't about him changing his character) but about him owning his mistake, trying to make amends, apologizing and facing consequences. This gets even harder when Wanda herself blames him and labeled as a psychopath. So I think that Wanda should have had her own arc instead of an easy excuse.

Maturity, responsibility, stop pinning the blame in others (father, brother, lover), stop looking for an easy and quick way get away and instead accept that she has to earn the trust that she lost, look for a way to control her powers, to make her mind stronger, stop thinking that she has right to take decisions for others, control her temper to avoid lashing against innocent people, get over the "I want babies" stuff and maybe spend some time with her somewhat twins. All those would have been interesting points to call around Wanda.

[salarta]

Yeah... there are real problems with viewing mental illness as a flaw that needs to be "fixed". What I actually mean is realistic personality flaws, like jealousy or prejudice. If Wanda had created HoM and wiped out mutants because she hated mutants or something, she could easily be rehabilitated by realizing her wrongs and changing her views. But Wanda's actions stemmed from either going baby crazy (because that's how women just are, apparently) or being possessed - neither of which can offer satisfying character growth.

And yes, I know Wanda sought power but (a) Doom is like Magneto in that his villain status changes with context, as all major Marvel villains seem to do. He's been a trusted ally many times in comics history (b) it's still an example of baby crazy, albeit in a milder form, which (c) is impossible to craft a proper redemption arc for without creating an offensive story about how irrational women are. Even if you don't care about that subtext, it wouldn't create a sympathetic character because they don't have a relatable flaw to overcome.

Actually looking back at Children's Crusade, there were several issues of Wanda apologizing and taking responsibility in just about every panel she appears, possession or no. She literally says "I take full responsibility", and this is repeated several times, just in case the reader missed it. This is exactly what you're asking for, yet those panels go unacknowledged by everyone still wanting to see Wanda humbled. This backs up my argument that a classic redemption arc isn't viable in this situation.

So a few thoughts.

All the reasons behind "why Wanda did it" to explain it up to this point that I've seen suck. They all feel like someone trying to make excuses instead of actually digging deep into her character and formulating an explanation that makes sense. I've talked many times about how I'd like to see the periods where Lorna was worst written revisited but to massively overhaul and rewrite how things went down to make them more understandable and sympathetic. Like just as a hypothetical example, all the garbage depictions of Lorna doing things like wishing Havok would save her from Sabretooth or crying in his arm saying she should go to jail for actions done as Pestilence could be explained as Lorna trying to force herself to be someone she isn't to "fit in" after a life of having to hide who she is (e.g. dyeing her hair brown to hide the green). Which is something I don't want to see attempted until a long time apart from Havok, but I digress. The same could apply to Wanda. Rework and reorient using actual character psychology and history as a reasonable basis.

Wanda repeatedly apologizing and taking responsibility, including literally saying it, isn't sufficient. The writing concept is show, don't tell. Words are empty. She needs actions. This is where Wanda serving on an X-Men team would actually be beneficial for her. She'd be ground level steeped in mutant issues, making a direct and active effort to help the community she (by whatever explanation) decimated. In anything needing catharsis and forgiveness, an essential part of reaching that point is knowing the "guilty" party understands things from the POV of who they've hurt and is willing to put in the hard work of making amends. We haven't been shown that with Wanda, only told, with Marvel expecting that to be enough to move on.

And frankly, this is where I think people working at Marvel are the problem. Every single thing I've seen covering Wanda and Decimation (since 2009) was an Avengers book or event. That includes Avengers vs X-Men, which was blatantly made to boost the Avengers books and hinder the X-Men books. Uncanny Avengers even managed to yank X-Men characters from the X-Men franchise to horribly misrepresent them and mutant affairs. And the one time an X-book had a chance to address this, when Wanda and Lorna spent time together on All-New X-Factor #14, it wasn't touched on at all. Just a brief line showing they should have addressed it, right before Danger suggests a fair and Lorna inexplicably goes from "Decimation made my life hellish" to "whatevs yo, let's party!" Because Avengers editorial clearly hated the idea of giving up total control of Wanda and their Decimation narrative for even one millisecond.

Marvel has a bad habit of ignoring what its audience actually wants and needs in favor of doing whatever they want and trying to force its audience to accept it.

[MichelleDiMera]

The Bendis reasoning for Wanda snapping..using the discovery of her not knowing she had kids was a weak crutch to vilify Wanda.

In Children's Crudasde, somehow the vilification escapes Pietro and somehow bleeds to Doom of all people. I was ready for the curveballs of her actually marrying Doom and staying in Latveria. Would of been a unique twist for such a long time heroine to be with the top villain. But they again got weak and just had Doom dismiss everyone and did a cute little reset for Wanda.

[MaximoffTrash]

So a few thoughts.

All the reasons behind "why Wanda did it" to explain it up to this point that I've seen suck. They all feel like someone trying to make excuses instead of actually digging deep into her character and formulating an explanation that makes sense. I've talked many times about how I'd like to see the periods where Lorna was worst written revisited but to massively overhaul and rewrite how things went down to make them more understandable and sympathetic. Like just as a hypothetical example, all the garbage depictions of Lorna doing things like wishing Havok would save her from Sabretooth or crying in his arm saying she should go to jail for actions done as Pestilence could be explained as Lorna trying to force herself to be someone she isn't to "fit in" after a life of having to hide who she is (e.g. dyeing her hair brown to hide the green). Which is something I don't want to see attempted until a long time apart from Havok, but I digress. The same could apply to Wanda. Rework and reorient using actual character psychology and history as a reasonable basis.

Wanda repeatedly apologizing and taking responsibility, including literally saying it, isn't sufficient. The writing concept is show, don't tell. Words are empty. She needs actions. This is where Wanda serving on an X-Men team would actually be beneficial for her. She'd be ground level steeped in mutant issues, making a direct and active effort to help the community she (by whatever explanation) decimated. In anything needing catharsis and forgiveness, an essential part of reaching that point is knowing the "guilty" party understands things from the POV of who they've hurt and is willing to put in the hard work of making amends. We haven't been shown that with Wanda, only told, with Marvel expecting that to be enough to move on.

And frankly, this is where I think people working at Marvel are the problem. Every single thing I've seen covering Wanda and Decimation (since 2009) was an Avengers book or event. That includes Avengers vs X-Men, which was blatantly made to boost the Avengers books and hinder the X-Men books. Uncanny Avengers even managed to yank X-Men characters from the X-Men franchise to horribly misrepresent them and mutant affairs. And the one time an X-book had a chance to address this, when Wanda and Lorna spent time together on All-New X-Factor #14, it wasn't touched on at all. Just a brief line showing they should have addressed it, right before Danger suggests a fair and Lorna inexplicably goes from "Decimation made my life hellish" to "whatevs yo, let's party!" Because Avengers editorial clearly hated the idea of giving up total control of Wanda and their Decimation narrative for even one millisecond.

Marvel has a bad habit of ignoring what its audience actually wants and needs in favor of doing whatever they want and trying to force its audience to accept it.

Because the reason why she did it in the first place is dumb.

Also being on an X-Men team could be beneficial if it happens like few years after HoM, but the time is past. There is really no point, for some people it will never be enough, also someone would probably be against giving X-Men comic issues to her with many X-characters lacking it. At this point, it's far from her priority, Avengers is where she stands and thrives, and she hasn't even gotten that back. With No Road Home over, she will just be absent again.
She has very limited appearance and let's say fixing this itchy problems most Wanda fans no longer care about is pointless. Mostly I see the demanding coming from X-fans.
If anything, she needs an iconic and famous story that doesn't involve Magneto, mutant or any HoM elements in any form to replace HoM as her first impression story, honestly I thinkt it's the only way to wash off the sour taste Bendis left on her.

Also that's some generalization, people want different things, and what the general audience want sometimes sucks, like how people believe HoM to be a good story for Wanda or others involved. To be real here, I'd rather see Marvel doing whatever they want than appeasing a certain group. Marvel's decision can be dumb, but at least dumb on their own right.

[Witchfan]

Because the reason why she did it in the first place is dumb.

Also being on an X-Men team could be beneficial if it happens like few years after HoM, but the time is past. There is really no point, for some people it will never be enough, also someone would probably be against giving X-Men comic issues to her with many X-characters lacking it. At this point, it's far from her priority, Avengers is where she stands and thrives, and she hasn't even gotten that back. With No Road Home over, she will just be absent again.
She has very limited appearance and let's say fixing this itchy problems most Wanda fans no longer care about is pointless. Mostly I see the demanding coming from X-fans.
If anything, she needs an iconic and famous story that doesn't involve Magneto, mutant or any HoM elements in any form to replace HoM as her first impression story, honestly I thinkt it's the only way to wash off the sour taste Bendis left on her.

Also that's some generalization, people want different things, and what the general audience want sometimes sucks, like how people believe HoM to be a good story for Wanda or others involved. To be real here, I'd rather see Marvel doing whatever they want than appeasing a certain group. Marvel's decision can be dumb, but at least dumb on their own right.

Wanda is in MCU movies as an Avenger. She is getting her own TV show. I love her presence in the No Road Home series. She introduced Conan to the Marvel Universe. She had a solo series in 2016. These are the first impressions people should have of her. She didn’t need Magneto to be a character in her own right.

[Saffron]

Well, I don't wanted to extend me a lot into a theme so talked, but yes, she had her own flaws, that never gets called out. I just talked about "getting crazy/possessed" with relative frequency as one of them. I don't think that being ill is bad, but if you know that your illness kills people, doesn't should be the correct action seeking help to overcome the "illness"?

The in-story problem with this is that Bendis pulled it out of nowhere. The real life problem is that it employs both the "crazy woman" and the "dangerous crazy people" tropes. By acknowledging the "illness" in the original story, you'd be doubling down on those tropes, which shouldn't have been done in 2005, let alone 2019.

About her reasons to wipe the X-gen, was just to spite on Magneto, because she was blaming him about being messed up adults, that's the first problem, they never were aware of the relationship until adulthood (and still then they never get to pass a lot of time as family) so there is not reason to blame him about her own decisions on life and the consequences. Second, the rest of the mutants weren't guilty. She just hurt them to hurt her father by proximity, and that's something terrible to do. Let's not talk about killing his Avengers friends in sadistic ways to "make them suffer" because she lost her sons, for her own decisions. So we can see a patron here, about she pinning the blame in others to avoid facing her own decisions, and a sadistic and vengeful streak around people who can or can't deserve it.

The story treats Wanda's accusations against Magneto as legitimate. You can't take Wanda's out of the blue characterisations in the event as legitimate while also re-framing her accusations, just because _you_ know what Wanda said was different to how it actually was in previous stories. Either we throw out everything that contradicts previous cannon, or we accept all of Bendis' retcons. You can't have it both ways.

HoM also treats Wanda as having been driven mad by her uncontrollable powers. Her rational for destroying the Avengers was that they lied to her about her kids who weren't real, except they had to lie about it so they must have existed...or something...and "no more mutants" was because mutant utopia showed mutants weren't better than flatscans and so the world would be better without mutants...or something. You can headcannon it as avoidant behaviour, but the text just puts her actions down to "she's gone crazy". There's even a bit in the beginning of the event, where she becomes briefly lucid and anguishes over killing her friends to show it wasn't her usual behavior. This is further reinforced in Disassembled, where various characters voice their surprise at Wanda killing Avengers.

Just that making pact to Doom is not as making pacts to Magneto, is more like making pacts to Mephisto, you just know that he is not selfless, he is going to take advantage, all those examples of people trusting Doom, never had a happy end. Seeking his help to get back soons that she already had (Billy and Tommy are alive just in teenage bodies) was naive and selfish in the best case. So she shows real flaws not just a "she is a woman".

I mean, he did deliver Valeria. But it's all moot, since Doom didn't decimate the Avengers and the mutants, etc.

Anyway, as I said, Heinberg portrayed Wanda as a baby-crazy woman. There's no story to be had there because she found her sons *. I suppose her actions were selfish, but you'd have to establish her as being a distinctly selfish character to roll with this angle, or there's no character growth.

* Note: the characters of Billy and Tommy were created well after Bendis' story. Heinberg's version had the original boys' souls become Billy and Tommy, but nobody was aware of this.

Just to by the end of the issue getting exonerated of all guilt by pinning the blame in Doom and start acting annoyed every time that someone was so mean to talk about the topic again.


As I have stated we have seen a great arc of consequences in Pietro, who was guilt of making a suggestion (while not in the best mental state himself), while Wanda was the one who make the issue real. Still Pietro took the full guilt for the whole issue, and faced the consequences, yes he has his flaws (as Wanda has) but they were not related to the HoM arc, this arc is not about how proud and hostile he was (and still is because the arc wasn't about him changing his character) but about him owning his mistake, trying to make amends, apologizing and facing consequences. This gets even harder when Wanda herself blames him and labeled as a psychopath. So I think that Wanda should have had her own arc instead of an easy excuse.

Maturity, responsibility, stop pinning the blame in others (father, brother, lover), stop looking for an easy and quick way get away and instead accept that she has to earn the trust that she lost, look for a way to control her powers, to make her mind stronger, stop thinking that she has right to take decisions for others, control her temper to avoid lashing against innocent people, get over the "I want babies" stuff and maybe spend some time with her somewhat twins. All those would have been interesting points to call around Wanda.

Nothing was pinned on Doom and Wanda never acted annoyed. Her last words in the series were literally "I have to take responsibility for myself". It was exactly what you're calling for, yet you find it an unsatisfactory resolution. I maintain this is because there was no character growth. Wanda ended up being the same person she was before Disassembled (just a lot mopier). You said yourself that you liked Pietro's mini-arc because you felt he had learned something and was trying to be a better person.

[Saffron]

Because the reason why she did it in the first place is dumb.

Also being on an X-Men team could be beneficial if it happens like few years after HoM, but the time is past. There is really no point, for some people it will never be enough, also someone would probably be against giving X-Men comic issues to her with many X-characters lacking it. At this point, it's far from her priority, Avengers is where she stands and thrives, and she hasn't even gotten that back. With No Road Home over, she will just be absent again.
She has very limited appearance and let's say fixing this itchy problems most Wanda fans no longer care about is pointless. Mostly I see the demanding coming from X-fans.
If anything, she needs an iconic and famous story that doesn't involve Magneto, mutant or any HoM elements in any form to replace HoM as her first impression story, honestly I thinkt it's the only way to wash off the sour taste Bendis left on her.

Also that's some generalization, people want different things, and what the general audience want sometimes sucks, like how people believe HoM to be a good story for Wanda or others involved. To be real here, I'd rather see Marvel doing whatever they want than appeasing a certain group. Marvel's decision can be dumb, but at least dumb on their own right.

This is pretty much what I was going to say. I'll add that even if they had pursued this path immediately after HoM, it wouldn't have redeemed Wanda. She'd have just been stuck forever apologizing because she would be defined entirely by HoM/Decimation, having so little history in the X-verse. Frankly, I think people would have hated even more. Nobody likes wet blanket characters.

[salarta]

Because the reason why she did it in the first place is dumb.

And the reason behind the things I cited within Lorna's history were dumb. I'm still arguing for those things to be reworked, and much of it is even older than HoM.

for some people it will never be enough

This is a given, but when something is cleared up properly, the number of people who feel that way is much smaller. Like I've complained heavily about the handling of Dreamer's death on Gifted, but if it was handled well (read: like all other shows I've seen), that would've been enough for me to move on and watch/support the show. Wanda's Decimation narrative hasn't been cleared up properly.

also someone would probably be against giving X-Men comic issues to her with many X-characters lacking it.

Which is one part of why I said part of a team instead of leading one. It's a bit easier to justify her use on an X-book if it's just part of a team roster.

... most Wanda fans no longer care about is pointless. Mostly I see the demanding coming from X-fans.

Yes, because X-Men fans are the majority aggrieved party. To Wanda fans, the problem is "Wanda was made a scapegoat for a bad decision with writing that didn't handle her properly." Which is a perfectly valid complaint, but Wanda wasn't the only character negatively affected. To X-Men fans, the actions assigned to Wanda with Decimation screwed over their faves and hampered the entire X-Men franchise. That's one character (Wanda) versus hundreds of characters. And from the POV of an X-Men fan, at least Wanda got heavy visibility and a moment where she could look godly levels of powerful - even if the context behind both was bad. There's no such solace for a fan of any X-Men characters ruined or lost by Decimation.

If anything, she needs an iconic and famous story that doesn't involve Magneto, mutant or any HoM elements in any form to replace HoM as her first impression story, honestly I thinkt it's the only way to wash off the sour taste Bendis left on her.

I agree with the first half of this, not the second. If Decimation/HoM isn't resolved in a real way, any attempt to give Wanda a new iconic story to replace Decimation/HoM is going to backfire horribly for her. You'll immediately get people complaining about how Wanda's getting all this attention, people saying Marvel's gonna pull another Decimation and screw over countless characters to benefit her, etc. Your argument of "people would complain about Wanda taking space on an X-book" would apply here only it would play out much worse.

Also that's some generalization, people want different things, and what the general audience want sometimes sucks, like how people believe HoM to be a good story for Wanda or others involved. To be real here, I'd rather see Marvel doing whatever they want than appeasing a certain group. Marvel's decision can be dumb, but at least dumb on their own right.

So if Marvel decides they want to do another Decimation where they repeat the exact same mistakes and everyone ends up hating Wanda more than ever, they should go for it and not bother with appeasing Wanda fans?

I'm not trying to mock you in saying that. I'm trying to make a point that Marvel needs to listen to fans. That doesn't mean blindly doing whatever fans say without question. That would be stupid, and could very easily ruin Marvel. It means looking at what their interests and complaints are, assessing them, and trying to get to the real heart of what's needed. Because often times, what a fan says they want isn't actually what they need, but what they say IS a sign post to those needs. If you as a Wanda fan were present for Decimation, and Marvel was listening to fans, maybe Decimation never would've happened. Or it would've happened in a way that didn't make Wanda look bad.

A balance needs to be struck between doing their own thing, and listening to fans. They don't do enough of the latter. They do the former and try to force fans to accept it.

[gurkle]

I don't think there was any real way to "redeem" Wanda in the X-Men books. In the Avengers comics all she did was blow up the mansion (which gets destroyed all the time) and cause the death of a few heroes (who all came back). Nothing you can't recover from.

But the X-Men line was under orders to do a mutant decimation storyline (which, if Wanda hadn't been chosen for it, would have been caused by someone else) and they were under no orders to make it possible for Wanda to be a hero again. So we had years of nightmarish horror, all of which was said to be caused directly by her, and not a single character in any comic spoke up for the possibility that maybe it was out of character or beyond her power to do this. You can't come back from that and everybody knows it, not without some blame-shifting.

This is why an event in one comics line should not be triggered by a comic edited by another office. When their own character does something bad they usually protect them enough to give them an out, but the X-books never gave Wanda an out because she wasn't their character.

Personally I would have been fine if they'd just chalked it all up to her latest demonic possession and exonerated her the way they've exonerated so many others through mind control. Brevoort did not go that route, probably because "House of M" was a very popular story and to simply retcon it as mind-control would have been stepping on its success (and on Bendis, their star writer at the time). Instead writers have, as in so many other things, been completely on their own with respect to what happened: "Uncanny Avengers" repeatedly said it was Doom's fault and she was just his puppet, which makes no sense but it's still better than saying it was her own idea.

What she really needs is Al Ewing or somebody to pull an "Avengers Forever" and retcon the whole thing in a way that makes sense.

[Saffron]

I agree with the first half of this, not the second. If Decimation/HoM isn't resolved in a real way, any attempt to give Wanda a new iconic story to replace Decimation/HoM is going to backfire horribly for her. You'll immediately get people complaining about how Wanda's getting all this attention, people saying Marvel's gonna pull another Decimation and screw over countless characters to benefit her, etc. Your argument of "people would complain about Wanda taking space on an X-book" would apply here only it would play out much worse.

As I've said before, there can be no real resolution for Wanda - or at least, not a satisfying one - because of the way the original story was structured. You're working on the premise that it was a character driven story, when she actually appeared in like 2 issues and barely had any motivation. Thus, any apology by Wanda would always seem hollow because it wouldn't have been accompanied by a change in character. She would never be able to move on from that role.

So people who hate Wanda for Decimation will stay that forever, and if that's the case, why bother trying to appease them? It's been well over a decade. There's more wealth to be had in crafting new narratives for the character. In fact, Decimation has been referenced less and less with the character as time passes. I don't see anyone upset by this. No one is complaining she's getting undeserved attention.

So if Marvel decides they want to do another Decimation where they repeat the exact same mistakes and everyone ends up hating Wanda more than ever, they should go for it and not bother with appeasing Wanda fans?

I'm not trying to mock you in saying that. I'm trying to make a point that Marvel needs to listen to fans. That doesn't mean blindly doing whatever fans say without question. That would be stupid, and could very easily ruin Marvel. It means looking at what their interests and complaints are, assessing them, and trying to get to the real heart of what's needed. Because often times, what a fan says they want isn't actually what they need, but what they say IS a sign post to those needs. If you as a Wanda fan were present for Decimation, and Marvel was listening to fans, maybe Decimation never would've happened. Or it would've happened in a way that didn't make Wanda look bad.

A balance needs to be struck between doing their own thing, and listening to fans. They don't do enough of the latter. They do the former and try to force fans to accept it.

I actually think Marvel should do what they want. Yeah, I'll be upset if characters I'm emotionally invested in are written in a way I don't agree with, but the end of the day, these are just fictional characters and stories. If I don't like anything, I'll just not buy the comics. And if I really feel the need to have it all my own way, that's what fan fiction is for.

I don't think there was any real way to "redeem" Wanda in the X-Men books. In the Avengers comics all she did was blow up the mansion (which gets destroyed all the time) and cause the death of a few heroes (who all came back). Nothing you can't recover from.

But the X-Men line was under orders to do a mutant decimation storyline (which, if Wanda hadn't been chosen for it, would have been caused by someone else) and they were under no orders to make it possible for Wanda to be a hero again. So we had years of nightmarish horror, all of which was said to be caused directly by her, and not a single character in any comic spoke up for the possibility that maybe it was out of character or beyond her power to do this. You can't come back from that and everybody knows it, not without some blame-shifting.

True, true. We all complain about Bendis and HoM and Disassembled, but I thought Wanda was portrayed somewhat sympathetically there. Her being not in control of herself was reiterated many times. The real culprit is Decimation, which dragged on for ages and made Wanda the genocidal boogeyman.

I see it as a dead loss. All the more reason to keep her away from the X-verse, even if I did like the idea of her and Pietro being Magneto's spawn.

[salarta]

As I've said before, there can be no real resolution for Wanda - or at least, not a satisfying one - because of the way the original story was structured. You're working on the premise that it was a character driven story, when she actually appeared in like 2 issues and barely had any motivation. Thus, any apology by Wanda would always seem hollow because it wouldn't have been accompanied by a change in character. She would never be able to move on from that role.

So people who hate Wanda for Decimation will stay that forever, and if that's the case, why bother trying to appease them? It's been well over a decade. There's more wealth to be had in crafting new narratives for the character. In fact, Decimation has been referenced less and less with the character as time passes. I don't see anyone upset by this. No one is complaining she's getting undeserved attention.

Actually, I'm working on the premise that people perceive her as the focal character who benefited most regardless of how much she appeared.

There's never going to be a resolution that satisfies absolutely everyone, but a resolution is possible that satisfies a majority, which is what matters. Marvel hasn't done that yet. As for character-driven, my comparison to Lorna's history with things like Malice or Zaladane getting reworked in similar ways similarly applies. The only difference is that whereas Lorna's cases were very clearly not beneficial to her, it's easy to view Wanda's role in Decimation as having been beneficial to her.

Again, apology is wrong. People keep presenting "apology from Wanda" as if that's the only option when it's not. In fact, it's one of the worst options, just above excuses. People don't need lip service apologies. They need some kind of real, tangible action that demonstrates a commitment to fixing things.

The assumption that "people who hate Wanda for Decimation will stay that [way] forever" is a huge one to make when Marvel hasn't even made a real effort at resolving the issue yet. It'll be a fair assessment when Marvel tries for real and gets the same results. As for attention, the reason you don't see a lot of people upset is 1) she's being used in the MCU a lot, 2) she hasn't had anything too major yet to bring out the complaints, and 3) where you look makes a difference. For example, one editor at Marvel once said he didn't see much demand for content with Polaris, but he based that exclusively on what people will say directly to him. If he'd bothered to look around, he would've seen tons of demand for all sorts of things with her.

Ultimately, I'm not a Wanda fan. I can call things as I see them, but it's up to Wanda fans and Marvel to decide which route they take with her future. The only way it affects me as a Lorna fan is whether the route taken leads to good stories and character development, or kills off potential with no payoff. The consequences of those decisions on Wanda are whatever they will be.

I actually think Marvel should do what they want. Yeah, I'll be upset if characters I'm emotionally invested in are written in a way I don't agree with, but the end of the day, these are just fictional characters and stories. If I don't like anything, I'll just not buy the comics. And if I really feel the need to have it all my own way, that's what fan fiction is for.

And I disagree. What Marvel does or doesn't do with their fiction and characters has a direct impact on the world and how people live in it. People talk about the value of representation via the Wonder Woman, Black Panther and Captain Marvel films constantly, while other people that hate diversity try to tear those films down. People will end up taking jobs that affect the rest of their lives directly or indirectly because of their fiction, whether it's working in NASA cause they loved Star Trek, going into forensics because CSI made it look cool(er than it is, from what I've heard), and so on. If Marvel isn't going to take ownership of that, they may as well admit they're giving up on the "with great power comes great responsibility" tagline and label everything they make as expensive fanfiction to make sure people don't give it more credit than it's due.

[jmc247]

This Summer.