View Poll Results: Do you love him?

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  1. #6121
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    Scott's still a broken man. He's turned a corner since his resurrection and merger with Tyke, but he's still a man smashed to pieces by years of loss. He's no longer in denial and started taking responsibility for his actions--a process that began at the end of Bendis's run but got preempted by Secret Wars and then IvX--and he's trying to do the right thing. He's still not healed nor whole, though. In other words, Scott isn't RightClops anymore, but he's still not BoyScott, either. He's...TykeClops.

    As for JDW, he and whichever writer(s) he's working with have a story they want to tell that JDW feels very strongly about. We can't properly judge it, or what exactly JDW feels Scott still needs redemption for, until we see it explicitly spelled out.

    That's not yet clear. Again, I have a hunch JDW was referring to the end of Rosenberg's run as, based on what we've seen so far, Hickman isn't going to be continuing current story threads.

    What I meant by "threading the needle" wasn't using Scott's years of loss and reunion with Jean as a means of "redemption".* Rather, I meant that as an alternative to "redemption". A way of reconciling Scott's Extinction-era behavior with the more traditional hero Marvel seems to want to turn him back into, but in a way that's broadly credible to the fanbase. Scott didn't so much go bad during those years as go slowly nuts due to worsening PTSD.

    *You seem to be using "redemption" to refer to Scott's standing with the rest of the X-Men. I've been using "redemption" in a broader, meta sense, referring to Marvel's desire to re-characterize Scott as a more traditional hero.

    Anyway, Scott doesn't need "redemption". He needs love, understanding, and a whole shitload of therapy.
    Totally agree with the bolded. I think you make a strong case that Scott's not in a good place psychologically right now and that's self evident. I don't think that statement correctly describes what started this whole ball of wax which is that Scott needs further redemption for past actions, at least those that have been revealed.

  2. #6122
    Astonishing Member Ulfhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan D. White View Post
    Can we get the thread title changed to "JDW Speculation Thread"?
    Or you could see this as a sign of an engaged and invested fan base, at least here at CBR. Dissecting creator statements is hardly unique to comic book fandom.

  3. #6123
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan D. White View Post
    Can we get the thread title changed to "JDW Speculation Thread"?
    Just keep in mind, until Cyclops gets to be both heroic AND competent again I won't be purchasing anything made by Marvel. I haven't since the words "mutant Hitler" slipped off someone's pen and I'm not sure there is any reason to do so coming anytime soon.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  4. #6124
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    There is a very specific type of anxiety that is when you think you have done something wrong but you do not know what.

    This is the Cyclops fandom for months. It is exhausting to be pointed all the time to something that we do not know what it is.

  5. #6125
    Astonishing Member AHRNIHAL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    There is a very specific type of anxiety that is when you think you have done something wrong but you do not know what.

    This is the Cyclops fandom for months. It is exhausting to be pointed all the time to something that we do not know what it is.
    Months????
    "...For you to die you would have to be forgotten and no one forgets a founder of a nation..."

  6. #6126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan D. White View Post
    Can we get the thread title changed to "JDW Speculation Thread"?
    To be fair, you were the one that dropped a big hint.

    Anyway, most fans are unhappy with what Marvel is trying to do with Cyclops for years, and that can't come as surprising news to anyone there; now you come here and say rather than give up and move on, which has been done before, many many times (for example, Emma with the stupid Magneto like helmet in IvX, which you laughed off recently and most people here praised you for that, myself included), but this one specific point "Cyclops was wrong" someone there just CAN'T...LET...GO.

    I mean, you see even some people here that dislike Cyclops, but still thought he was right in AvX and Schism, or at the very least, more right than the Avengers and Wolverine, see people that prefer classic Scott and want nothing more than him getting together with Jean and on a team with the 05 wanting Marvel to just move on and what we saw in Bendis' run was more than enough; rather, we must endure Havok whining that Cyclops brought the X-men to ruin when he left mutants with their own nation and organizing a successful peace march, and only got the Phoenix because Tony Stark shot it with a gun.

    Honestly, Cyclops is my favorite character as long as I can remember (that is long before Morrison, mind you), but if all we're gonna get is what we're seeing in Rosenberg's run, of him being portrayed as wrong and evil in the past and now just as plain incompetent, I honestly rather you'd just kept him dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    There is a very specific type of anxiety that is when you think you have done something wrong but you do not know what.

    This is the Cyclops fandom for months. It is exhausting to be pointed all the time to something that we do not know what it is.
    Exactly, and JDW's comment now just fueled this even more.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Just keep in mind, until Cyclops gets to be both heroic AND competent again I won't be purchasing anything made by Marvel. I haven't since the words "mutant Hitler" slipped off someone's pen and I'm not sure there is any reason to do so coming anytime soon.
    Read Champions #5, great portrayal of Cyclops, not Rightclops, but not whiny or incompetent, but rather someone that Ms. Marvel describes as an inspirational figure. If this was what we were seeing in Uncanny, no one would complain.

    Quote Originally Posted by AHRNIHAL View Post
    Months????
    More like since AvX, or even Schism. And of course there was the whole "Cyclops is Hitler" non-sense.

  7. #6127
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    Scott's still a broken man. He's turned a corner since his resurrection and merger with Tyke, but he's still a man smashed to pieces by years of loss. He's no longer in denial and started taking responsibility for his actions--a process that began at the end of Bendis's run but got preempted by Secret Wars and then IvX--and he's trying to do the right thing. He's still not healed nor whole, though. In other words, Scott isn't RightClops anymore, but he's still not BoyScott, either. He's...TykeClops.

    As for JDW, he and whichever writer(s) he's working with have a story they want to tell that JDW feels very strongly about. We can't properly judge it, or what exactly JDW feels Scott still needs redemption for, until we see it explicitly spelled out.



    When I was talking about RightClops fans, I wasn't referring to you. That portion of my comments was my analysis of where the disconnect between RightClops fans and Marvel editorial came from.



    That's not yet clear. Again, I have a hunch JDW was referring to the end of Rosenberg's run as, based on what we've seen so far, Hickman isn't going to be continuing current story threads.



    What I meant by "threading the needle" wasn't using Scott's years of loss and reunion with Jean as a means of "redemption".* Rather, I meant that as an alternative to "redemption". A way of reconciling Scott's Extinction-era behavior with the more traditional hero Marvel seems to want to turn him back into, but in a way that's broadly credible to the fanbase. Scott didn't so much go bad during those years as go slowly nuts due to worsening PTSD.

    *You seem to be using "redemption" to refer to Scott's standing with the rest of the X-Men. I've been using "redemption" in a broader, meta sense, referring to Marvel's desire to re-characterize Scott as a more traditional hero.

    Anyway, Scott doesn't need "redemption". He needs love, understanding, and a whole shitload of therapy.
    I agree Cyke is currently broken. What I disagree with is the statement that he took responsibility at the end of BMB's run. He took it waaay before that, and he took responsibility for AvX at the end of Gillen's. BMB had Cyke backtrack and then get right back on track for reasons. It was my initial frustration about his run: it squandered the momentum from AvX and AvX:Consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Just keep in mind, until Cyclops gets to be both heroic AND competent again I won't be purchasing anything made by Marvel. I haven't since the words "mutant Hitler" slipped off someone's pen and I'm not sure there is any reason to do so coming anytime soon.
    Haven't bought either. Tried with the initial issues of Cyke's return, but when it became clear I was reading Tyke 2.0-- and it was immediately clear-- I decided against investing in trash.

    I don't know. At this point, I'm hoping Hickman pulls off another miracle. But my trust in the X-Office is getting lower by the day.
    Don't like? Don't read. Let your wallet talk.

    When will Logan call out Jean for putting his clone and his clone's underage clone in an X-Squad?

  8. #6128
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    Scott's still a broken man. He's turned a corner since his resurrection and merger with Tyke, but he's still a man smashed to pieces by years of loss. He's no longer in denial and started taking responsibility for his actions--a process that began at the end of Bendis's run but got preempted by Secret Wars and then IvX--and he's trying to do the right thing. He's still not healed nor whole, though. In other words, Scott isn't RightClops anymore, but he's still not BoyScott, either. He's...TykeClops.
    He's broken to the extent he doesn't even want to be the leader anymore (Uncanny X-men 16). You must be very strong in your mind to take decisions that can affect the lives of other people and here they are your friends… It can go awry anytime and afterwards whatever the outcome, you have to face the consequences.

    I think that the key point is his relation with Xavier: how does Cyclops become an independent man with his own beliefs… It doesn't mean becoming his counterpoint neither… He did more than 'killing the father' in a symbolic way.

    I must admit: I'm curious to see what you say to someone you killed…

  9. #6129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    I think that the key point is his relation with Xavier: how does Cyclops become an independent man with his own beliefs… It doesn't mean becoming his counterpoint neither… He did more than 'killing the father' in a symbolic way.
    Except the entire point of what was built with him during the SF/Utopia era was that he was neither Xavier nor Magneto, but something else, that meshes their philosophy- not racist like Magneto, but not staying quiet in a corner waiting for acceptance, like Xavier. The problem is that Marvel wanted to go back to the "classic" approach, meaning illusion of change, and decided to make Logan Xavier, and that would mean make Cyclops Magneto, and, in their minds, the bad guy.

  10. #6130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    To be fair, you were the one that dropped a big hint.

    Anyway, most fans are unhappy with what Marvel is trying to do with Cyclops for years, and that can't come as surprising news to anyone there; now you come here and say rather than give up and move on, which has been done before, many many times (for example, Emma with the stupid Magneto like helmet in IvX, which you laughed off recently and most people here praised you for that, myself included), but this one specific point "Cyclops was wrong" someone there just CAN'T...LET...GO.

    I mean, you see even some people here that dislike Cyclops, but still thought he was right in AvX and Schism, or at the very least, more right than the Avengers and Wolverine, see people that prefer classic Scott and want nothing more than him getting together with Jean and on a team with the 05 wanting Marvel to just move on and what we saw in Bendis' run was more than enough; rather, we must endure Havok whining that Cyclops brought the X-men to ruin when he left mutants with their own nation and organizing a successful peace march, and only got the Phoenix because Tony Stark shot it with a gun.

    Honestly, Cyclops is my favorite character as long as I can remember (that is long before Morrison, mind you), but if all we're gonna get is what we're seeing in Rosenberg's run, of him being portrayed as wrong and evil in the past and now just as plain incompetent, I honestly rather you'd just kept him dead.



    Exactly, and JDW's comment now just fueled this even more.




    Read Champions #5, great portrayal of Cyclops, not Rightclops, but not whiny or incompetent, but rather someone that Ms. Marvel describes as an inspirational figure. If this was what we were seeing in Uncanny, no one would complain.



    More like since AvX, or even Schism. And of course there was the whole "Cyclops is Hitler" non-sense.
    That's the crux of it, isn't it? It really does feel someone got butthurt over Cyke not coming off as the clear Villain in AvX, much like Cap in Civil War. Like, biiig yikes!

    And yeah, I can't heap enough praise for Champions #5. It was only one issue so it's heads or tails between ScoutClops or RightClops, but dude sure as hell wasn't Tyke 2.0.
    Don't like? Don't read. Let your wallet talk.

    When will Logan call out Jean for putting his clone and his clone's underage clone in an X-Squad?

  11. #6131
    Astonishing Member AHRNIHAL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Except the entire point of what was built with him during the SF/Utopia era was that he was neither Xavier nor Magneto, but something else, that meshes their philosophy- not racist like Magneto, but not staying quiet in a corner waiting for acceptance, like Xavier. The problem is that Marvel wanted to go back to the "classic" approach, meaning illusion of change, and decided to make Logan Xavier, and that would mean make Cyclops Magneto, and, in their minds, the bad guy.
    Exactly.Trying to go back to classics not gonna work.That's why Gold failed.You've to evolve.
    The audience have changed.What they're looking for is different than the classics.
    "...For you to die you would have to be forgotten and no one forgets a founder of a nation..."

  12. #6132

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    Here is my gift to you all--I have no plans to put out any stories regarding whether Cyclops in that era was right pretty much ever again. As far as I am concerned, the annual was the end of that storyline.

    From now on, we can all judge him by his current actions.

  13. #6133
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    This problem with redemption arcs is that they are based on a premise: Learning from their mistakes.

    For example, in Superior Spider-man in the end we see Otto being aware of how his arrogance caused the whole problem.

    If you remove that, it's like building a sentence with a subject but without a predicate. With Rosenberg Scott seems obsessed with "X-Men don't kill" but that was never his problem at all. Hell, in all his revolutionary phase he did not kill anyone.

  14. #6134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan D. White View Post
    Here is my gift to you all--I have no plans to put out any stories regarding whether Cyclops in that era was right pretty much ever again. As far as I am concerned, the annual was the end of that storyline.

    From now on, we can all judge him by his current actions.
    Is present-day Cyclops milk or cereal first? Apple or Android? Five Guys or Smashburger? You're the last word on this stuff!
    Dance games are my divine punishment from the Lord. May my furnace be forever fueled.

  15. #6135
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan D. White View Post
    Here is my gift to you all--I have no plans to put out any stories regarding whether Cyclops in that era was right pretty much ever again. As far as I am concerned, the annual was the end of that storyline.

    From now on, we can all judge him by his current actions.
    The issue is that his current actions are shaped by a need to be redeemed for his actions before. The disconnect doesn't disappear simply because the last era isn't spoken of.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

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