Magnus Family Appreciation 2019

[powerpax]

Okay, I haven't read it in twenty years so are you going to quote it and explain or is this another cryptic thing? Because I can't understand your point if you don't say what you mean.

[salarta]

In this case, I just thought that what I was getting at was already known and elaborating wouldn't do much good. I'll say more but may not go much further about it after.

The Killing Joke is considered a highly influential Batman comic, for many a must-read. It completely changed the future of Barbara Gordon and the Batgirl concept going forward, and took part in building up Joker as a menace. Yet... today, it's really not considered all that good. It's one of Gail Simone's most hated storylines, something she's said only happened out of deep disrespect toward women and female characters. Even Alan Moore himself regrets having written it. The animated short based on it got a mixed reception, and most of the criticism centered on how poorly it treated Barbara Gordon. There's also the infamous Joker variant cover for Batgirl inspired by Killing Joke that got so much backlash, DC ended up canceling the variant.

There are arguments about whether what happened to Barbara Gordon following Killing Joke was good or bad. Ultimately, the only reason she persisted as Oracle, and Oracle stories had much worth, was writers trying to do what they could with her in spite of Killing Joke, not because of it. And the Killing Joke storyline itself really is a prime example of comics treating women like objects and victims to advance the stories of men. Barbara lost decades of time as Batgirl to largely acting as support for other heroes, and having the Batgirl mantle used by other characters before reclaiming it this decade.

None of this is to say the current X-Men event has sexism problems like those in Killing Joke (at least so far, from what I've seen). I bring it up as an example of something that has always been considered an essential Batman story, that shaped stories after it ever since, but which time has shown was terrible treatment of Barbara Gordon and has aged poorly. An event/story getting major investment and possibly shaping future stories isn't always good enough.

[powerpax]

Okay, but what does Killing Joke's legacy have to do with anything that has materially occurred in House of X? What specifically about this event makes that relevant? Who is being treated horribly in it, in your opinion? Assuming you are now reading House of X yourself.

[Witchfan]

A book in which the Magnus family appeared is in trouble:

Brazilian Mayor Blasts Marvel, Orders Police 'Sweep' of Young Avengers Book
https://www.cbr.com/brazil-mayor-rio...-avengers-ban/

[Rivka]

A book in which the Magnus family appeared is in trouble:

Brazilian Mayor Blasts Marvel, Orders Police 'Sweep' of Young Avengers Book
https://www.cbr.com/brazil-mayor-rio...-avengers-ban/

I was just going to post this! It's not trouble for the comic or for Marvel!

This is the bigoted homophobic mayor of Rio vs Marvel and a member of our beloved Magnus Family!

Or, in headline form,Homophobic Mayor of Rio sweeps up copies of YOUNG AVENGERS featuring a gay kiss. (Between two characters who have been in a loving relationship for years.)

I am so proud of Marvel! And Wiccan, Magneto's grandson! Keep up the good work Marvel, screw the mayor or Rio.

Parenthetically, I wonder if any right-wing zealots in the US will get any ideas? All that kind of publicity does is increase Marvel's sales and prestige!

[juan678]

[juan678]

https://www.cbr.com/marvel-house-of-...mystery-event/

[H-E-D]

There are arguments about whether what happened to Barbara Gordon following Killing Joke was good or bad. Ultimately, the only reason she persisted as Oracle, and Oracle stories had much worth, was writers trying to do what they could with her in spite of Killing Joke, not because of it. And the Killing Joke storyline itself really is a prime example of comics treating women like objects and victims to advance the stories of men. Barbara lost decades of time as Batgirl to largely acting as support for other heroes, and having the Batgirl mantle used by other characters before reclaiming it this decade.

I mean, I'm torn, because I also don't think the Killing Joke is very good, but I also think the work that Gail Simone and others did for Barbara as Oracle elevated the character to a better, more compelling place than she ever had as Batgirl, and that's there's been no substantial gain from having Babs back as Batgirl.

I believe it would've been far better to keep Babs as Oracle, but to create a new story as to how she ended up in the chair, a story that was about her.

[salarta]

Okay, but what does Killing Joke's legacy have to do with anything that has materially occurred in House of X? What specifically about this event makes that relevant? Who is being treated horribly in it, in your opinion? Assuming you are now reading House of X yourself.

Your "you must be reading this" criteria makes saying much else a moot point, at least at this juncture.

I mean, I'm torn, because I also don't think the Killing Joke is very good, but I also think the work that Gail Simone and others did for Barbara as Oracle elevated the character to a better, more compelling place than she ever had as Batgirl, and that's there's been no substantial gain from having Babs back as Batgirl.

I believe it would've been far better to keep Babs as Oracle, but to create a new story as to how she ended up in the chair, a story that was about her.

I disagree about no substantial gain from Barbara as Batgirl. As Oracle, she rarely got any noteworthy use - at least in anything I saw, which was mostly cartoons, video games and films. All the notable depictions of her have been as Batgirl, even during the time when she was Oracle in the comics.

I've seen various views about her as Oracle, both for and against. For my view, there are certainly ways that what happened to her could be salvaged and transformed into something amazing that wasn't possible with her as Batgirl. Sort of like how I've suggested going into Polaris' history and giving it a complete overhaul that's good for her. But, that wouldn't change her lower profile and lost opportunities up to present. I look at how Supergirl's had at least 5 volumes of solo books, and a TV show going on its fifth season, and can't help wondering if Batgirl might've gotten the same if Killing Joke never happened.

[H-E-D]

I disagree about no substantial gain from Barbara as Batgirl. As Oracle, she rarely got any noteworthy use - at least in anything I saw, which was mostly cartoons, video games and films. All the notable depictions of her have been as Batgirl, even during the time when she was Oracle in the comics.

I've seen various views about her as Oracle, both for and against. For my view, there are certainly ways that what happened to her could be salvaged and transformed into something amazing that wasn't possible with her as Batgirl. Sort of like how I've suggested going into Polaris' history and giving it a complete overhaul that's good for her. But, that wouldn't change her lower profile and lost opportunities up to present. I look at how Supergirl's had at least 5 volumes of solo books, and a TV show going on its fifth season, and can't help wondering if Batgirl might've gotten the same if Killing Joke never happened.

Oh, well, I was referring to the comics, as that's what I'm most familiar with. Barbara got a lot of exposure in the comics as Oracle, not only in Birds of Prey, but in the Bat-line and DC universe as a whole. As much or, frankly, more than as Batgirl. As far as comics stories go, the number of notable Barbara Gordon as Oracle stories is at least equal to her as Batgirl, and seem beloved in a way none of her Batgirl stories really seem to be. As Oracle, she was a lot more important to the lager fabric of the DC Universe. Far from losing opportunities to show up, she gained them.

The thing is, Babs as Oracle didn't prevent Batgirl comics from being made. There were a lot of Cassandra Cain (and later Stephanie Brown) Batgirl comics. So, it isn't a case where the Batgirl name went unleveraged.


Anyways, we've probably digressed enough for a Polaris thread.

[powerpax]

Barbara as Oracle was hugely popular with fans for many years, and as a fan with a disability I know how much she meant to a lot of people in terms of that issue. I'll wager you'll find only so many folks outside DC Comics who don't consider regressing her back to the tights to be a mistake - it was certainly seen as such at the time. Killing Joke's treatment of Barbara is a separate issue, but Oracle was a fantastic choice that grew out of it afterwards. That's all I'll say about that since it is OT. So, back to that:

Your "you must be reading this" criteria makes saying much else a moot point, at least at this juncture.

Yes. IMO it doesn't make sense to make veiled and non-explicit claims about how HoX is problematic or doing nothing new, or that your favorite character shouldn't be a part of it, when you're not actually reading the book and you won't say what you mean. If you won't do that and won't read it either, I'm not sure what we're supposed to take from that that is valid.

[salarta]

Yes. IMO it doesn't make sense to make veiled and non-explicit claims about how HoX is problematic or doing nothing new, or that your favorite character shouldn't be a part of it, when you're not actually reading the book and you won't say what you mean. If you won't do that and won't read it either, I'm not sure what we're supposed to take from that that is valid.

We've been over this, though. If I elaborate, "you're not reading the book" is used to be dismissive regardless of if I'm wrong about something or it fits what's been seen. So there's no reason to elaborate unless I really want/need to.


Anyway, fandom time!



Another great piece by daaesart.



Polaris by venomf



By scarlet-silver-maximoff on Tumblr. I decided to change it up a bit and post one of the many fun imaginary interactions that fans write up about the family.

[powerpax]

If I elaborate, "you're not reading the book" is used to be dismissive regardless of if I'm wrong about something or it fits what's been seen. So there's no reason to elaborate unless I really want/need to.

Yes, and if you don't elaborate, no one can understand your points or discuss the issues you say should be addressed. And if you don't read the books you're not necessarily getting the full picture, either. If you only want the superficial appearance of making a vague stand about something that's fine, but you need to be prepared for people not noticing because you don't actually want to talk about it.

[jmc247]

Also a picture of an oil painting in action.

[jmc247]

There is a lot of overlap between Magneto fans (more of the modern generation then the older generation though some of the old) and Polaris fans. Though it will be interesting to see if Marvel can find a way of allowing them to work together without it becoming building one up to tear the other down and having their voices each reflect their histories. Well, Hickman's first shot at that comes in October in X-Men #1.



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