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  1. #736
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  2. #737
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  3. #738
    Magneto-centric Rivka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchfan View Post
    How do you guys feel about Wanda being classified as a human pretender in House of X #4.
    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    I think it is a total disrespect to her.
    Editing this post b/c I went back and re-read the issue:

    Hey, I'm not Wanda's #1 fan, and hardly the one to defend her--HOWEVER, that was an extremely misleading and derogatory bit of fan-service in HOUSE OF X #4. In the first place, depowering mutants led to some tragedies, but depowering, or preventing new mutants from being born, isn't on the same level as murdering them a la Cassandra Nova and Genosha. By the way, the Genoshan massacre of 16-million mutants was NOT caused by humans, but by Cassie, Xavier's twin sister, a fellow mutant. She murdered all those mutants to get revenge, to assuage her rage and jealousy, to hurt Xavier. [Upon re-reading, Cassandra Nova is listed as a Mummadrai, but not a mutant. However Sentinels and Trask are still blamed and it wasn't their fault this time. The tech existed, but Cassandra Nova forced a Trask relation to provide her with the access codes. The genocide at Genosha was really all Cassandra Nova's doing.]

    As to the designation "Pretender" -- a "pretender" implies conscious intent to deceive. Wanda didn't "pretend" to be a mutant. She was, as far as she knew, a born mutant. She and her brother were, as far as she understood, the children of Magneto. And "pretender" works both ways. I don't think the designation means Wanda isn't a mutant now, or that idiotic Axis retcon can't be undone. She is either a non-mutant "pretending" to be one, or a mutant "pretending" to be a non-mutant; if you buy the case that she is consciously "pretending" to be anything. Which she isn't.

    She seems more like a victim, her emotional scars (that of an orphan, someone without a family yearning to find one) being exploited by the High Evolutionary, either (a) covering up that Magda was really her mother afterall, and Magneto her father, or (b) Magneto is the father and Natalya is her mother, or (c) Marya and Django are her parents and part of the High Evolutionary's story is true, or (d) Natalya is her mother, her father is unknown, and another part of the H.E.'s story is true ... it's all still possible given the label "Pretender."

    It seems to me that that info-chart in HoX#4 has several inconsistencies and doesn't quite make sense. Weren't the Avengers also listed as mutant killers? Isn't that something that hasn't happened yet? Is it a prediction? [Upon re-reading, the Avengers are not listed as perpetrators, Wanda is listed as an Avenger. The first list is clearly 616 continuity but from an extremist mutant POV. Wanda is still not a "pretender."]

    I'm hoping this is just fan-wanking by Hickman, but it still doesn't fit continuity as we know it. Wanda being on that list is basically a lie (mutant propaganda of the future?) told to discredit and slander her. [Upon re-reading, it does fit continuity. I didn't remember there are two lists. The first states Wanda "depowered" a million mutants. The second is more problematic; it has her on a list of "Crimes Against Mutants" listing the number of victims, with de-powering equated to mass murder. It makes Wanda look like a murderer by association.]

    I think the word "pretender" argues strongly for the opposite of what people think; I think it argues for the retcon being overturned and Wanda being a mutant who sticks with the humans and betrays her own people. She would go down in mutant history as a traitor and villain. In other words, she didn't murder that many mutants when she said, "No More Mutants" she depowered them, took away the X-gene from people so no more mutants would be born which can be interpreted as a form of genocide of future generations unborn, the same way anti-choice fanatics argue that birth control is "murder" because it prevents the birth of new souls to be saved. But Wanda is NOT responsible for an actual kill count--like leading them into gas chambers or nuking them or burning them alive, etc--she is counted as equal to those who actually murdered millions of living human mutant beings. [Was it ever established how many mutants died when she removed their powers because they were using their powers at the time? Like mutants flying, or under the water, or those who could withstand fire, or walk through walls--horrible deaths if their powers were removed instantly. Wanda must have inadvertently caused mutant deaths, but it's not the same thing as the deliberate murder of people that everyone else on both lists is guilty of.]
    Last edited by Rivka; 09-05-2019 at 06:58 PM.

  4. #739
    Magneto-centric Rivka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teapartyofthedead View Post
    Considering the missteps the MCU has already done with the Magnus family, it’s a fair concern. I would love to believe that such a show could lend itself to a really good representation of Magneto and his origins as a Jewish Holocaust survivor, and that the show runners will be respectful to the material. But I would also love to believe that Trump and his cronies will be lead away in handcuffs and every detention camp emptied and torn down by morning.

    It’s going to mean everyone has to stay on top of this, make our concerns heard as loudly as we can, and fight every measure that could lead to Magneto and what he represents being compromised.
    Amen to that. Thank you for that.

    I'd like to know how much Disney is starting to interfere with Marvel Studios, too. I can't believe this is a Marvel Studios thing--this sanitizing, turning Marvel characters into generic WASP prototypes, or creating a quota system for minority characters, making any minority that kinda looks the same interchangeable; *oh, we can't have more than one Jewish character so let's switch this one for another minority, and the Holocaust for another genocide.* (Like pick your minority and pick your genocide, choose one from Column A and and one from Column B.)

    I'm tired of all this supposed "news" coming out about Disney Studios, Marvel Studios, the X-MEN and the FF--it's all vague and it all seems negative and aimed at eliminating diversity and depth from these characters.

    Like we've said many times, if Disney is saying they can't have a Holocaust survivor in a movie or tv show based on a Marvel comic book property, they are participating in Holocaust denial. Especially if this is Magneto, who has been confirmed as Jewish and a survivor of the Shoah in nearly 20 years of previous films, as well as 37 years of comic book continuity. But even FOX films never identified Kitty Pryde in the movies as Jewish.

    Disney/Marvel have made a lot of progress regarding diversity. But they still have a long way to go. And now they've got properties (X-MEN, FF) that will seriously challenge Marvel Studios' resolve to represent. How are they going to handle this challenge?
    Last edited by Rivka; 09-05-2019 at 03:12 PM.

  5. #740
    Magneto-centric Rivka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    That they have done in spades, the original folklore and fairytales they adapted were lessons on life and human nature, not superficial entertainment. It's worked for Disney to bring in cash, but it hasn't helped society in any meaningful way in the way the old stories did. Society is in a state of low grade chaos and part of that is that the youth need guidance... fables, folklore and fairytales were one of many things that offered that.

    I will say this... I firmly believe they will attempt to adapt the Holocaust backstory. Its one of the greatest backstories of any characters they currently fully own. But, I believe they are going to try to adapt it at the PG-11 level and that is unfortunate, but a lesser evil then if they decide they can't adapt it at the PG-11 level in which case then the danger comes in of them deciding on another backstory.

    If The Wanda/Vision series or the Strange film doesn't bring back Quicksilver chances are he isn't coming back unless Wanda does a big reality warp later. As for Lorna her origins with her mom are too dark for Disney and were already done for Jean in Dark Phoenix. I don't see them going there. I do think Lorna as a character needs some kind of major trauma or version of Genosha's destruction to function beyond the superficial level. I have my doubts on them bringing her on right now, but clearly Emma Dumont is pushing for it and she still millions of fans.
    I hope you're right about Magneto. I can't believe Kevin Feige would ever erase Magneto's Auschwitz history, but how much is he being pressured by Disney? If Disney is smart, they'll leave Marvel Studios alone and not mess with the goose that lays the golden eggs.

    As for Lorna, I thought THE GIFTED handled her story fairly well. Everything was left vague, but it was clear who her father was. Did she ever say any more about her mom in THE GIFTED other than sing the lullaby and say her mom sang it to her? In fact, I think the show kept Peter David's origin story for Lorna pretty much intact. Why couldn't Marvel Studios do the same thing?

    In fact, before they do a "Magneto" series for Disney+ which is such a bad fit for the streaming service, they should ask Emma Dumont back to play Polaris on a "Children of Magneto" series. But that wouldn't be a good fit either, for Disney+ I guess. The stuff on Disney+ has to be jokey and upbeat and the super hero feats have to be like a carnival or theme-park ride. I even think Loki should be too dark for Disney+ but I guess they're going for "Ragnorak" and not "Dark World."

  6. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivka View Post
    I hope you're right about Magneto. I can't believe Kevin Feige would ever erase Magneto's Auschwitz history, but how much is he being pressured by Disney? If Disney is smart, they'll leave Marvel Studios alone and not mess with the goose that lays the golden eggs.

    As for Lorna, I thought THE GIFTED handled her story fairly well. Everything was left vague, but it was clear who her father was. Did she ever say any more about her mom in THE GIFTED other than sing the lullaby and say her mom sang it to her? In fact, I think the show kept Peter David's origin story for Lorna pretty much intact. Why couldn't Marvel Studios do the same thing?

    In fact, before they do a "Magneto" series for Disney+ which is such a bad fit for the streaming service, they should ask Emma Dumont back to play Polaris on a "Children of Magneto" series. But that wouldn't be a good fit either, for Disney+ I guess. The stuff on Disney+ has to be jokey and upbeat and the super hero feats have to be like a carnival or theme-park ride. I even think Loki should be too dark for Disney+ but I guess they're going for "Ragnorak" and not "Dark World."
    We don't know fully the internal politics of the Disney decisions with the canceled series. Disney is really afraid in so far as their merchandising for young girls of doing anything dark or controversial that could upset that applecart. They seem to have more leeway with the Star Wars and MCU line that are more geared to young boys.

    Disney might be willing to accept PG-13 fair for their MCU and Star Wars stuff on their streaming channel, but not for their more female centered animated fairytale stuff. We just don't know as yet.

    The Gifted did ok not great with their Magneto stuff within the limits of not using his name. They didn't touch her origins story, but did have her say off hand that she had been in plane crashes better then a mission she went on. Emma Dumont clearly wants Disney to use her and she is young enough that they could get a decade out of her if they so decided.

    Rich Johnson: And although not turned into human, prominent movie mutants Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were turned into non-mutants again, experimental subjects of the High Evolutionary as a result of all the internal Marvel politics. I understand that current management are planning to emphasise Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver and Magneto’s family ties in 2020 – but plans may be on hold as a result of the WandaVision TV show on Disney+ so as not to confuse people further.

    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/08...ans-ms-marvel/
    Remember they put out an action figure set of Quicksilver, Magneto and Scarlet Witch called family matters this Summer. Lorna the only current member of said family other then Magneto was not included in it. Lorna is at real risk of having her parentage retconned or ignored again (both happened to her in the past).

    I do think there is a better then 50/50 chance they are heading straight towards House of M in the MCU. It would be very simple to bring Pietro back for it with a snap of the fingers, but Magneto and Lorna are much more questionable on how they integrate them. Lorna is the most expendable member because she was uninvolved in the story and often doesn't even get included in modern Marvel reproductions of the family from that universe.
    Last edited by jmc247; 09-05-2019 at 01:37 PM.

  7. #742

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    One of my mutuals on Twitter is particularly upset by the idea that Marvel might continue to disavow Wanda and Pietro as part of the family.

    As far as I'm concerned, this is another good argument for why many things owned by Disney, including these characters, should be public domain - and largely treated by fans as such even while they're not. Company politics, ego tripping, etc gets in the way of good stories and good character development and treatment. Having big names and millions of dollars means nothing if those things are poured into the wrong agenda. Why should "the official voice" be the one to decide anything when they don't use that influence toward improving themselves and culture as a whole? Owning the rights isn't a sufficient enough reason when Disney keeps abusing the legal system to artificially extend copyright past reasonable points.


    Emma Dumont returning for Gifted would be good. She's got the enthusiasm for the character and role. I'd hope she would give more pushback if the character got forced into directions that don't fit her, but given she's an actress and it's her work (and she's not in the household name realm of celebrity), I understand if she avoids doing that. It'd be bad for Lorna though, same as it was bad for Lorna in Gifted season 2. Alternately, most of the fancasts I've seen for Lorna involve Zoe Kravitz.
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  8. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    I think Wanda as a comic character has suffered since House of M due less from Decimation and more due to an upsetting of the divided custody arrangement she was long under. Bendis and Joe Q used Wanda as a tool first to realign the Avengers titles then to reduce the mutant population so they wouldn't really be involved in events like Civil War. But, traditionally the x-books and Avengers shared Wanda and Pietro so when one side of the franchise didn't want to use them they were handed to the other.

    Post HoM Wanda should have been handed to the x-office for awhile as Quicksilver was to PAD for their redemption. This wasn't allowed and was the genesis of the real conflict and anger that built and x-writers and x-fans took it out on Wanda. Eventually the Avengers side decided the politics were ripe with the Fox/Disney dispute going on to hard divorce the twins from anything mutant related and claim sole and exclusive rights to the characters. The x-books didn't have much to say about that because they were neutered and one bad step away from them going the way of the Fantastic Four at the time.

    Now Fox and Disney are one big happy family, the x-books are no longer in the dog house and suddenly I suspect the x-books wants the old understanding going back to the 60s back with the Avengers side over Wanda and Pietro. I wouldn't be surprised if the Avengers side isn't resisting that. The line in HoX was a strong and derisive way to remind the audience that Wanda has played a huge role in mutant events and it was designed to get people talking and fired up.

    The entire family has suffered in the comics for many years now because the Avengers side and the x-side haven't been able to get along and work together in regard to them as they did in the past. Wanda has suffered much more do to inter office turf conflicts then anything Bendis and Joe Q did to her a decade and a half ago. The sooner the retcon comes down and the old understanding between the x-titles and Avengers titles over the twins is returned the better for Wanda and the rest of the family for that matter.

    My hope is that they have an ongoing or maxiseries in the works to fix all this as if they don't I think the conflict that died down a number of years ago over Wanda is going to come back with a vengeance.
    Well, historically speaking Avengers Office did the most handling of Wanda, and X-Office didn't do much about her to make enough of an impact.
    And I honestly don't think she can be treated fairly in X-books even at that time, one of the core problems with AD/HoM is that they tore down Wanda's entire character to bare minimum, if Wanda went down that narrative and got a supposed redemption in X-books, there are chances she just came out even more unrecognizable. At least now I can just treat it like some kind of bad dream. I don't want potential years of her stories built upon ruins.
    (And really stuff like Son of M didn't give me much hope.)
    And nothing less of a Phoenix/Jean Grey ass pull can save her from that mess.(I am looking at you, Lore, come here and take the blame!)

    Huge role, as in a tiring labor for the rehash of Mutant Extinction Storylines.

    I just wish A/X-Office just claim their characters and treat them fairly, the retcon itself really didn't do much damage to Wanda, it's harmlessly annoying at best. I only want the retcon undone since Pietro could potentially benefit from it.
    I don't think it matters much for Wanda either way.
    Last edited by MaximoffTrash; 09-05-2019 at 09:57 PM.

  9. #744
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Wanda Maximoff has never been and will never be given to the X-offices. Ever.

  10. #745
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Wanda Maximoff has never been and will never be given to the X-offices. Ever.
    Given long term no.

    Though I am saying what I think should have happened in regard to her rehabilitation. It should have been shared with the x-office being allowed a storyline that deals with the Decimation fallout and the Avengers office focusing on the fallout from her wiping out the old Avengers.

    What should have been and what happened are two different things where the Avengers line controlled it all and insulted our intelligence with a contrived retcon Doom was the mastermind behind it all x-fans all but ignored. I personally suspect if their parentage is restored the big question is down to who controls the story the Avengers office and Brevoort. Who by the way detests Lorna's parentage and make that publicly known many times and outright ignores it in Avengers books or the x-office? I don't understand why they can't share honestly. Its not lose-win or win-lose its a win-win situation for both lines. No one line should control the family though.
    Last edited by jmc247; 09-05-2019 at 08:00 PM.

  11. #746

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    I've got it. Lorna and Pietro are Magneto's kids but Wanda isn't, Lorna and Wanda are sisters, and Wanda and Pietro are twins. Everybody wins!~
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  12. #747
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    The family has always been split editorially and probably always will be. But Wanda has always been the central priority among the children and has always been and will always be Avengers property.

    I've said it before, but I really don't think Marvel higher-ups these days give enough of a fuck about Lorna to sit around actively plotting to keep her out of events. She has just always been C-list and often an afterthought going back decades, it's that simple. I'm not saying that's right, but it is learned behavior. The truth is usually far more banal and less vindictive. As for The Gifted, frankly IMO it is another cosplay-level network TV superhero show that is not a good showcase for anyone. It may have a fanbase, that's fine, but in the eyes of the larger public it was poorly received and reviewed and quickly forgotten about. It is not the key to making Lorna a success. A strong showing in the new line, or if she happens to be used in the MCU, would be.

  13. #748
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    The family has always been split editorially and probably always will be. But Wanda has always been the central priority among the children and has always been and will always be Avengers property.

    I've said it before, but I really don't think Marvel higher-ups these days give enough of a fuck about Lorna to sit around actively plotting to keep her out of events. She has just always been C-list and often an afterthought going back decades, it's that simple. I'm not saying that's right, but it is learned behavior. The truth is usually far more banal and less vindictive. As for The Gifted, frankly IMO it is another cosplay-level network TV superhero show that is not a good showcase for anyone. It may have a fanbase, that's fine, but in the eyes of the larger public it was poorly received and reviewed and quickly forgotten about. It is not the key to making Lorna a success. A strong showing in the new line, or if she happens to be used in the MCU, would be.
    You weren't around 7 years ago when Tom Brevoort was bringing up Lorna a lot on his forumsprings account. Including explaining in DnA terms how Lorna isn't a real mutant and shouldn't be related to Magneto. That isn't a conspiracy theory even though we do have far too many conspiracy theories around. Its true that Brevoort sees Lorna as a C lister, but it was pretty clear he didn't like that she allowed the x-books to tell partial family stories on their own.

    As for Lorna getting into the MCU that is the only ticket at this point as increasingly the comics (outside of some stories and big events) are treated by Marvel as irrelevant or just promotional material for their films. The readership is too low these days to make a big impact outside of the occasional big crossover. In the meantime getting Lorna into games again is a must and needs a much bigger focus.
    Last edited by jmc247; 09-05-2019 at 08:10 PM.

  14. #749
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    You weren't around 7 years ago when Tom Brevoort was bringing up Lorna a lot on his forumsprings account. Including explaining in DnA terms how Lorna isn't a real mutant and should be related to Magneto. That isn't a conspiracy theory even though we do have too many conspiracy theories around.
    I know how Tom Brevoort can be, believe me. But that was also seven years ago, and I don't believe Brevoort is waving a scepter around micromanaging the X-Men or Jonathan Hickman these days. I just don't. His role is different, the company is different, Hickman is different.

    As for Lorna getting into the MCU that is the only ticket at this point as increasingly the comics (outside of some stories and big events) are treated by Marvel as irrelevant or just promotional material for their films.
    Not necessarily. They take cues from a lot of recent material when it's popular (DnA/GOTG, Carol/CM, Jane Foster/Love & Thunder, Planet Hulk/Ragnarok, etc), and the X-Men are now 'home' and getting a big push again. I would not be at all surprised to see the future X-films based around a mesh of Claremont, Hickman, etc. and that's where use of Lorna or anyone else becomes newly relevant. It's DC where the books are now wholly irrelevant to their messy company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    I know how Tom Brevoort can be, believe me. But that was also seven years ago, and I don't believe Brevoort is waving a scepter around micromanaging the X-Men or Jonathan Hickman these days. I just don't. His role is different, the company is different, Hickman is different.
    I never said he was, but I will say if he controls the family stories to come once the retcon is down and the X-Men are cut out of it then I believe Lorna will be kept out. Lorna was kept out of every Avengers family story he oversaw including Axis where her connection to the family was cut.

    It was funny last decade and early this decade because in the cosmic books Lorna's parentage was respected, same for the x-books or at least the ones Lorna was in, not the Heroes titles once.

    As for Marvel comics not mattering, you missed my addendum of "some stories as in critically acclaimed ones and big events) that covers your point. As a poster I like some of your ideas, but I also think your style is too come on too strong. How about a nice discussion instead of a confrontation.
    Last edited by jmc247; 09-05-2019 at 08:24 PM.

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