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  1. #1
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    Default Curios discussion: Krakoa/Brexit/Nationalism?

    Short version; IDEOLOGICALLY speaking (not in terms of historical parallel) I’m curious how readers regard Charles Xaviet’s New direction in relation to recent issues such as Brexit or Trump’s wall? Or nationalism in general?

    On the one hand: politically, there seems to be a peaceful intent, what with one of the main laws of Krakoa being “Kill No Man.” Can we take this literally? Or is it meant to be viewed as something rather patronising or just obligatory?

    I contrast: what are the ideological differences between Krakoa’s interest in closed borders and focus on ‘mutants first’ as opposed to harmonised co-existence and Brexit or Nationalism in general?

    Speaking personally: I’ve been told that a focus on traditional nationalism as opposed to cultural integration and melding is bad and closed minded: is that because people focus on ‘what is’ rather than ‘what can be’?’ Or is it truly the idea of insulation that was bad?

    For clarification, I’m not trying to cause a fight, especially in regards to users users personal politics; I’m just struggling to make sense of the general
    View point and such? (In regard to the narrative, that is, not irl; I firmly believe that we all benefit from experiencing each other’s cultures and integrating when we can as opposed to separating ourselves...which is NOT the same as ‘assimilation,’ I feel is worth saying.
    Last edited by Domino_Dare-Doll; 10-08-2019 at 10:50 PM. Reason: Clarification: DO NOT WANT TO CAUSE DISCOURSE

  2. #2
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    Lol so I'm not the only one. I can totally see nationalism subtext in Hickman's run. Particularly, in today's issue, there is a spoilers:
    discussion between Moira and the Librarian talking about survival competition between the mutants and human
    end of spoilers instantly reminds me of some popular ideology and concept of the first half of 20 century such as Lebensraum, Social Darwinism and Nazi Germany. I'm sorry I don't want to pick a fight either I just can't unsee it.

  3. #3
    Fantastic Member bladeofdarkness's Avatar
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    Actually, the reference that strikes most closely in my mind is actually Zionism more then anything else.
    You've got a bunch of people who have been systematically abused by just about every nation they tried living in, and they're solution is basically "make our own" nation instead of trying to integrate into other ones.

    This is unlike traditional Nationalism and Brexit, as both of these concepts imply there already exist nation of your own, and resisting to attempts to change it from outside.

    The role Jerusalm plays in parts of the story should be a clue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
    Actually, the reference that strikes most closely in my mind is actually Zionism more then anything else.
    You've got a bunch of people who have been systematically abused by just about every nation they tried living in, and they're solution is basically "make our own" nation instead of trying to integrate into other ones.

    This is unlike traditional Nationalism and Brexit, as both of these concepts imply there already exist nation of your own, and resisting to attempts to change it from outside.

    The role Jerusalm plays in parts of the story should be a clue.
    I think I understand; but I’m still concerned as to how Charles new view of outright domination factors into that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I think I understand; but I’m still concerned as to how Charles new view of outright domination factors into that?
    Thats not a thing.

    Comparison to zionism are accurate albeit unfortunate.
    Mutants forming their own nation is every rl minority dream of getting the f away from constant abuse.

  6. #6

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    There is a problem with doing comparisons to a place like Britain. Mutants have never had any political power that was recognized by the world, never.

    A better analogy for this is if the Native Americans who have been grossly oppressed and killed by Europeans finally got fed up and they all committed to a mass exodus to Greenland and declared Greenland a united Native American nation and they were able to produce something that was highly desired by the rest of the world that would give them enough political clout to be recognized by the United Nations.

    Mutants are under constant threat of genocide and their future seems to indicate that every possible outcome leads to their genocide. The only way to survive this is to get away from the humans that want to do this to them. They need to create a well defended nation and hope that they can come up with enough defences to protect themselves from the humans that want to kill and exterminate them.
    We are MUTANT..Krakoa, FOREVER!!! “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    Thats not a thing.

    Comparison to zionism are accurate albeit unfortunate.
    Mutants forming their own nation is every rl minority dream of getting the f away from constant abuse.
    So you wouldn’t say that these are notes of supremacy we’re seeing from Charles and characters like Magneto, Polaris, the cuckoo’s etc?

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Nationalism has its good and its bad side. Just because the bad side is in the news lately (Brexit, and the Populist autocrats around the world) doesn't mean that the good side should be dismissed out of sight.

    I mean right now, you have the situation of the Kurds, a persecuted group by Turkey, Iraq, Syria and others stabbed in the back by America for what is apparently the 8th straight time. The Kurds have been fighting ISIS as ground troops off-setting the need for American boots on the ground (controversial since Iraq) and in exchange for that, they are now been left to die at the hands of Turkey and Russia by USA. Nobody would compare Kurdish nationalism with Brexit.

    That's not far from Xavier's speech where he points out that the X-Men have saved the humans time and time again, defended them from other evil mutants, and in exchange they get nothing.

    Krakoan Nationalism is fundamentally different from Brexit and others kinds. The message of Krakoa isn't "Make Genosha Great Again" or any such thing. It's not a return to some golden age. It's about going forward, creating a new culture, a new society, of mutants working together and bringing their creativity and ingenuity to the table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    There is a problem with doing comparisons to a place like Britain. Mutants have never had any political power that was recognized by the world, never.

    A better analogy for this is if the Native Americans who have been grossly oppressed and killed by Europeans finally got fed up and they all committed to a mass exodus to Greenland and declared Greenland a united Native American nation and they were able to produce something that was highly desired by the rest of the world that would give them enough political clout to be recognized by the United Nations.

    Mutants are under constant threat of genocide and their future seems to indicate that every possible outcome leads to their genocide. The only way to survive this is to get away from the humans that want to do this to them. They need to create a well defended nation and hope that they can come up with enough defences to protect themselves from the humans that want to kill and exterminate them.
    Which is why I asked in regards of general ideology, not political clout historic or otherwise: I can understand the tight border control and security measures, as you said, due to the constant threat of extinction, but Charles declaring himself superior to humanity still rings too close to nationalism to me. He’s looking down his nose, now, rather than seeking to further educate from a safer vantage: he’s happy to wait out humanity’s extinction in the same vein that an aristocrat might have their stock of slaves “Oh, well, we won’t harm them but let’s be honest, they aren’t REALLY civilised...” (Which makes me feel so gross to type, lemme tell ya.)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    There is a problem with doing comparisons to a place like Britain. Mutants have never had any political power that was recognized by the world, never.

    A better analogy for this is if the Native Americans who have been grossly oppressed and killed by Europeans finally got fed up and they all committed to a mass exodus to Greenland and declared Greenland a united Native American nation and they were able to produce something that was highly desired by the rest of the world that would give them enough political clout to be recognized by the United Nations.

    Mutants are under constant threat of genocide and their future seems to indicate that every possible outcome leads to their genocide. The only way to survive this is to get away from the humans that want to do this to them. They need to create a well defended nation and hope that they can come up with enough defences to protect themselves from the humans that want to kill and exterminate them.
    If coexistence is a foregone conclusion then I’m interested to see why mutants are barring themselves from the inevitable rather than trying to advance offworld. The old adage of adapt or die loses a lot of meaning when the less competitive species can develop a new niche on another planet. There’s nothing saying that mutants can’t thrive as an invasive species lol

    It’s probably a plot thing so if it doesn’t get answer it’s fine but hopefully it’s explained why that’s not an option.
    Last edited by chief12d; 10-09-2019 at 05:42 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Nationalism has its good and its bad side. Just because the bad side is in the news lately (Brexit, and the Populist autocrats around the world) doesn't mean that the good side should be dismissed out of sight.

    I mean right now, you have the situation of the Kurds, a persecuted group by Turkey, Iraq, Syria and others stabbed in the back by America for what is apparently the 8th straight time. The Kurds have been fighting ISIS as ground troops off-setting the need for American boots on the ground (controversial since Iraq) and in exchange for that, they are now been left to die at the hands of Turkey and Russia by USA. Nobody would compare Kurdish nationalism with Brexit.

    That's not far from Xavier's speech where he points out that the X-Men have saved the humans time and time again, defended them from other evil mutants, and in exchange they get nothing.

    Krakoan Nationalism is fundamentally different from Brexit and others kinds. The message of Krakoa isn't "Make Genosha Great Again" or any such thing. It's not a return to some golden age. It's about going forward, creating a new culture, a new society, of mutants working together and bringing their creativity and ingenuity to the table.

    Ok now see, THAT I understand a bit better now, Thankyou!

    I’m still not sure that I can fully separate some of Krakoa’s nationalism from issues like Brexit or Trump (specifically in regards to how characters like Emma and Polaris speak of humans, as if down their noses...but that isn’t strange for those characters anyway.) Perhaps there are meant to be two views on it present in narrative?

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Ok now see, THAT I understand a bit better now, Thankyou!

    I’m still not sure that I can fully separate some of Krakoa’s nationalism from issues like Brexit or Trump (specifically in regards to how characters like Emma and Polaris speak of humans, as if down their noses...but that isn’t strange for those characters anyway.) Perhaps there are meant to be two views on it present in narrative?
    Perhaps.

    Krakoa is meant to be ambivalent. There's stuff going on under the surface and so on. So on one hand, Krakoa is a nation but Krakoa is also a mutant being, a living island. If Krakoa says I don't want you here...then there's no nation.

    Likewise, Krakoa is about persecuted minorities coming together and showing the world they are something...but there's also colonialism metaphors like the Hellfire Trading Company modelled on the East India company, which was imperial in its mission.

    Xavier wants Krakoa drugs supplied into markets that don't open to free trade. That's what the Opium Wars were all about.

  13. #13
    Moo-tant? Ultimate Rogue's Avatar
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    Hmm, It's complicated.....

    Todays PoX adds the real motivation for it all now, so things have changed.

    This simplifying Brexit down to boo hiss nationalism and closing the boarders, is a very disingenuous. Sure some will of voted to close the boarders, and others for other reasons, but most, I think voted for Brexit after 20 years of ridiculous stories of puzzling governance decisions made by a 'seemingly' undemocratically appointed politicians that lived too far away in other nations (whom had checkered histories and successes themselves).

    The Quiet Council could be compared to how the British populace view the European Union. 'Undemocratically' appointed, dubious and distant from the majority of mutants.

    I had more to say on the matter before this PoX issue came out, and that it's late here and I'd best not work myself up before bed,
    but it's complicated......

  14. #14
    Fantastic Member The Thunderbird's Avatar
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    I've heard several sources that one of the causes of nationalism, tribalism, and xenophobia is in fact death anxiety. Many people fear and hate others because they are afraid of getting killed by them and it even goes beyond that. I've heard of studies signifying that people when reminded of death tend to turn more tribal because they hope to belong to something that is beyond them. With the constant dangers haunting Marvel Earth from not just mutant villains but even regular villains like Galactus and Ultron it might even make sense why anti-mutant sentiments get so violent.

    One thing about Krakoa is that the Five have a way for mutants to avoid death anxiety entirely. While many mutants would like to celebrate a nation that promises to keep them safe, the fact that they might not even have to worry about death anymore could actually help cut away the dangers excess nationalism would bring out in mortals. Heck, if all of humanity was covered by the resurrection plan then the fear of getting replaced by mutants or destroyed by them would evaporate overnight and with the death anxiety taken away it may even be possible to eradicate anti-mutant sentiment among the humans simply by making them all immortal. I've seen one experiment where people had to pretend they were completely invulnerable and the conservatives actually turned more socially liberal as a result.

  15. #15
    Mighty Member CGAR's Avatar
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    Humans arent even letting mutants leave to Krakoa by gateway going by the preview in Maruaders.

    Humans in the comicverse are so bipolar.

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