Magnus Family Appreciation 2019

[Lucyinthesky]

Technically Avengers Dissembled already did the job, House of M happened due to Quesada's "Millions of mutants cannot count as a minority" mindset and Bendis just got the right plot device to do another hack.
House of M is meant to influence the mutant/X-franchise than Avengers franchise, and you get the Messiah trilogy as follow ups to that.

The messiah trilogy was made to fix the effects of hom, a lot of X-Men fans were mad because their faves were depowered in a story that wasnt told from the x men pov, wasnt from the x office.

[juan678]

Awesome, Thank you Juan, Magneto, Lorna, Ororo and Scott by Hickman, can´t wait Could you post the link to see the entire interview?

Thanks Lucyinthesky IS From Marvel Universe Fall Magazine 2019 today

[Lucyinthesky]

Thanks Lucyinthesky IS From Marvel Universe Fall Magazine 2019 today

Thank you

What about Magneto Rex and Magneto Dark Seduction? Dark Seduction which came out 19 years ago was the only time Wanda, Lorna, Pietro and Magneto were in a 616 crossover together ironically.

The were X-Office events as far as I know, agreed about Dark Seduction, it along with Children Crusade had the majority of the family. It would be interesting if marvel made a new event with all of them: Pietro, Lorna, Wanda, Magneto, Luna, Tommy and Billy.

The Avengers line rarely had great ideas on what to do with Pietro and PAD historically did which was why he was used on X-Factor at times in the 90s, 00s and early this decade. Wanda was a different story where they never allowed her over other then for very short stints. X-writers and x-editors other then the first ones in the 60s never had a serious influence on Wanda's story.

Agreed I would say that Pietro´s character defining stories happened with the Inhumans when he was living with Luna and Crystal and X-Factor. The Avengers side of things sadly mostly use him as the team speedster or as Wanda supporting character. Even in the MCU he was killed too son to make an impact with the audience as an Avengers while Fox´s Peter Maximoff was missed in Dark Phoenix.

[MaximoffTrash]

The messiah trilogy was made to fix the effects of hom, a lot of X-Men fans were mad because their faves were depowered in a story that wasnt told from the x men pov, wasnt from the x office.

Wolverine took a large chunk of the POV and admit it or not. HoM dide really affect the Avengers franchise.
Messiah Trilogy is as much an effort to fix HoM as it is a direct product of it. HoM is made so X-Office can rehash another Mutant extinction story.
You can say X-fan don't want this and Wanda fans can just make the same claim we don't want our fave functionally dead for the sake of a rehashed storyline of another franchise.
But thing is that there is no agenda for Wanda or Avengers in HoM, they either end up not being used or status quo unchanged.

[Lucyinthesky]

Wolverine took a large chunk of the POV and admit it or not. HoM dide really affect the Avengers franchise.
Messiah Trilogy is as much an effort to fix HoM as it is a direct product of it. HoM is made so X-Office can rehash another Mutant extinction story.
You can say X-fan don't want this and Wanda fans can just make the same claim we don't want our fave functionally dead for the sake of a rehashed storyline of another franchise.
But thing is that there is no agenda for Wanda or Avengers in HoM, they either end up not being used or status quo unchanged.

I am not talking about agendas, I am talking about who´s mainly responsible for the event and in the case of HoM it was wrote by Bendis, the main Avengers writer at the time, whose main job according to him in his interviews, was to make the Avengers a modern franchise and it doesn´t need to be said that in the 2000´s is really where the whole Marvel/Disney/Fox debacle begun. Avengers Dissasemble/HoM put avengers comics in the first places in sales, so we can´t say exactly that X-men as a franchise benefited from it imo.

[GenericUsername]

I am not talking about agendas, I am talking about who´s mainly responsible for the event and in the case of HoM it was wrote by Bendis, the main Avengers writer at the time, whose main job according to him in his interviews, was to make the Avengers a modern franchise and it doesn´t need to be said that in the 2000´s is really where the whole Marvel/Disney/Fox debacle begun. Avengers Dissasemble/HoM put avengers comics in the first places in sales, so we can´t say exactly that X-men as a franchise benefited from it imo.

Disney didn't buy Marvel until after that event even took place (2009). So there wasn't a debacle. Marvel didn't even start to put the stops on the F4 and X-men in games until 2014. So that's not where it started. They probably thought it'd just be different and interesting. The Avengers sales were sluggish. And they had it in their head that mutants can't be a minority at millions, when there are billions in the world. It was kind of dumb, but not that business plan. Not yet.

[Lucyinthesky]

Disney didn't buy Marvel until after that event even took place (2009). So there wasn't a debacle. Marvel didn't even start to put the stops on the F4 and X-men in games until 2014. So that's not where it started. They probably thought it'd just be different and interesting. The Avengers sales were sluggish. And they had it in their head that mutants can't be a minority at millions, when there are billions in the world. It was kind of dumb, but not that business plan. Not yet.

The Iron Man movie came out in 2008, a movie usually takes 1 or 2 years to be made, this means Disney and Marvel studios were already in talks since at least 2006, a year after HoM was made so I think it was in part a bussines plan because it also became quite clear that marvel was pushing the avengers over it´s other properties since Avengers Dissasemble, it was also Bendis´s idea to bring Magneto at the end of that story when the character already was being used in Excalibur by Chris Claremont. Of course there was also a "problem" for editors at marvel when Morrison made the mutants a separate species that were about to be the majority in the planet but there are a lot of ways they could have go to solve the problem without a X-men/Avengers crossover made by the Avengers office.

This was a long time ago and I am personally happy with how the X-men are now, I just find unfair when I see fans blame the X-men for HoM when they certainly were also negatively affected by the event and it was quite clear by the next crossovers made by marvel that their objetive was to push the Avengers in comics and later in movies.

[GenericUsername]

The Iron Man movie came out in 2008, a movie usually takes 1 or 2 years to be made, this means Disney and Marvel studios were already in talks since at least 2006, a year after HoM was made so I think it was in part a bussines plan because it also became quite clear that marvel was pushing the avengers over it´s other properties since Avengers Dissasemble, it was also Bendis´s idea to bring Magneto at the end of that story when the character already was being used in Excalibur by Chris Claremont. Of course there was also a "problem" for editors at marvel when Morrison made the mutants a separate species that were about to be the majority in the planet but there are a lot of ways they could have go to solve the problem without a X-men/Avengers crossover made by the Avengers office.

This was a long time ago and I am personally happy with how the X-men are now, I just find unfair when I see fans blame the X-men for HoM when they certainly were also negatively affected by the event and it was quite clear by the next crossovers made by marvel that their objetive was to push the Avengers in comics and later in movies.

Disney did not buy them until a year later. Marvel Studios was formed in 1993. A lot of those movies were already planned before Disney came about because Marvel believed that would help save the company. They were still in the red. The timeframe you are talking about, Toybiz had owned the company. So any idea that they were in talks way earlier is not confirmed anywhere. There's no article anywhere that states that. It wasn't said in Marvel: The Untold Story either. So where did you get any info on that?

It didn't become clear that Marvel was pushing Avengers even more. Even after all the bs that started in 2014, the x-books still had six titles. They did after 2014 limit them in merchandise and games, a lot. But completely eliminated the F4.

[Lucyinthesky]

It was an educated guess, 2009 was the year when it was made official The Marvel Entertaiment/Disney agreetment, this doesn´t mean that it was that year when their talks and negotiations were made, seeing how much time it took to make a Fox/Disney deal and the problems between Sony/Disney despite their deal was already made. Also marvel already had financial troubles before Disney bought it.

Marvel doesn´t need to cancel X-men titles to push other titles, the situation with the push with Inhumans titles before the Fox/Disnay deal was made is a testament for this but marvel takes it´s time to do this. Acording to Bendis it was a long term plan back in 2004 to develop the Avengers franchise and make it more modern:

"

Readers didn't know it at the time, but in "New Avengers" #1, Bendis began laying the groundwork for his ambitious 2008 event featuring the shapeshifting alien Skrulls, "Secret Invasion." "The only person I told was Tom Brevoort. I said, 'Here's what's going on in the shadows. Here's what I want to build to, but real slow. It's kind of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers."' He thought it was great. They had always toyed with doing a Kree-Skrull War II, but it never stuck. So Tom thought this was the way to go," Bendis said. "My idea was that we were just seeding towards this and then we'd release it around issue #25. There would be a big reveal, and I would turn over all my cards. At the time, I was thinking I'd be lucky to get six issues on the book. "Long terms plans are always good, though. It creates a subconscious desire in the editor's heart to keep you there," Bendis said with a laugh. "It's like, 'He's got a plan!' Jonathan Hickman is the master of this. As soon as Jon gets on any book, he's like, 'Here's my 50-issue plan.' And they go, 'Wow! 50 issues! Oh my goodness!' Meanwhile, you as a freelancer are going, 'I got 50 issues!'" Bendis wasn't sure if "New Avengers" would sell as well as "Avengers

"They were going through all of the books, and when we got to 'Avengers,' Mark Millar and I were doing a lot of talking. We were told to feel free to talk, but sometimes we were the only ones talking which can be embarrassing. Mark and I really got into a tizzy about Avengers," Bendis recalled. "It was just us bitching, saying things like, 'Why isn't it really Earth's Mightiest heroes? What the fuck is Jack of Hearts?' Then Mark, in his lilting Scottish brogue, said, 'You know, when I was a wee young lad in Scotland, I would only buy "Justice League" because I would get all of my DC heroes for just 10 cents. It was a bargain and featured some of their greatest characters.' "I responded, 'Yeah, why isn't "Avengers" a book made up of the coolest guys? Why doesn't it have characters like Spider-Man and Wolverine?' Then a ruckus broke out in the room. People were screaming and yelling. It was really just madness," Bendis continued. "So it was me, Mr Schmucky, and Scottish Schmucky coming in and going, 'Your book sucks! This could be better.' That's not what we were doing, but there's no way that it didn't come off that way. Meanwhile, as soon as I said that Spider-Man should be an Avenger, people were pounding on the table going, 'SPIDER-MAN WOULD NEVER BE AN AVENGER!'"

https://www.cbr.com/bendis-looks-bac...s-assemblyman/

I actually have no problem with marvel pushing different properties at different times, right now I can see that Hickman taking the X-men out of their decimation phase is a part of their plan to develop them in the MCU given the synergy between comics and the MCU I just dislike when they do it by negatively affecting other titles.

[GenericUsername]

It was an educated guess, 2009 was the year when it was made official The Marvel Entertaiment/Disney agreetment, this doesn´t mean that it was that year when their talks and negotiations were made, seeing how much time it took to make a Fox/Disney deal and the problems between Sony/Disney despite their deal was already made. Also marvel already had financial troubles before Disney bought it.

Marvel doesn´t need to cancel X-men titles to push other titles, the situation with the push with Inhumans titles before the Fox/Disnay deal was made is a testament for this but marvel takes it´s time to do this. Acording to Bendis it was a long term plan back in 2004 to develop the Avengers franchise and make it more modern:

"



https://www.cbr.com/bendis-looks-bac...s-assemblyman/

I actually have no problem with marvel pushing different properties at different times, right now I can see that Hickman taking the X-men out of their decimation phase is a part of their plan to develop them in the MCU given the synergy between comics and the MCU I just dislike when they do it by negatively affecting other titles.

I think Bendis is just a crappy writer sometimes. He seems to be doing the same over at DC, without any studio politics. Bad stories happen in comics. At least it's 14 years ago now. And things are better.

Now later on down the line I know they were doing stuff. Because they told us that were playing Marvel Heroes that only big time mutants could be added. No B, C or below after that point. Marvel gave Gazillion a hard time about having the old contract that allowed them to use mutants and F4.

The plan to make Avengers better was back then because Austen had put the team in the toilet. Everyone thought Bendis would do better. And he did better with HIS team. But at the cost of the classic Avengers, the Avengers charter, and just about everything that made the team unique. They just toted out faves, and of course it'd sell, because Spidey and Wolverine are always easy sells.

[Lucyinthesky]

I think Bendis is just a crappy writer sometimes. He seems to be doing the same over at DC, without any studio politics. Bad stories happen in comics. At least it's 14 years ago now. And things are better.

I guess they want him to do something similar to HoM in the DC universe in the sense of breaking old formulas and making new context for the characters.

Now later on down the line I know they were doing stuff. Because they told us that were playing Marvel Heroes that only big time mutants could be added. No B, C or below after that point. Marvel gave Gazillion a hard time about having the old contract that allowed them to use mutants and F4.

I agree yet they didn´t really said they were doing this until it was obvious for anybody who put attention. They went as far as trying to replace the X-men with the inhumans.

The plan to make Avengers better was back then because Austen had put the team in the toilet. Everyone thought Bendis would do better. And he did better with HIS team. But at the cost of the classic Avengers, the Avengers charter, and just about everything that made the team unique. They just toted out faves, and of course it'd sell, because Spidey and Wolverine are always easy sells.

Bendis job was to make the Avengers and New Avengers title one of the most if not the most popular comic in marvel even if he had to bring popular characters like Spider-Man and Wolverine to do it. I supposed the idea was to make something similar to the Justice League who has the big three super heros of DC. In marvel case he established Captain America, Thor and Iron Man as the big three along with Spider Man and Wolverine. The classic Avengers were brought after the rebuilding of the team was done, I suppose that was the point of them doing a 50 issue plan.

[GenericUsername]

I guess they want him to do something similar to HoM in the DC universe in the sense of breaking old formulas and making new context for the characters.



I agree yet they didn´t really said they were doing this until it was obvious for anybody who put attention. They went as far as trying to replace the X-men with the inhumans.



Bendis job was to make the Avengers and New Avengers title one of the most if not the most popular comic in marvel even if he had to bring popular characters like Spider-Man and Wolverine to do it. I supposed the idea was to make something similar to the Justice League who has the big three super heros of DC. In marvel case he established Captain America, Thor and Iron Man as the big three along with Spider Man and Wolverine.

The classic Avengers were brought after the rebuilding of the team was done, I suppose that was the point of them doing a 50 issue plan.

Which would be weird, because Busiek's run felt the most JL like. But it kept all the unique elements of the Avengers too. The Inhumans stuff was garbage. It did a disservice to both mutants and Inhumans. Inhumans were mostly about monarchy politics and such. It should have kept that intrigue instead of taking on the primary cause of another group.

[Lucyinthesky]

Which would be weird, because Busiek's run felt the most JL like.

Yes, I remember that crossover Busiek did with the JL the problem I see is that after Busiek´s run who did a really good job to fix the Avengers continuity the team didn´t have many recognized characters and as you said Austen didn´t really help matters so marvel decided the Avengers needed something very different to get more sales and of course bringing characters like Wolverine and Spider- Man would work given they already had solo titles. I guess it would have been better if Bendis did more character development with the classic Avengers but imo that´s not really his style.

But it kept all the unique elements of the Avengers too. The Inhumans stuff was garbage. It did a disservice to both mutants and Inhumans. Inhumans were mostly about monarchy politics and such. It should have kept that intrigue instead of taking on the primary cause of another group.

Agreed this conflict only made the Inhumans look really bad it would have been better if Marvel did their own version of Game of Thrones with them and other royal families like the Shiar or the Kree. That´s why crossovers like War of Kings were very well received and X-men vs Inhumans wasn´t. Given both groups share the sentiment of having to hide from the normal human population they work better as allies than as adversaries and worse, natural stories that could have been born from this conflict like Pietro and Magneto relationship with Crystal and Luna were left out just because marvel decided to break all links in the family, even Luna was nowhere to be seen.

[powerpax]

Busiek's Avengers is wonderful meat and potatoes Avengers done with love. It's objectively better than Bendis by miles, IMO. But it never catapulted the book into a higher level of attention to get them beyond Marvel's 90s obsession with the X-Men to the point of bankruptcy.

IMO the Bendis revamp was necessary. It was far from perfect, and his obvious massive issues with plotting and characterization and the complete lack of editorial supervision made me sour on him quickly, but it got me reading the book full time for years and years. Making up a team of company heavy hitters and then rebuilding the larger Avengers over time was the right move; making Spidey, Luke, etc. major Avengers was bold. Just like replacing him with Hickman was also the right move, because Bendis was very tired but the time he wrapped Avengers. He should never have been given X-Men, because IMO not only is he not good with big team books or events, he also didn't seem terribly interested in the X-Men. He was tired and it was time for him to go back to smaller books. So instead he went to DC and he's going to foul it up again, lol. I can't think of a man less suited for my poor Legion.

[Lucyinthesky]

Busiek's Avengers is wonderful meat and potatoes Avengers done with love. It's objectively better than Bendis by miles, IMO. But it never catapulted the book into a higher level of attention to get them beyond Marvel's 90s obsession with the X-Men to the point of bankruptcy.

Agreed the problem with heavy continuity is that it works well if the reader is really interested in knowing the story of the characters but if they just want a good story heavy with action it will just not work.

IMO the Bendis revamp was necessary. It was far from perfect, and his obvious massive issues with plotting and characterization and the complete lack of editorial supervision made me sour on him quickly, but it got me reading the book full time for years and years. Making up a team of company heavy hitters and then rebuilding the larger Avengers over time was the right move; making Spidey, Luke, etc. major Avengers was bold. Just like replacing him with Hickman was also the right move, because Bendis was very tired but the time he wrapped Avengers. He should never have been given X-Men, because IMO not only is he not good with big team books or events, he also didn't seem terribly interested in the X-Men. He was tired and it was time for him to go back to smaller books. So instead he went to DC and he's going to foul it up again, lol. I can't think of a man less suited for my poor Legion.

I agree completely, solo titles really suit him better than team titles