Page 11 of 57 FirstFirst ... 78910111213141521 ... LastLast
Results 151 to 165 of 842
  1. #151
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    2,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    I'd take it as further confirmation that Marvel is moving toward undoing the retcon, but they'd need to do something more than this to truly undo it. Like a storyline that explains away all the excuses that were used to claim they aren't family.

    Technically they could also try to take the "we may not be biologically related but I still consider you my kid" route, but it wouldn't work very well.
    It's not worth wasting issues for really. Especially when some characters' comic appearances are limited.

    The last part won't work well since Magneto did not raise any of them. The blood ties are the last straw, this route, if handled wrong would make Magneto look pathetic, clinging to someone he has no real connection to but a misunderstanding. Also it undermines Django and Marya Maximoff. And probably make Wanda/Pietro look bad if they show nothing in return when Magneto invest bunch of emotion.

  2. #152
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    615

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximoffTrash View Post
    It's not worth wasting issues for really. Especially when some characters' comic appearances are limited.

    The last part won't work well since Magneto did not raise any of them. The blood ties are the last straw, this route, if handled wrong would make Magneto look pathetic, clinging to someone he has no real connection to but a misunderstanding. Also it undermines Django and Marya Maximoff. And probably make Wanda/Pietro look bad if they show nothing in return when Magneto invest bunch of emotion.
    Django and Mayra didnt matter after 1981. They did it all for greed..they need to clean this mess up.

  3. #153
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    2,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Witchfan View Post
    If the retcon is undone then Scarlet Witch should have more presence in the X-titles and allowed to be in an X-Men team. There is no point to being Magneto's daughter if she is never around. Also, they need to keep her new mother. Instead of backtracking, they should move forward in establishing Natalya and Magneto as having had a relationship years after Magda abandoned him.
    That's kinda the point? I always think it's best for Wanda to be the estranged child, with her own chosen family and belonging.
    She did not exist to serve Magneto's story and she should not periodically appear in X titles, only in specific event that involves her in a personal level, not just "Mag is my dad." (Actually I am more worried about X-writers being fair and all.)

  4. #154
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    2,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MichelleDiMera View Post
    Django and Mayra didnt matter after 1981. They did it all for greed..they need to clean this mess up.
    Django came before Magneto, and Django died in 1979 with Nights of Wundagor, that sacrifice made him matter as a father figure. Not so much for Magneto if the blood ties is not there.

  5. #155
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    2,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    I think a lot of post-M-Day work addressing M-Day out of Marvel has been trying to provide outs and excuses because they see it as tarnishing her image. There was also the politics of corporate wanting to screw the X-Men franchise over cause of Fox owning the film rights. It wasn't lost on me that immediately after the AvX stuff where Wanda helped make new mutants possible, the Terrigen Mists suddenly came into play wiping out mutants and making others sterile. Became pretty blatant that was an attempt to shift blame from one character (Scarlet Witch) to a whole franchise of characters (Inhumans).



    Yeah, but that story really flipped on a dime to have Lorna's attitude toward Wanda change literally out of nowhere. Which I don't blame Peter David for at all, as it clearly came down to people above him at Marvel dictating certain parameters. He did a good job despite their restrictions. But I don't consider that issue to be a legitimate "See, they're over it" case. They needed a full-fledged story arc spanning multiple issues and instead they got a single issue pretty much sabotaged to try to minimize audience interest in their dynamic before the forced retcon.



    Judging by how pre-retcon Brevoort was bending over backwards to try to make excuses for why Lorna somehow couldn't be Magneto's daughter, and how he went out of his way to try to replace Lorna with first Enchantress in Axis and then Luminous in Uncanny Avengers (not to mention having a House of M portrait redrawn to remove Lorna in Children's Crusade), I'd expect he wants the twins to be Magneto's kids. And simultaneously thinks Lorna isn't "good enough" or that the role of daughter can only be occupied by one character.
    Because it actually tarnished her image? Marvel did a bad clean-up job but I think HoM prevent her from being a organic part of X-Franchise more so than the retcon.
    There is hard to be healthy relationship without making one side look bad post-HoM.

    Everytime people ask Wanda to pay or repent, and ignore how much real time it already cost her. Everyone ask about what other family member should feel and get some story out of that disaster and forgetting Wanda herself doesn't get any perspective out of HoM.
    Last edited by MaximoffTrash; 03-13-2019 at 08:10 PM.

  6. #156
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    2,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maestro 216 View Post
    I mean at this point it seems like Wanda has moved on from Magneto. I get the feeling this is only because of the rights reverting suddenly they are teasing this reversion of status quo to the old status quo.
    Yup, pretty much this.
    If AD/HoM didn't happen, Wanda would probably remain the way she was, which would be kinda a blessing.

  7. #157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximoffTrash View Post
    That's kinda the point? I always think it's best for Wanda to be the estranged child, with her own chosen family and belonging.
    She did not exist to serve Magneto's story and she should not periodically appear in X titles, only in specific event that involves her in a personal level, not just "Mag is my dad." (Actually I am more worried about X-writers being fair and all.)
    I'd argue this philosophy is the core of why the Scarlet Witch solo had such low sales starting from #2 on after.

    I am not saying that Wanda has nothing to offer if she's not part of the Magnus family. That would be wrong and stupid to say. But part of a character's appeal is their relationships. If you don't utilize their relationships, you're cutting off a huge source of potential readership as well as potentially engaging storylines. Disavowing/avoiding a specific relationship is good if it's incredibly toxic, but even then it's just that one relationship and shouldn't be permanent. Cutting Wanda off from Magneto effectively cuts her off from Polaris as well as basically anything to do with mutants, as we've seen since Axis. Whereas for a counter-example, Polaris not interacting with Havok doesn't cut her off from potentially interacting with Cyclops, and doesn't sever her mutant history and connections.

    For the record, I generally use the Scarlet Witch solo's approach and sales a) as part of my argument to restore/use many of Lorna's relationships that Marvel stopped acknowledging (Jean, Iceman, etc), and b) as an argument that Marvel has no excuse not to try giving Polaris a solo, mini or oneshot. If Marvel can go 20 issues with Scarlet Witch at sales as low as "cancellation level" for All-New X-Factor despite heavy promo, they can give at bare minimum a oneshot to Lorna.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximoffTrash View Post
    Because it actually tarnished her image? Marvel did a bad clean-up job but I think HoM prevent her from being a organic part of X-Franchise more so than the retcon.
    There is hard to be healthy relationship without making one side look bad post-HoM.

    Everytime people ask Wanda to pay or repent, and ignore how much real time it already cost her. Everyone ask about what other family member should feel and get some story out of that disaster and forgetting Wanda herself doesn't get any perspective out of HoM.
    I disagree with this. I believe what tarnished Wanda's image was the poor attempts at Marvel to make excuses for M-Day, rather than embracing and exploring it more deeply. She did something terrible during a moment of weakness. She's a character, and characters can have big flaws with terrible consequences.

    Right now, the closest comparable situation for Lorna was on Genosha. I talk a lot about how she survived it, and the PTSD she suffered as a result. But buried within what happened on Genosha is the fact that at some point, she stopped fighting the Sentinels and focused on self-preservation and escaping. One view a person could take (and I've seen some fans elsewhere say) is "that moment treated Lorna poorly, it made her look like a coward who won't fight to save and protect people." But I don't take that view. Lorna's a character. She has flaws, and moments of weakness, and consequences to those actions. If another character held that moment against her, that would be absolutely fine and valid to me. It could make for a compelling story. "How does Lorna handle having been princess of Genosha and revered as Magneto's heir while also having failed to protect what were at the time her people?"

    The key is empathy in writing. The angle needs to be one of understanding and shedding light on the complexity of emotions and mental states. Lorna trying to protect herself and escape on Genosha could be understood as the horror overwhelming her. Likewise, Wanda's actions on M-Day could be understood as a sense of extreme loss and perceived lack of control pushing her to a point she wasn't prepared for. Similarly, I think Peter David did a good job with Pietro on ANXF, writing him acknowledging and coming to terms with his own past actions with the Terrigen crystals.

    When I bring up the idea of dealing with how Wanda's actions on M-Day affected Lorna, I'm not thinking of it as "Wanda wuz teh sux." I'm thinking of it as a chance for some amazing insight on what both characters have been through. In particular to Wanda, I think of it as what would be her first real chance to address M-Day and move forward from it. All the explanations given to her so far have felt artificial. Like Marvel trying to say "See, it's not real, let's just ignore it." Having to face Lorna, and all the suffering she went through as a result of M-Day, would open up to Wanda having to face some hard truths about herself - and then plan to be better in the future. Watch herself. Wield power responsibly. Just as Lorna reflecting on Genosha would serve toward a commitment to be a better champion for mutants.
    I can also be reached on Twitter and WordPress.

    Polaris 50th anniversary minicomic written by me and drawn by Mlad, now complete!

  8. #158
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    615

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximoffTrash View Post
    Django came before Magneto, and Django died in 1979 with Nights of Wundagor, that sacrifice made him matter as a father figure. Not so much for Magneto if the blood ties is not there.
    There was no Wanda and Pietro before Magneto. They were sidekick characters that were struggling in the Avengers mantra before being connected to Magneto made them mainstream. They wouldnt have been on the Fox cartoon, Evolution, Wolverine and the X men, House of M, Bloodties...legendary storylines if not for the King on the chess board. Sorry...Djanjo wasnt cutting it.

  9. #159
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    615

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximoffTrash View Post
    Because it actually tarnished her image? Marvel did a bad clean-up job but I think HoM prevent her from being a organic part of X-Franchise more so than the retcon.
    There is hard to be healthy relationship without making one side look bad post-HoM.

    Everytime people ask Wanda to pay or repent, and ignore how much real time it already cost her. Everyone ask about what other family member should feel and get some story out of that disaster and forgetting Wanda herself doesn't get any perspective out of HoM.
    House of M prevented nothing. Bendis did. He practically sabotaged Wanda to push Sentry and the New Avengers line up with Spider Man and Wolverine. I have no clue how you would think a A lister like Magneto..the highest selling villain in Marvel History..would be anything close to a detriment to a b list character. He increased their worth and profile since 1964.

    Bendis botched on such a level that they had to go to their bag of tricks with the life force and damn near wed her off to Dr. Doom aka the most twisted genius on earth. That's absurd but at least it was a new direction where she couldnt piggyback off the Magneto family name like she did for nearly 30 years before then. Without Magneto to blame...Wanda had to finally take fault for going to Doom for help and for turning on her friends out of the blue. Pietro? Same thing. He was basically a crybaby in every major storyline over his big bad father being why he couldnt be a real man and raise his daughter and outright neglect his wife. So the retcon definitely had a negative effect on Quicksilver and Wanda.

    Lorna is different..she could of cried and complained about Magneto's cover up of the plane accident like Wanda and Pietro did ENDLESSLY in Avengers #401 or Bloodties or Onslaught in general. But she didnt. She knew there was more behind why he did it. I dont know if that means she's smarter or her being with Magneto in Genosha made her able to read him better. But they moved on...and Wanda and Pietro stayed in that same crybaby runt that got boring. Natayla Maximoff doesnt fix these issues. It's just lazy and greed motivated. Hopefully they can fix the mistake they should of never made.
    Last edited by MichelleDiMera; 03-14-2019 at 02:57 AM.

  10. #160
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    8,152

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MichelleDiMera View Post
    Lorna is different..she could of cried and complained about Magneto's cover up of the plane accident like Wanda and Pietro did ENDLESSLY in Avengers #401 or Bloodties or Onslaught in general. But she didnt. She knew there was more behind why he did it. I dont know if that means she's smarter or her being with Magneto in Genosha made her able to read him better. But they moved on...and Wanda and Pietro stayed in that same crybaby runt that got boring. Natayla Maximoff doesnt fix these issues. It's just lazy and greed motivated. Hopefully they can fix the mistake they should of never made.
    Lorna’s unique relationship with Magneto stands out though I worry has been getting deep sixed for more Jean like iteration of the character. Hopefully that doesn’t continue. They do need to figure out how to make the post retcon relationship between the family work between the various members.

  11. #161
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    615

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    Lorna’s unique relationship with Magneto stands out though I worry has been getting deep sixed for more Jean like iteration of the character. Hopefully that doesn’t continue. They do need to figure out how to make the post retcon relationship between the family work between the various members.
    They have stayed strong with her not going against her friends but not going against Magneto either. She doesnt have to make a choice these days.

  12. #162
    Ultimate Member juan678's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    spain
    Posts
    17,422

    Default



  13. #163
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    2,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    I'd argue this philosophy is the core of why the Scarlet Witch solo had such low sales starting from #2 on after.

    I am not saying that Wanda has nothing to offer if she's not part of the Magnus family. That would be wrong and stupid to say. But part of a character's appeal is their relationships. If you don't utilize their relationships, you're cutting off a huge source of potential readership as well as potentially engaging storylines. Disavowing/avoiding a specific relationship is good if it's incredibly toxic, but even then it's just that one relationship and shouldn't be permanent. Cutting Wanda off from Magneto effectively cuts her off from Polaris as well as basically anything to do with mutants, as we've seen since Axis. Whereas for a counter-example, Polaris not interacting with Havok doesn't cut her off from potentially interacting with Cyclops, and doesn't sever her mutant history and connections.

    For the record, I generally use the Scarlet Witch solo's approach and sales a) as part of my argument to restore/use many of Lorna's relationships that Marvel stopped acknowledging (Jean, Iceman, etc), and b) as an argument that Marvel has no excuse not to try giving Polaris a solo, mini or oneshot. If Marvel can go 20 issues with Scarlet Witch at sales as low as "cancellation level" for All-New X-Factor despite heavy promo, they can give at bare minimum a oneshot to Lorna.



    I disagree with this. I believe what tarnished Wanda's image was the poor attempts at Marvel to make excuses for M-Day, rather than embracing and exploring it more deeply. She did something terrible during a moment of weakness. She's a character, and characters can have big flaws with terrible consequences.

    Right now, the closest comparable situation for Lorna was on Genosha. I talk a lot about how she survived it, and the PTSD she suffered as a result. But buried within what happened on Genosha is the fact that at some point, she stopped fighting the Sentinels and focused on self-preservation and escaping. One view a person could take (and I've seen some fans elsewhere say) is "that moment treated Lorna poorly, it made her look like a coward who won't fight to save and protect people." But I don't take that view. Lorna's a character. She has flaws, and moments of weakness, and consequences to those actions. If another character held that moment against her, that would be absolutely fine and valid to me. It could make for a compelling story. "How does Lorna handle having been princess of Genosha and revered as Magneto's heir while also having failed to protect what were at the time her people?"

    The key is empathy in writing. The angle needs to be one of understanding and shedding light on the complexity of emotions and mental states. Lorna trying to protect herself and escape on Genosha could be understood as the horror overwhelming her. Likewise, Wanda's actions on M-Day could be understood as a sense of extreme loss and perceived lack of control pushing her to a point she wasn't prepared for. Similarly, I think Peter David did a good job with Pietro on ANXF, writing him acknowledging and coming to terms with his own past actions with the Terrigen crystals.

    When I bring up the idea of dealing with how Wanda's actions on M-Day affected Lorna, I'm not thinking of it as "Wanda wuz teh sux." I'm thinking of it as a chance for some amazing insight on what both characters have been through. In particular to Wanda, I think of it as what would be her first real chance to address M-Day and move forward from it. All the explanations given to her so far have felt artificial. Like Marvel trying to say "See, it's not real, let's just ignore it." Having to face Lorna, and all the suffering she went through as a result of M-Day, would open up to Wanda having to face some hard truths about herself - and then plan to be better in the future. Watch herself. Wield power responsibly. Just as Lorna reflecting on Genosha would serve toward a commitment to be a better champion for mutants.
    Is there a Wanda solo with much more Magneto prominence and sells significant better? (Around the same time?)
    Wanda's situation got better these years mainly due to some MCU juice, where is she like ten years ago? What caused she to be funtionallly dead in 2005?
    I am saying she didn't lose too much by not being part of the family, or say an inactive part of the family. Her history is already that way, occasional appearance and connecton benefit both sides, it's a bonus, not the source of her life as a character.
    The Magnus family (yeah, House of M is a cursed name) ties has its deadly dose, I'd rather just give up the bonus than facing the potential lethal consequences.
    Wanda already has very limited resources and unexplored themes/content, and my priority happened not to be Mutant/Magnus related.
    The best I can hope for is the ties restored with minimum interference to her current status.
    And I want the ties restored because the Wundagore origin s neat.



    You think her got tarnished due to the poor post-disaster actions, but I don't want this disaster to happen in the first place. Tarnished or not, she paid enough with her absence and the rage of fanbase.
    She is not a character doing stuff wrong out of weakness in HoM, she is a freaking plot device doing stupid shit because a writer can't bother to check her history and just think some family drama would be cool?
    And yeah, I am just so selfish to wish Wanda can just leave behind the crap that dragged her back for years and no one really solved?
    And what you said is reasonable and all, but again, what Wanda get out of this connection anyway?

    Why should Wanda really has an insight with an event that makes her nothing more than the combination of some lame tropes? I don't think they can do it without making it sound ridiculous.
    They have years to do that, do you honestly think they cared enough for any of them to do this, put actual thought into it instead of inputting bunch of personal and biased stuff?

  14. #164
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    2,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MichelleDiMera View Post
    There was no Wanda and Pietro before Magneto. They were sidekick characters that were struggling in the Avengers mantra before being connected to Magneto made them mainstream. They wouldnt have been on the Fox cartoon, Evolution, Wolverine and the X men, House of M, Bloodties...legendary storylines if not for the King on the chess board. Sorry...Djanjo wasnt cutting it.
    I would argue Magneto connection didn't really make them "mainstream".
    If you are applying this "you owe this much to me" logic, then I will simply play the "cut the ties and let's see" mentality.

    And somehow House of M is something good for them to be in? Ledendary for butchering the characters for years to come? Stories that basically use them as glorified plot devices? I can really live without any of them. Seriously.
    If that's what you are hoping for, then I am against rebuilding the ties.
    And also WATXM kinda prevented them from appearing in EMH, Wanda was denied her true home.

  15. #165
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    2,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MichelleDiMera View Post
    House of M prevented nothing. Bendis did. He practically sabotaged Wanda to push Sentry and the New Avengers line up with Spider Man and Wolverine. I have no clue how you would think a A lister like Magneto..the highest selling villain in Marvel History..would be anything close to a detriment to a b list character. He increased their worth and profile since 1964.

    Bendis botched on such a level that they had to go to their bag of tricks with the life force and damn near wed her off to Dr. Doom aka the most twisted genius on earth. That's absurd but at least it was a new direction where she couldnt piggyback off the Magneto family name like she did for nearly 30 years before then. Without Magneto to blame...Wanda had to finally take fault for going to Doom for help and for turning on her friends out of the blue. Pietro? Same thing. He was basically a crybaby in every major storyline over his big bad father being why he couldnt be a real man and raise his daughter and outright neglect his wife. So the retcon definitely had a negative effect on Quicksilver and Wanda.

    Lorna is different..she could of cried and complained about Magneto's cover up of the plane accident like Wanda and Pietro did ENDLESSLY in Avengers #401 or Bloodties or Onslaught in general. But she didnt. She knew there was more behind why he did it. I dont know if that means she's smarter or her being with Magneto in Genosha made her able to read him better. But they moved on...and Wanda and Pietro stayed in that same crybaby runt that got boring. Natayla Maximoff doesnt fix these issues. It's just lazy and greed motivated. Hopefully they can fix the mistake they should of never made.
    And who wrote House of M? Was it not Bendis?
    Or you are just using House of M as a stand-in for the family?(If so, yeah, they should go for something more pleasant to the ears.)

    Yeah, being tied to a character much more famous than you means two things, you probably would get more recognition but also, you end up serving his/her narrative.
    At this point? It's already an unfair trade IMO. And it's also unfair among the fans with this who makes who great mentality.

    Speaking of greed, if Wanda is enough to make the editorial feel that way, then I am pretty flattered. But I don't really think anyone gives a damn.
    Asking them to be fair is just an unrealistic dream. I hope everyone come out alright, and carry on like they did.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •