View Poll Results: Do you love him?

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  • Hell yes!

    191 78.60%
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  1. #6031
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    .

    As for Hope, probably not, i personally don't care because i want Logan as far from the Grey-Summers tree as possible, but is understandable why people are upset about it.
    It's another thing that makes the situation about blaming Scott for AvX and Xavier's death absurd- only Scott ever called Logan on it, and has been swept under the rug, even though it's much worse, and easily among the worst things any X-man ever did in full control of their abilities.

    Heck, they look ready now to sweep Bishop's crimes under the rug and put him in a X-men team, but we still have people complaining about Scott.

  2. #6032

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    I don't see how's that absurdly immoral, specially considering most of them didn't go to the frontlines, but Xavier sending 5 teenagers alone against Magneto is OK.
    The O5 wasn't a death squad and none of them ending up killing anyone like X-23 and Rahne.

    Comparing with the 60s comics also does not work well, totally different periods with different tone. Maybe better to compare it with the Deadly Genesis second team, even though they were also not a death squad. Xavier did suffer some consequences there.

  3. #6033
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Cyclops made the largest peaceful mutant rally in history, then founded Nation X, then used the Phoenix to try to save Earth and killing Doom and then he died drowned in his own blood trying to save innocent mutants who were gassed by the Inhumans.
    What are you trying to tell me?, that Scott doesn't need a redemption?, i agreed with that he doesn't and his treatment since Schism has been lest than stellar, i just was clarifying some things about Logan.

    Scott was fine as a person, but Marvel's narrative failed and they would never accept that, is that simple.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
    Nobody does it better by Jeff Loveness

    "I am Thou, Thou Art I"
    Persona

  4. #6034
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myownlittleusername View Post
    The O5 wasn't a death squad and none of them ending up killing anyone like X-23 and Rahne.

    Comparing with the 60s comics also does not work well, totally different periods with different tone. Maybe better to compare it with the Deadly Genesis second team, even though they were also not a death squad.
    Literally the first thing Xavier ordered Scott to do was to kill Jack Winters, his adoptive father, in self-defense.

    In hindsight it is almost poetic.

  5. #6035
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    Quote Originally Posted by myownlittleusername View Post
    The O5 wasn't a death squad and none of them ending up killing anyone like X-23 and Rahne.

    Comparing with the 60s comics also does not work well, totally different periods with different tone. Maybe better to compare it with the Deathly Genesis team, even though they were also not a death squad.
    I don't about you, but if my choices at 15-16 were:
    a- Lead or work with 4 of my friends of the same age in fighting Magneto and mutant-killing robots;
    b- Work under more experienced soldiers in fighting murdering zealots, and in most cases except X-23 (Rahne was 19-20) not even go to the field;

    I know what I would prefer.

    Also, Wolverine was complicit in using X-23 and the others in X-force, he could simply have gone to the X-men about it, but he didn't.

  6. #6036

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    I don't about you, but if my choices at 15-16 were:
    a- Lead or work with 4 of my friends of the same age in fighting Magneto and mutant-killing robots;
    b- Work under more experienced soldiers in fighting murdering zealots, and in most cases except X-23 (Rahne was 19-20) not even go to the field;

    I know what I would prefer.

    Also, Wolverine was complicit in using X-23 and the others in X-force, he could simply have gone to the X-men about it, but he didn't.
    a. Some good old fashioned Silver Age fun supervised by the CCA.
    b. R-rated slash and gore comic.

    I think that's a better comparison! At least for what the readers take away from it.

    Yeah, Wolverine does not get a pass in my book. But we're talking about Cyclops now, or at least JDW was.

  7. #6037
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Heck, they look ready now to sweep Bishop's crimes under the rug and put him in a X-men team, but we still have people complaining about Scott.
    On this we agree. It's so cringe to see the same people who give Cyclops crap for everything defending and making excuses for Bishop.
    They aren't anywhere close on the near scale with Bishop being way worse but yet here we are. It feels stupid and pathetic.

  8. #6038
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    Quote Originally Posted by myownlittleusername View Post
    a. Some good old fashioned Silver Age fun supervised by the CCA.
    b. R-rated slash and gore comic.
    You're talking about readers perspective, not the characters'.

    Quote Originally Posted by fsger View Post
    On this we agree. It's so cringe to see the same people who give Cyclops crap for everything defending and making excuses for Bishop.
    They aren't anywhere close on the near scale with Bishop being way worse but yet here we are. It feels stupid and pathetic.
    Hell, the same office trying to push this Cyclops needs redemption narrative was (is? will be after the event?) pushing a romance of Bishop with Jean, never mind the fact he spent decades trying to murder her family.

  9. #6039
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    At the end of the day, the narrative of "wrong" and "right" depends more on the writer and the editor than on reality. If Jordan White wanted that Storm declaring war on the Inhumans to be an unforgivable crime and that she needed a story of redemption, we would have to swallow that.

  10. #6040
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    At the end of the day, the narrative of "wrong" and "right" depends more on the writer and the editor than on reality. If Jordan White wanted that Storm declaring war on the Inhumans to be an unforgivable crime and that she needed a story of redemption, we would have to swallow that.
    But that's the problem: people will not buy automatically what Marvel wants them to. The Inhumans push was a good example- eventually, they gave up. But they will not give up on the Cyclops was evil/wrong non-sense, no matter how much fans insist otherwise. In fact, they doubled down on that, in.the beginning of the Terrigen stuff.

  11. #6041
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    But that's the problem: people will not buy automatically what Marvel wants them to. The Inhumans push was a good example- eventually, they gave up. But they will not give up on the Cyclops was evil/wrong non-sense, no matter how much fans insist otherwise. In fact, they doubled down on that, in.the beginning of the Terrigen stuff.
    One day we need a "Making of" with an interview with Lemire of how they went from "Scott is the mutant Hitler" to "Emma Frost destroyed a toxic cloud". It is today the biggest nonsense of the decade in the X-Men and that's big words.

  12. #6042
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan D. White View Post
    I actually have a very specific reason I think Cyclops needed redemption, and it was something from before before Schism. It's a reason I believe in with my whole heart and feel very strongly about, but which I cannot divulge because of upcoming stories. Hazards of working in the industry--protecting future stories is more important than clarifying your position on old ones.

    Suffice it to say, I don't think killing Xavier was Cyclops going wrong, I think it was the extreme outcome of him going wrong.
    Sounds to me like what's being discussed is something new that hasn't been portrayed before, or at least portrayed in the way you're suggesting. I can't see why there be a need to protect future story lines if this is just an opinion about a 5, 10 or 15 year old story.

    If that's the case, and I admit that I'm speculating, that seems to suggest that something more, something worse about Cyke's history is yet to be revealed that he will then require redemption for. You can probably imagine how that sort of approach will go over. Again, if that's the case, it's easy to see how Cyke fans could justifiably be at wits end over this seemingly endless vilification of him. In my opinion, Scott's at his best when he's his own hardest judge, not the rest of the team. The cynical among us may suspect that this is in fact being done to justify (or further justify depending on your opinion) the narrative that Marvel creators have spun about him for the better part of a decade.

    I sincerely hope this isn't the case and that your concern is about showing your hand on what exactly in Cyke's history this redemption will focus on.

    On the plus side, at least we know he's getting some attention in upcoming stories. That's something anyway.

  13. #6043
    Mighty Member RachelGrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    One day we need a "Making of" with an interview with Lemire of how they went from "Scott is the mutant Hitler" to "Emma Frost destroyed a toxic cloud". It is today the biggest nonsense of the decade in the X-Men and that's big words.
    The one thing I love the most about IvX is that it killed the Inhumans at Marvel. No matter how hard Marvel tried to make it look like both sides had a point, in the end the Inhumans were guilty of a mass genocide of the mutant race and they tried to ignore it for as long as possible. I remember in Realm of Kings I thought Black Bolt and Medusa took arrogance to a whole new level, Medusa was using the Kree and not telling them the truth. The only Inhuman that even came across as remotely sympathetic in Realm of Kings was Crystal, and surprisingly enough frigging Ronan the Accuser looked better in Realm of Kings than Medusa and Black Bolt did.

    I think the failure of the writers is they wanted to turn Cyclops, Emma, and Magneto into the Mutant Brotherhood. The problem was they still couldn't escape the character history and portrayal. Scott and Emma still wanted to save mutant children at every turn, and the threats that were thrown at their team were the most vile examples of humanity which just makes it seem like their team was necessary for the survival of mutant kind. They ended the whole Canada story by having Scott and Emma and the Canadian team return to the X-Mansion, and then Scott lead the peaceful protest in Washington DC for mutant rights. If they wanted Scott and Emma to be villains, they sure ended the Canada run poorly because they both came out looking like heroes for mutant kind.

    Then they did Secret Wars, and after the reset is when the editors decided to kill Scott off. The worst part is they just had him die tragically saving lives. They had Emma have to watch the man she loves die to the Terrigen mists and watch as those same mists killed a bunch of kids right in front of her. If we want to portray Emma properly here, Emma already went through this exact same tragedy once before, she was teaching a classroom of children in Genosha when the Sentinels launched a nuclear attack. She had to watch while all the kids in the school she was teaching at died around her, and even though she tried to shield some of the kids with her own body, they still died, not even one of the kids in her school survived. I don't know about you, but I can see why Emma would go a bit crazy after seeing Scott and a school of kids getting killed by the Inhuman mist, I can completely understand why she wanted to get rid of those clouds by any means necessary. Because for the last 30 years of Emma's history in comics she keeps being forced to watch while humans and other threats keep killing mutant children and she has no way to stop it.

    The problem Marvel has in making any of the mutants into villains is it depends on what they are fighting for. Magneto has been one of the characters who goes back and forth between being a villain or an anti-hero. Magneto is a freedom fighter for mutants and when you read how the humans of the Marvel Earth keep perpetuating endless genocide on mutants, it's no wonder that Magneto actually starts to look like a rather sympathetic and heroic character because he is just trying to save his people against insurmountable human evil.

    Scott doesn't go anywhere near Magneto's level of militancy, and his strong desire to protect and defend mutants always makes him look and feel like a hero. This is one of the reasons I hate cross overs with the Avengers, because no matter how you cut it, the Avengers will always come across as being complicit in the genocide of the mutant race. Each of the franchises live in a bit of a bubble from each other, but when those two bubbles intersect you start asking "why do the Avengers let the mutant race be hunted down to the point of extinction?", "Why don't they stand with the mutants and help protect them from groups like government, Weapon X, Project Wideawake, the Hound Program, the Purifiers, and the endless other groups of people that are constantly trying to kill mutants?"

    That's why crossovers never work well, because the Avengers ended up looking bad in the face of that, and Inhumans ended up looking bad too. Both the Avengers and Inhumans came across as complicit with mutant genocide even though the writers probably didn't even think that through when they came up with the stories.

  14. #6044
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfhammer View Post
    Sounds to me like what's being discussed is something new that hasn't been portrayed before, or at least portrayed in the way you're suggesting. I can't see why there be a need to protect future story lines if this is just an opinion about a 5, 10 or 15 year old story.

    If that's the case, and I admit that I'm speculating, that seems to suggest that something more, something worse about Cyke's history is yet to be revealed that he will then require redemption for. You can probably imagine how that sort of approach will go over. Again, if that's the case, it's easy to see how Cyke fans could justifiably be at wits end over this seemingly endless vilification of him. In my opinion, Scott's at his best when he's his own hardest judge, not the rest of the team. The cynical among us may suspect that this is in fact being done to justify (or further justify depending on your opinion) the narrative that Marvel creators have spun about him for the better part of a decade.

    I sincerely hope this isn't the case and that your concern is about showing your hand on what exactly in Cyke's history this redemption will focus on.

    On the plus side, at least we know he's getting some attention in upcoming stories. That's something anyway.
    Creating first the need for redemption and then a retcon of why it is necessary seems incredibly clumsy so I see it possible to happen.

    I remember that Jordan White believed that Beast leaving Utopia was reasonable so if it is not a retcon then his "horrible action" must be prior to Utopia, like X-Force or Deadly Genesis.

  15. #6045
    Mighty Member RachelGrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Creating first the need for redemption and then a retcon of why it is necessary seems incredibly clumsy so I see it possible to happen.

    I remember that Jordan White believed that Beast leaving Utopia was reasonable so if it is not a retcon then his "horrible action" must be prior to Utopia, like X-Force or Deadly Genesis.
    The funny thing is that if Scott hunted down and killed a room full of Purifiers after they attacked a bunch of mutant children, I wouldn't think less of him as a character for it. He could go and mass murder a whole bunch of racist horrible people and I would think that those people got what was coming to them. Lastly, Logan would do the same thing. Rahne got murdered, and Logan hunted down her killers with Kwannon and tried to murder them all. I am not sure if he succeeded because they went off panel after the O.N.E. raided the house, but Logan always does that. Holding Scott up to a different standard while giving other characters like Logan, Cable, and Bishop a free pass is hypocrisy.

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