Magnus Family Appreciation 2019

[gurkle]

Actually, I'm working on the premise that people perceive her as the focal character who benefited most regardless of how much she appeared.

I just think it's interesting, and not in a bad way, how different fans perceive it so differently depending on who they're a fan of. Because as you know, fans of Wanda from her Avengers appearances mostly think of her as the exact opposite of the character who benefited the most. We think of it as the worst thing that ever happened to her.

That's all about perspective, though, because from the POV of a Magneto and/or Polaris fan, Wanda benefited from the event making her a part of the House of Magnus. Whereas for an Avengers fan, that was a bad thing because it led to Wanda being wasted in the House of M-inspired family on Wolverine & the X-Men, and not allowed to appear on the Avengers cartoon where she really belonged.

Nobody's right or wrong here, it's just where we come from as fans.

[salarta]

House of X / Powers of X is going to be trash. Decided I'm just gonna get ahead of the event and say it now, cause this time I don't feel like playing the game of pretending Marvel might surprise me in a good way and prove me wrong some time before I die.

I just think it's interesting, and not in a bad way, how different fans perceive it so differently depending on who they're a fan of. Because as you know, fans of Wanda from her Avengers appearances mostly think of her as the exact opposite of the character who benefited the most. We think of it as the worst thing that ever happened to her.

That's all about perspective, though, because from the POV of a Magneto and/or Polaris fan, Wanda benefited from the event making her a part of the House of Magnus. Whereas for an Avengers fan, that was a bad thing because it led to Wanda being wasted in the House of M-inspired family on Wolverine & the X-Men, and not allowed to appear on the Avengers cartoon where she really belonged.

Nobody's right or wrong here, it's just where we come from as fans.

The different perspectives part is where things need to be reconciled. Wanda fans have a legit grievance that Decimation made her look bad and didn't represent her well, while X-books fans have a legit grievance that it seriously hurt their fave characters and franchise. The difference between the two fandom groups is in views of how to resolve the issue, which is based entirely on what's perceived as best for one's own fandom. For Wanda fans, that seems to be "let's pretend it never happened and hope everyone moves on." For X-men fans, it's "we need some closure before we can move forward from it."

What I've tried to propose is a mix of both that if done properly by Marvel would allow both groups to get what they really want: a way forward. Because as it is, whoever wins, both lose. It just won't be obvious because those losses mostly happen in what could have been but never was, not what is and failed.

As for my view of Decimation and Wanda as a Polaris fan, what I see is potential. Wanda was misrepresented in Decimation and I get that. But the base concept isn't inherently bad. It was just executed badly, then Marvel tried to explain it away and did so badly. It could be good in the hands of a good writer focused specifically on fixing it, and I think the emotional intimacy of Lorna and Wanda as sisters (and the desire of their sister fandom to see them together, not forever feuding and hating each other) is the best way of making that happen.


Lastly, there seems to be an assumption among comic fans that simply pretending something never happened and doing other things is the answer. As a Polaris fan, I can say emphatically that isn't the case with her. If that assumption was true, Marvel wouldn't have thrown Lorna into forced limbo for two years, then used her to promote Havok on X-Men Blue at her expense, then handed off her focus from season 1 Gifted to Bishop for Prisoner X. Also wouldn't have tried to erase and replace her first as Magneto's daughter, then as Wanda and Pietro's sister on multiple Avengers books. Polaris got treated horrendously for decades, and despite great use in the early 00s and popularity via Gifted, Marvel still acts like she's some punching bag pariah that only exists to serve other characters who they deem "better" than her. This is directly caused by writers over time not addressing and fixing the worst treatment of her, but letting it sit there and fester while they did other things. Marvel can't even be bothered to acknowledge and use her Genosha history, the genocide of which is on par with the Holocaust for Magneto.

[Saffron]

Actually, I'm working on the premise that people perceive her as the focal character who benefited most regardless of how much she appeared.

There's never going to be a resolution that satisfies absolutely everyone, but a resolution is possible that satisfies a majority, which is what matters. Marvel hasn't done that yet. As for character-driven, my comparison to Lorna's history with things like Malice or Zaladane getting reworked in similar ways similarly applies. The only difference is that whereas Lorna's cases were very clearly not beneficial to her, it's easy to view Wanda's role in Decimation as having been beneficial to her.

Again, apology is wrong. People keep presenting "apology from Wanda" as if that's the only option when it's not. In fact, it's one of the worst options, just above excuses. People don't need lip service apologies. They need some kind of real, tangible action that demonstrates a commitment to fixing things.

The assumption that "people who hate Wanda for Decimation will stay that [way] forever" is a huge one to make when Marvel hasn't even made a real effort at resolving the issue yet. It'll be a fair assessment when Marvel tries for real and gets the same results. As for attention, the reason you don't see a lot of people upset is 1) she's being used in the MCU a lot, 2) she hasn't had anything too major yet to bring out the complaints, and 3) where you look makes a difference. For example, one editor at Marvel once said he didn't see much demand for content with Polaris, but he based that exclusively on what people will say directly to him. If he'd bothered to look around, he would've seen tons of demand for all sorts of things with her.

All from Wanda's appearances, from her return in Children's Crusade to the beginning of Uncanny Avengers, were an attempt to give a resolution to the Decimation plotline, even if you personally didn't like how they went about it. CC went the possession + apology + (try to) reverse actions route, AvX did apology + reverse actions, and UA had her be more involved explicitly in mutant issues. All three display "tangible action that demonstrates a commitment to fixing things" but you and others obviously don't feel it. I argue this is because it's not accompanied by a change in character. It's not even a case of "no resolution will satisfy everyone". It's that, from a writing perspective, no resolution is possible.

And I disagree. What Marvel does or doesn't do with their fiction and characters has a direct impact on the world and how people live in it. People talk about the value of representation via the Wonder Woman, Black Panther and Captain Marvel films constantly, while other people that hate diversity try to tear those films down. People will end up taking jobs that affect the rest of their lives directly or indirectly because of their fiction, whether it's working in NASA cause they loved Star Trek, going into forensics because CSI made it look cool(er than it is, from what I've heard), and so on. If Marvel isn't going to take ownership of that, they may as well admit they're giving up on the "with great power comes great responsibility" tagline and label everything they make as expensive fanfiction to make sure people don't give it more credit than it's due.

You make a good case for artists' moral responsibility, but not for why they need to listen to fans. After all, the two things are sometimes in conflict. For example, there's a worry that CSI-esque shows influences jurors in convicting defendants. Morally, CSI should stop over-dramatizing forensic investigation, but this would go against the fans, who continue watching for the drama.

Anyway, I was mostly responding to your insistence that Marvel forces fans to accept whatever. You can just stop buying their comics if you don't like where they're going.

[salarta]

All from Wanda's appearances, from her return in Children's Crusade to the beginning of Uncanny Avengers, were an attempt to give a resolution to the Decimation plotline, even if you personally didn't like how they went about it. CC went the possession + apology + (try to) reverse actions route, AvX did apology + reverse actions, and UA had her be more involved explicitly in mutant issues. All three display "tangible action that demonstrates a commitment to fixing things" but you and others obviously don't feel it. I argue this is because it's not accompanied by a change in character. It's not even a case of "no resolution will satisfy everyone". It's that, from a writing perspective, no resolution is possible.

I'd say none of those stories made any real attempts to resolve Decimation.

Possession was basically Marvel going "a wizard did it" and trying to make people accept it. Again, apologies are worthless without action in this case. The reverse actions part you're referring to - making mutants able to come into the world again - only fixed the issue of origin. It didn't do anything to fix or make up for all the negative aftereffects of Decimation that followed. It's akin to stopping oil from spilling into a lake but doing nothing to clean up the oil that got spilled into it.

Uncanny Avengers actually made things worse for Wanda on this count as I see it. Through UA, the Avengers books yanked mutants from the X-Men franchise and proceeded to both badmouth the X-Men/mutants and dominate the X-Men franchise within an outside book. They wrote Havok calling mutant a slur, and wrote Rogue as an ignorant straw man version of her so Avengers characters could verbally "own" her. That's not going out and getting involved in mutant issues, that's bringing a couple mutants in for show and tell, making them say and do offensive things and acting like that's normal for mutants. I'm actually surprised and glad Wanda came out of that unscathed, because it would've been very easy (and unfair) for people to blame her while she was on the book.

And this isn't even going into the problem of how Children's Crusade and Avengers vs X-Men excluded Polaris, which has its own issues tied to resolving Decimation.

What Wanda fans wanna do is up to Wanda fans, but I can't say Marvel tried to resolve Decimation when I haven't seen anything that says they tried.

You make a good case for artists' moral responsibility, but not for why they need to listen to fans. After all, the two things are sometimes in conflict. For example, there's a worry that CSI-esque shows influences jurors in convicting defendants. Morally, CSI should stop over-dramatizing forensic investigation, but this would go against the fans, who continue watching for the drama.

Anyway, I was mostly responding to your insistence that Marvel forces fans to accept whatever. You can just stop buying their comics if you don't like where they're going.

Yeah, I wouldn't say Marvel should blindly do whatever fans say either. That point got lost along the way because I had to emphasize why Marvel needs to listen to fans more.

[salarta]

Polaris piece by scarlethex


I also want to add that although I'm disagreeing with people, I'm really glad we're actually discussing things of substance in this thread like how characters have been treated over time, what potential storylines could be explored, what's the next best step for various characters, etc.

[Saffron]

I'd say none of those stories made any real attempts to resolve Decimation.

Possession was basically Marvel going "a wizard did it" and trying to make people accept it. Again, apologies are worthless without action in this case. The reverse actions part you're referring to - making mutants able to come into the world again - only fixed the issue of origin. It didn't do anything to fix or make up for all the negative aftereffects of Decimation that followed. It's akin to stopping oil from spilling into a lake but doing nothing to clean up the oil that got spilled into it.

Uncanny Avengers actually made things worse for Wanda on this count as I see it. Through UA, the Avengers books yanked mutants from the X-Men franchise and proceeded to both badmouth the X-Men/mutants and dominate the X-Men franchise within an outside book. They wrote Havok calling mutant a slur, and wrote Rogue as an ignorant straw man version of her so Avengers characters could verbally "own" her. That's not going out and getting involved in mutant issues, that's bringing a couple mutants in for show and tell, making them say and do offensive things and acting like that's normal for mutants. I'm actually surprised and glad Wanda came out of that unscathed, because it would've been very easy (and unfair) for people to blame her while she was on the book.

And this isn't even going into the problem of how Children's Crusade and Avengers vs X-Men excluded Polaris, which has its own issues tied to resolving Decimation.

What Wanda fans wanna do is up to Wanda fans, but I can't say Marvel tried to resolve Decimation when I haven't seen anything that says they tried.



Yeah, I wouldn't say Marvel should blindly do whatever fans say either. That point got lost along the way because I had to emphasize why Marvel needs to listen to fans more.

Again, I think this is you personally not liking how they went about resolving the plot. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it's incorrect to say no attempts were made. Mutants were restored, apologies were made....Marvel (and most readers, I think) were more than ready to move on from the extinction plotline by that point. They also wanted to use Wanda in other stories because movies and because they wanted to expand the Marvel mystical universe, and that couldn't have happened if they'd continued to harp on about a decade-old event tying her to the X-Men franchise.

[Heroine Addict]

https://cykelops.tumblr.com/post/183...-another-print

[MaximoffTrash]

I agree with the first half of this, not the second. If Decimation/HoM isn't resolved in a real way, any attempt to give Wanda a new iconic story to replace Decimation/HoM is going to backfire horribly for her. You'll immediately get people complaining about how Wanda's getting all this attention, people saying Marvel's gonna pull another Decimation and screw over countless characters to benefit her, etc. Your argument of "people would complain about Wanda taking space on an X-book" would apply here only it would play out much worse.



So if Marvel decides they want to do another Decimation where they repeat the exact same mistakes and everyone ends up hating Wanda more than ever, they should go for it and not bother with appeasing Wanda fans?

I'm not trying to mock you in saying that. I'm trying to make a point that Marvel needs to listen to fans. That doesn't mean blindly doing whatever fans say without question. That would be stupid, and could very easily ruin Marvel. It means looking at what their interests and complaints are, assessing them, and trying to get to the real heart of what's needed. Because often times, what a fan says they want isn't actually what they need, but what they say IS a sign post to those needs. If you as a Wanda fan were present for Decimation, and Marvel was listening to fans, maybe Decimation never would've happened. Or it would've happened in a way that didn't make Wanda look bad.

A balance needs to be struck between doing their own thing, and listening to fans. They don't do enough of the latter. They do the former and try to force fans to accept it.

Backfire in what way? If she gets popular on her own right somehow, AD/HoM in the end will end up being like this "Scarlet Witch is not what you think she is" type of video Looper made to draw attention.
In the end they became dark history/shitty writing every character got a dose of, new fans will find it, brag about it and be done with it.
Also her getting famous enough to the point of getting the backfire is actually a good thing, to be honest, and we are talking about a character struggling in comics even with MCU juice. Worrying about that is distant and pointless.

Also in terms of "people would complain about Wanda taking space on an X-book", because she actually has no right to take any X-character's space, but what I am talking about is Wanda on her own, and that's her own chance and place, if someone want to complain, I will pull out my fan logic on them the same way they pull theirs on Wanda. In short term, I respect others' territory and interest as long as you respect mine.

[salarta]

Again, I think this is you personally not liking how they went about resolving the plot. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it's incorrect to say no attempts were made. Mutants were restored, apologies were made....Marvel (and most readers, I think) were more than ready to move on from the extinction plotline by that point. They also wanted to use Wanda in other stories because movies and because they wanted to expand the Marvel mystical universe, and that couldn't have happened if they'd continued to harp on about a decade-old event tying her to the X-Men franchise.

I'll agree on the idea that they shouldn't exclusively harp on a decade-old event. Too much focus on one thing and little to no use of other things is a problem. I continue to disagree with the rest.

Backfire in what way? If she gets popular on her own right somehow, AD/HoM in the end will end up being like this "Scarlet Witch is not what you think she is" type of video Looper made to draw attention.
In the end they became dark history/shitty writing every character got a dose of, new fans will find it, brag about it and be done with it.
Also her getting famous enough to the point of getting the backfire is actually a good thing, to be honest, and we are talking about a character struggling in comics even with MCU juice. Worrying about that is distant and pointless.

Also in terms of "people would complain about Wanda taking space on an X-book", because she actually has no right to take any X-character's space, but what I am talking about is Wanda on her own, and that's her own chance and place, if someone want to complain, I will pull out my fan logic on them the same way they pull theirs on Wanda. In short term, I respect others' territory and interest as long as you respect mine.

Backfire as in any time something gets new heavy focus, and there are still problems tied to past heavy focus, anyone concerned with those problems will become much more vocal.

I'll admit that some people might think of Wanda as "stealing" a spot for another X-character if she joined a team. But I also believe the real place to address Decimation is on the X-Men books, not the Avengers books. Letting the Avengers books handle it comes loaded with the POV of trying to make the Avengers look good, in many cases also tearing down non-Avengers characters and concepts to make it happen. This is where a Polaris and Scarlet Witch book, or a Magnus family book, would be most beneficial for clearing these things up. There's no "taking away another character's spot" because the selection isn't random fanboyism out of Marvel, it's based on relationships these characters have which take a higher priority.

One final thing I want to add: if Lorna was in Wanda's position, I'd be making the exact same suggestions. This is why I brought up poor treatment of Lorna in past decades, and how I want that history revisited and fixed, not for Marvel to simply pretend it never happened. Even with Havok, I haven't completely ruled out the idea of her eventually doing things with him again. Just for Lorna to get a lot of time and use dedicated to her potential and value away from him to give her a stable foundation, since history shows Marvel not giving her that leads them to treating her poorly for Havok's benefit (e.g. when sent into space and on X-Men Blue). The first step to fixing a mistake is acknowledging it was made. I try to be mindful of what would be fair for fans of other characters and consider things from their POV when I make these kind of suggestions.

[Coatl]

The story treats Wanda's accusations against Magneto as legitimate. You can't take Wanda's out of the blue characterisations in the event as legitimate while also re-framing her accusations, just because _you_ know what Wanda said was different to how it actually was in previous stories. Either we throw out everything that contradicts previous cannon, or we accept all of Bendis' retcons. You can't have it both ways.

No, it's as illogical as it sounds, it's not a small retcon who can be skipped, is like 30 years of cannon. And actually sounds as Wanda trying to pin the responsibility of her own bad decisions in someone else.

HoM also treats Wanda as having been driven mad by her uncontrollable powers. Her rational for destroying the Avengers was that they lied to her about her kids who weren't real, except they had to lie about it so they must have existed...or something...and "no more mutants" was because mutant utopia showed mutants weren't better than flatscans and so the world would be better without mutants...or something.

The point is that Wanda going crazy and becoming a menace has been previous used at least two times and was used again other two, after so many times that Wanda lost control one starts asking, if is not time for Wanda to realize that she is a ticking bomb and start taking measures to control her powers (accept her flaws and develop). Because right now she is a tantrum away to wipe away an entire species.

Also the wipe of mutants wasn't about making the world better, but punishing Magneto to want to protect mutantkind instead that taking care of her.

I mean, he did deliver Valeria. But it's all moot, since Doom didn't decimate the Avengers and the mutants, etc.

As fan of Doom I can tell you that after that he used Valeria as his familiar, to spy in the fantastic four and start the arc of "unthinkable" one of their craziest moments. That man doesn't do anything for free. Also he had nothing to gain from decimating the X-men.

Nothing was pinned on Doom and Wanda never acted annoyed. Her last words in the series were literally "I have to take responsibility for myself". It was exactly what you're calling for, yet you find it an unsatisfactory resolution. I maintain this is because there was no character growth. Wanda ended up being the same person she was before Disassembled (just a lot mopier).

No I found it satisfactory because they took a character that I liked and turn them in a immature and selfish woman who put all the word in danger for selfish reasons, gets angry against everybody and wants to punish people who did nothing against her. She made a mess and then disappear because she wanted to take a vacation, while everybody struggles by her actions. And when returning to the reality, she becomes irresponsible, judgemental to others and acts annoyed when anyone acts as affected, instead of facing the trauma that she caused (and yes she is portrayed as annoyed "by those jerks who can let go" in Uncanny Avengers, AvX, All New even X-force). Pearls like "why is so important that more mutants are born any way"? when faced for desperate mutants who doesn't want to get extinct, just show how little she cares.

That was unsatisfactory because she had a lot of space to improve but instead turned into a unsympathetic character far away of the loving and responsible person who she was supposed to be.

And for all her "take responsibility" flash, in reality she just to pin the blame in Doom to get away without consequences, she doesn't get arrested because the genocide she caused (yes even unintentional, it was genocide) does not face consequences in anyway and doesn't want to change anything about herself. At the end she was the cause of the HoM and the least affected by it.

Damn even at the end of HoM itself shows Magneto playing favorites, while Pietro gets beaten to death (for whispering a suggestion full of preoccupation for her sister life) Wanda gets an apology (after being the one who actually did the mess) it's like a fitting resume of the arc.

You said yourself that you liked Pietro's mini-arc because you felt he had learned something and was trying to be a better person.

No, I said exactly the contrary, Pietro is still the same asocial jerk but he accepted that he made a mistake and took responsibility, was beaten, chewed, insulted, lost friends and loved ones and kept enduring, until he slowly started gaining the trust of those who he harmed again. Also wasn't just an small arc, Son of M, the Quick and the death, Mighty Avengers, damn even in Avengers Academy and two incarnations of X-force he endured criticism without mopping and getting pity.

[Saffron]

No, it's as illogical as it sounds, it's not a small retcon who can be skipped, is like 30 years of cannon. And actually sounds as Wanda trying to pin the responsibility of her own bad decisions in someone else.

The point is that Wanda going crazy and becoming a menace has been previous used at least two times and was used again other two, after so many times that Wanda lost control one starts asking, if is not time for Wanda to realize that she is a ticking bomb and start taking measures to control her powers (accept her flaws and develop). Because right now she is a tantrum away to wipe away an entire species.

Your interpretation of Wanda having dangerously uncontrollable powers is based on HoM , and her having an avoidant personality is based on her blaming Magneto for her damaged childhood in HoM. This is picking and choosing which elements get to be canon. Wanda making accusations (that she has never uttered before) is cannon, but Bendis clearly thinking (or was trying to retcon) that Magneto was actually a deadbeat dad is ignored. Wanda having no control over her powers - yeah, that's totally a thing. Wanda sometimes having lack of precision in her power but no history of being consumed by her natural power - no, let's forget that. Even her being prone to going crazy and evil is choosing to give more weight to some stories than others - iirc, only Darker than Scarlet uses this trope (Bendis had her powers drive her crazy).

There's nothing wrong with picking and choosing your own cannon, of course. Marvel lore is so convoluted and contradictory that I don't think it's possible to engage with these comics without "forgetting" some parts of cannon. But when discussing meta topics, like "how should the Scarlet Witch's involvement in Decimation be handled?", I don't think our personal interpretations based on selective cannon should factor.

Also the wipe of mutants wasn't about making the world better, but punishing Magneto to want to protect mutantkind instead that taking care of her.

"Look what it [mutant rule] becomes [...] we're not the next step. We're not Gods. We're freaks". Mutants not existing was her way of solving the mutant problem in a way that also spites Mags. And again, Bendis established in Disassembled that Wanda acting malevolently was not her normal state.

As fan of Doom I can tell you that after that he used Valeria as his familiar, to spy in the fantastic four and start the arc of "unthinkable" one of their craziest moments. That man doesn't do anything for free. Also he had nothing to gain from decimating the X-men.

That's implying Doom only helped deliver Valeria for this purpose, which is untrue. But as I said, it's all moot since he wasn't involved in decimation or in killing the Avengers, and the Wanda part of the story can't go anywhere because her sons actually exist now.

No I found it satisfactory because they took a character that I liked and turn them in a immature and selfish woman who put all the word in danger for selfish reasons, gets angry against everybody and wants to punish people who did nothing against her. She made a mess and then disappear because she wanted to take a vacation, while everybody struggles by her actions. And when returning to the reality, she becomes irresponsible, judgemental to others and acts annoyed when anyone acts as affected, instead of facing the trauma that she caused (and yes she is portrayed as annoyed "by those jerks who can let go" in Uncanny Avengers, AvX, All New even X-force). Pearls like "why is so important that more mutants are born any way"? when faced for desperate mutants who doesn't want to get extinct, just show how little she cares.

That was unsatisfactory because she had a lot of space to improve but instead turned into a unsympathetic character far away of the loving and responsible person who she was supposed to be.

And for all her "take responsibility" flash, in reality she just to pin the blame in Doom to get away without consequences, she doesn't get arrested because the genocide she caused (yes even unintentional, it was genocide) does not face consequences in anyway and doesn't want to change anything about herself. At the end she was the cause of the HoM and the least affected by it.

"I have to take responsibility for myself" were her VERY LAST words in Children's Crusade. I don't feel like continuing this if you aren't going to even acknowledge that she explicitly took responsibility, or if you're going to continue to claim she blamed it all on Doom. Show me the panels where she does this.

And all through CC and AvX, she was meek and subservient, with several characters being very hostile towards her. Not a single instance of her acting annoyed. It was the exact thing you've asked for, less formal punishment (which no hero ever truly gets).

It was only after all this, which failed to redeem her in the eyes of X-fans, that a writer tried another approach and wrote Wanda with a backbone. But even in UA, Wanda says "I accept responsibility for what I did". Of course, certain people disliked this approach, which backs what I said - no amount of kow towing and grovelling would ever have been enough. The minute she stopped being submissive, people would have dismissed her previous state and accused her of being heartless.

O/T but actually I loved the "why was it so important more mutants be born" line. For context, it was about Scott, who had himself just coveted an uncontrollable power in order to make people mutants again. Something that annoyed me in all of Decimation/Extinction was that we never saw kids be glad they didn't have to worry about having dangerous powers or looking like monsters anymore. I liked that someone injected a bit of nuance into the whole thing, though Remender should have known it would be taken out of context.

[salarta]

We've reached the end of the 6 month journey taken with Mlad to make this Polaris minicomic for her 50th anniversary. Time to post the whole thing here and elsewhere.

Mlad has been awesome through this whole thing, and I highly recommend him both as an artist and just in general.

I had trouble determining the dialogue in the final page this time, but I always knew "I'm still alive" would be there. Because she's a survivor.

[salarta]

And thus concludes this minicomic!

[juan678]

And thus concludes this minicomic!

Awesome Thanks Salarta

[salarta]

Awesome Thanks Salarta

Thanks yourself for being around posting things and just generally being awesome.