View Poll Results: Do you love him?

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  1. #6001
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AHRNIHAL View Post
    Attachment 83761

    You know what this means.
    What do you think it means?
    Ranking of favorite characters
    Phoenix/Jean, Cyclops, Wolverine, Storm

    My ships: Jean/Scott, Wanda/Vision, Scott/Logan, Rogue/Gambit, Storm/Black Panther.
    I have very biased opinions and i like to voice for the things i like but I'm not trying to deppreciate other things. The line is thin and blur sometimes.

  2. #6002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan D. White View Post
    I always forget that X-Men fans are X-Men fans because they are also mindreaders. :P
    This particular thread isn't so much a Cyclops appreciation thread as a "RightClops" (Morrison-era through Bendis-era) appreciation thread. The majority of active posters here view "BoyScott" (pre-Morrison Cyclops) as a feckless, castrated wimp. He didn't start to become remotely interesting for them until he cheated on Jean with Emma. They view the Utopia period as the character's finest hour and the pinnacle of the franchise with his killing of Xavier in AvX as an awesome, entirely justified act of subversive anti-heroism.

    They don't respond well to any suggestion, regardless of how nuanced or reasoned, that RightClops made mistakes or ever, ever did wrong. Hence their response to your tweet and that article. Hence the perpetual ranting against Rosenberg's portrayal of the character.

    Arguing with them is pointless. You won't change their minds so don't bother trying.

    When viewing/posting in this thread, gauge accordingly.

  3. #6003
    Mighty Member RachelGrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    This particular thread isn't so much a Cyclops appreciation thread as a "RightClops" (Morrison-era through Bendis-era) appreciation thread. The majority of active posters here view "BoyScott" (pre-Morrison Cyclops) as a feckless, castrated wimp. He didn't start to become remotely interesting for them until he cheated on Jean with Emma. They view the Utopia period as the character's finest hour and the pinnacle of the franchise with his killing of Xavier in AvX as an awesome, entirely justified act of subversive anti-heroism.

    They don't respond well to any suggestion, regardless of how nuanced or reasoned, that RightClops made mistakes or ever, ever did wrong. Hence their response to your tweet and that article. Hence the perpetual ranting against Rosenberg's portrayal of the character.

    Arguing with them is pointless. You won't change their minds so don't bother trying.

    When viewing/posting in this thread, gauge accordingly.
    I disagree with you. I have liked Scott since I started reading around Giant Size X-Men. A lot of the 60's history is hokey like it is for all comics. That was a time when all the comics were ground down under the censorship of the Comics Code Authority, a bunch of prudish parents that believed that Comics were corrupting their children and turning them into free love hippies or turning them gay. The Comics Code Authority was censorship and there is no getting around it.

    Comics started getting better when writers started pushing the limits and making the characters feel more real. Scott was allowed to grieve for a long time when Jean/Phoenix died the first time. He was allowed to grieve, he was allowed to grow as a character and change.

    Jean was allowed to have a darker side and not just be a "good girl" all the time. Women are allowed to get angry, women are human just like men and can be tempted just like men can be. Jean and Logan had a will they won't they thing going for years and it made them interesting characters because it made them more dynamic and human.

    Scott and Emma worked sometimes, sometimes they didn't. There was also an underlying pathos there, Emma knew Scott still pined for Jean and sometimes it bothered her. Their relationship had rough spots. There was a good chance if Jean came back during the Utopia years that Emma and Scott would have broken up right then. But there is also a good chance that Emma would have stayed anyway because she developed friendships with Rogue, Storm, and Logan and felt like she was part of the team.

    I liked Utopia because it was a change, I wanted mutants to have a bit more control over their destiny and Utopia worked better than Genosha because instead of Magneto being in charge, Scott was in charge and he is a better leader than Magneto.

    I am not invested in who Scott ends up with, he can be with Jean, or he can be with Emma, it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is that Scott is a good leader, he is experienced, and he is one of the best leaders the X-Men has ever had. I would put Scott and Storm as two of the best X-Men leaders and I think they should both be leading a team.

    I totally agree that the killing Xavier thing was not good. It was Marvel trying to make the "mutants" look worse than the "Avengers" because of synergy with the movies. X-Men were still outselling the Avengers, and Marvel didn't like that they were practically advertising for the Fox movies so they wanted to reduce the popularity of the X-Men so we had AvX and IvX to do that. The reason people say Cyclops was right is simple, he was right, Hope should have been the Phoenix Host all along because in the end of the series she undid the Decimation by becoming the Phoenix Host, which is exactly what Scott and the rest of the X-Men wanted. If the Avengers had just let Hope have the Phoenix right from the start none of the crap that happened would have happened. So in the end the Avengers were idiots and Scott and the X-Men were right.

    I am not going to blame Scott for killing Xavier when he was crazy with the Phoenix power which wasn't meant for him anyway. He didn't ask to become Phoenix, it was forced on him when Tony Stark shot the Phoenix and divided it into 5. They even showed scenes of Emma struggling and realizing that all of them were losing themselves in the Phoenix and she was afraid of what they were becoming because of it.

    I get that people hate Emma Frost, I get it. But Scott and Jean are not saints, and they shouldn't be saints, they should be human characters with strengths and flaws. The funny thing is I love all three of them and I want to see all of them continue on an ongoing basis. I don't need them to be on the same book, but I think the X-Men is a much richer series with Scott, Jean, and Emma as part of it.

  4. #6004
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    This particular thread isn't so much a Cyclops appreciation thread as a "RightClops" (Morrison-era through Bendis-era) appreciation thread. The majority of active posters here view "BoyScott" (pre-Morrison Cyclops) as a feckless, castrated wimp. He didn't start to become remotely interesting for them until he cheated on Jean with Emma. They view the Utopia period as the character's finest hour and the pinnacle of the franchise with his killing of Xavier in AvX as an awesome, entirely justified act of subversive anti-heroism.

    They don't respond well to any suggestion, regardless of how nuanced or reasoned, that RightClops made mistakes or ever, ever did wrong. Hence their response to your tweet and that article. Hence the perpetual ranting against Rosenberg's portrayal of the character.

    Arguing with them is pointless. You won't change their minds so don't bother trying.

    When viewing/posting in this thread, gauge accordingly.
    Cyclops was my favorite character long before Morrison and Whedon got to him.

    The problem is that Marvel has been dedicated, since Schism, to try to paint Cyclops not only as wrong, but someone that has gone evil and needing of redemption for...reasons that weren't specified, even though none of that makes sense, because the actions of the people opposing him were absurd and the motives laughable at best and completely inconsistent with the history of the X-men. Even JDW himself in an interview (might have been Rosenberg, though) when asked what exactly he did wrong, only pointed him killing Xavier, even though it's absurd to blame him for that (and anyone suggesting that Jean killing billions should get the same treatment would get laughed at).

    And not only that, we know the reason is that first of all Marvel wanted to make Wolverine as Xavier (and the good guy) and Cyclops as Magneto (and the bad guy, even if a sympathetic one)-Aaron even said this explicitly in interviews- so to return to the status quo after years of going in a new direction.

    In the top of that, we have the Terrigen era, which was the worst nightmare of any Cyclops fan personified-he's killed, off-panel, and having even his best friends describing him as unimaginably evil for...reasons that weren't specified.

    And then he returns- after he gets "redeemed" by having Emma thrown off the bus in a story that reeks of sexism- we have all the character progress he made in the last decade completely ignored and rather than a warm welcome from the (few) X-men left, he gets indifference and even his own brother blaming him for the dire state of mutantkind, even though when we last saw him, he was running a mutant nation and leading a successful peace march.

  5. #6005
    Read Messiah Complex fsger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post


    And then he returns- after he gets "redeemed" by having Emma thrown off the bus in a story that reeks of sexism- we have all the character progress he made in the last decade completely ignored and rather than a warm welcome from the (few) X-men left, he gets indifference and even his own brother blaming him for the dire state of mutantkind, even though when we last saw him, he was running a mutant nation and leading a successful peace march.
    For many Scott's falls from grace started with Emma. Emma going crazy was an obvious, predictable and deserved outcome. Nobody is being nostalgic or sexist, this is her natural progression. Sometimes to get better you have to cut the problem and for Scott that is Emma.
    Cyclops has been more obssesed with Jean than the other way around. In popular culture he is only the guy between Jean and Logan.

    I think some of you guys might be downplaying Jean's decades long emotional affair with Logan. Its a pretty well know and adapted relationship, even if its not traditional.

  6. #6006
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    I totally agree that the killing Xavier thing was not good. It was Marvel trying to make the "mutants" look worse than the "Avengers" because of synergy with the movies. X-Men were still outselling the Avengers, and Marvel didn't like that they were practically advertising for the Fox movies so they wanted to reduce the popularity of the X-Men so we had AvX and IvX to do that. The reason people say Cyclops was right is simple, he was right, Hope should have been the Phoenix Host all along because in the end of the series she undid the Decimation by becoming the Phoenix Host, which is exactly what Scott and the rest of the X-Men wanted. If the Avengers had just let Hope have the Phoenix right from the start none of the crap that happened would have happened. So in the end the Avengers were idiots and Scott and the X-Men were right..


    I am not going to blame Scott for killing Xavier when he was crazy with the Phoenix power which wasn't meant for him anyway. He didn't ask to become Phoenix, it was forced on him when Tony Stark shot the Phoenix and divided it into 5. They even showed scenes of Emma struggling and realizing that all of them were losing themselves in the Phoenix and she was afraid of what they were becoming because of it.
    This is it, and while Marvel refused to admit those simple facts, any attempt of trying to push Cyclops in a "redemption" or a return to a more "classic" mind-set that implies or says he was wrong will be met with hostility by most fans. Hell, even during the event, Bendis wrote an Avengers issue in which Reed tells the Avengers to stop poking the bear and that they are jealous.

    I'm not sure if someone's ego there was hurt when the vast majority of people begun to respond in the exact opposite way Marvel wanted in AvX (or Schism, for that matter) and that leads to people at Marvel being afraid of admitting it, or if they want a return to "classic" Cyclops and feel that he has to say he was wrong, forget Emma, say no more killing ever, etc, or it has another reason entirely, but until they either just admit Cyclops was right or, alternatively, drop the issue entirely and stop having characters whining about him (including himself), most fans remain pissed.

  7. #6007
    Mighty Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AHRNIHAL View Post
    Attachment 83761

    You know what this means.
    Uh ... Revolutionary Scott is "Face the future" and not "Fear the future"?

    I do not get another interpretation.

  8. #6008
    Mighty Member RachelGrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Cyclops was my favorite character long before Morrison and Whedon got to him.

    The problem is that Marvel has been dedicated, since Schism, to try to paint Cyclops not only as wrong, but someone that has gone evil and needing of redemption for...reasons that weren't specified, even though none of that makes sense, because the actions of the people opposing him were absurd and the motives laughable at best and completely inconsistent with the history of the X-men. Even JDW himself in an interview (might have been Rosenberg, though) when asked what exactly he did wrong, only pointed him killing Xavier, even though it's absurd to blame him for that (and anyone suggesting that Jean killing billions should get the same treatment would get laughed at).

    And not only that, we know the reason is that first of all Marvel wanted to make Wolverine as Xavier (and the good guy) and Cyclops as Magneto (and the bad guy, even if a sympathetic one)-Aaron even said this explicitly in interviews- so to return to the status quo after years of going in a new direction.

    In the top of that, we have the Terrigen era, which was the worst nightmare of any Cyclops fan personified-he's killed, off-panel, and having even his best friends describing him as unimaginably evil for...reasons that weren't specified.

    And then he returns- after he gets "redeemed" by having Emma thrown off the bus in a story that reeks of sexism- we have all the character progress he made in the last decade completely ignored and rather than a warm welcome from the (few) X-men left, he gets indifference and even his own brother blaming him for the dire state of mutantkind, even though when we last saw him, he was running a mutant nation and leading a successful peace march.
    Also, the current story is hideously bleak. Characters are dying in a way that has nothing to do with them personally and everything to do with making things more and more bleak for Scott and Logan. All Rosenberg is doing is making me hate humans so much that I just wish Dark Beast and Sinister would create a plague that would kill all the baseline humans in the Marvel Universe. The current run feels like it is Rachel's 811 nightmare come to life and that we'll end the series with all the mutants being put in a frigging concentration camp and Callahan growing a Hitler mustache just to match the imagery even more.

    That is the reason I hate Rosenberg's run, it feels like every ounce of hope has gone out of the characters. After AvX and Cyclops, Emma, and Magneto went to Canada to form their own group, I liked that series too. They were not getting along, but they were trying to set aside their differences and work together to rescue mutants. I loved how Scott and Emma stood up to Logan about the the O5 and said that the younger versions should decide on their own what they would do. It wasn't like Scott and Emma didn't think the O5 should go back to the past, they just felt that it was wrong to force them to go back and that everyone should let them decide to go back when they were ready. I loved how Emma befriended young Jeen and taught her to use her powers to their fullest, and demonstrated how restrictive and controlling Xavier had been all those years. Jeen didn't go crazy, she didn't try to destroy everyone, she was human, she had successes and she had mistakes, but she stood on her own because she got out of Xavier's shadow. Young Scott had an opportunity to join the Starjammers and go on an adventure with his father which was older Scott's greatest dream.

    Even at the darkest hour I still felt that Scott was a hero.

    At least during the Utopia and Canada period I felt there was still an underlying hope in the X-books. Now with Uncanny I just feel like all the hope has gone out of the world and it just makes me feel sorry for Scott, Illyana, Karma, Jamie, Rahne, Emma, Logan, Sean, and even Hope. It was ok to read Days of Future Past as a short mini-series, but having an entire year of that hopeless feeling is a bit much to take.

  9. #6009

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    The problem is that Marvel has been dedicated, since Schism, to try to paint Cyclops not only as wrong, but someone that has gone evil and needing of redemption for...reasons that weren't specified, even though none of that makes sense, because the actions of the people opposing him were absurd and the motives laughable at best and completely inconsistent with the history of the X-men. Even JDW himself in an interview (might have been Rosenberg, though) when asked what exactly he did wrong, only pointed him killing Xavier, even though it's absurd to blame him for that (and anyone suggesting that Jean killing billions should get the same treatment would get laughed at).
    I actually have a very specific reason I think Cyclops needed redemption, and it was something from before before Schism. It's a reason I believe in with my whole heart and feel very strongly about, but which I cannot divulge because of upcoming stories. Hazards of working in the industry--protecting future stories is more important than clarifying your position on old ones.

    Suffice it to say, I don't think killing Xavier was Cyclops going wrong, I think it was the extreme outcome of him going wrong.

  10. #6010
    Mighty Member Glio's Avatar
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    He already had his redemption in Uncanny X-Men # 600 anyway. And if it is not absolutely obvious what Scott did SO bad is probably not so bad. If I had to bet, I would say that Jordan is referring to something with Vulcan and Xavier.
    Last edited by Glio; 06-24-2019 at 09:49 AM.

  11. #6011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan D. White View Post
    I actually have a very specific reason I think Cyclops needed redemption, and it was something from before before Schism. It's a reason I believe in with my whole heart and feel very strongly about, but which I cannot divulge because of upcoming stories. Hazards of working in the industry--protecting future stories is more important than clarifying your position on old ones.
    It's about the whole psychic affair thing? If so, yeah, it was wrong, but it's not like he was in a good state of mind to begin with (nor Jean was blameless in their marriage problems) or it's something that there should be any "redemption"- even because that would just make one of Scott's problems (feels inferior and undeserving of Jean) much worse, and I think he should just move on from that (Jean too).

    If it's not that, I honestly have no clue. Everything else major he did was fully justified in story, even if not always right.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan D. White View Post
    Suffice it to say, I don't think killing Xavier was Cyclops going wrong, I think it was the extreme outcome of him going wrong.
    See...and there's the problem again. The "extreme outcome of him going wrong" implies that it's his fault that the Avengers decided to attack Utopia to kidnap his granddaughter, and the X-men were wrong to resist, or that it was Scott' fault that Tony Stark shot the Phoenix and it ended on him, or that Cyclops was wrong in thinking that Hope could use the Phoenix to repower mutantkind, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    He already had his redemption in Uncanny X-Men # 600 anyway. And if it is not absolutely obvious what Scott did SO bad is probably not so bad. If I had to bet, I would say that Jordan is referring to something with Vulcan and Xavier.
    Exactly- even if you think he NEEDS some redemption, what about the end of UXM#600?

    And what about Deadly Genesis? He kicked Xavier out in the end of the story, but that was just an impulse that didn't mean much- in Brubaker's follow up in Uncanny, we see Xavier was still at the mansion, although Scott is still pissed at him understandably.
    Last edited by Omega Alpha; 06-24-2019 at 09:55 AM.

  12. #6012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    If it's not that, I honestly have no clue. Everything else major he did was fully justified in story, even if not always right.
    X-Force, duh.

    The Purifiers could have been handled without resorting to team Stabby-Force and also putting/allowing traumatized minors on the team.

  13. #6013
    Mighty Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myownlittleusername View Post
    X-Force, duh.

    The Purifiers could have been handled without resorting to team Stabby-Force and also putting/allowing traumatized minors on the team.
    Then Wolverine and Storm also need redemption stories because they continued with X-Force without him.


    PD: And Jean allowed in X-Men Red that Gabby was on her team stabbing people in the skull, which is much younger than any of the X-Force.
    Last edited by Glio; 06-24-2019 at 10:02 AM.

  14. #6014
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    Quote Originally Posted by myownlittleusername View Post
    X-Force, duh.

    The Purifiers could have been handled without resorting to team Stabby-Force and also putting/allowing traumatized minors on the team.
    No, they couldn't. Second Coming pretty much was X-force doing the heavy work until the end, and they also helped Cable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Then Wolverine and Storm also need redemption stories because they continued with X-Force without him.
    Oh, what a wonderful time to be alive:
    "Cyclops: I put together a X-force team to stop the Purifiers, and they did.
    X-men: YOU SUCK, SCOTT!
    Wolverine: I continued the team after Scott, leader of mutantkind, told me to disband it, and pretty much all our missions came back to bite us in the ass.
    X-men: WE LOVE YOU, LOGAN".

    Also, Wolverine tried to murder a 16 year old innocent girl in AvX, will there be a "redemption arc" for him?

  15. #6015
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Then Wolverine and Storm also need redemption stories because they continued with X-Force without him.
    I think that at least in Wolverine's case the situation is different than Scott. Wolverine has killed people that's what he does but Cyclops doesn't kill people. Wolverine will keep killing people, he doesn't need that kind of redemption, Scott does because he had something to lose in doing so, Wolverine didn't.
    Ranking of favorite characters
    Phoenix/Jean, Cyclops, Wolverine, Storm

    My ships: Jean/Scott, Wanda/Vision, Scott/Logan, Rogue/Gambit, Storm/Black Panther.
    I have very biased opinions and i like to voice for the things i like but I'm not trying to deppreciate other things. The line is thin and blur sometimes.

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