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  1. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrel View Post
    The whole rescindence to killing started in Liu's run (Issue 7), it was further reinforced in avengers academy (last arc)... he also had to try and reconcile with that clearly the immortal skrull Jazinda who didn't properly research her role version in All-New X-men. That flashback was off, but I think he had a good grasp of the character, he just insisted on being so insufferably optimistic and coddling, he had a light-dark-light-dark thing going on, but just wouldn't let the dark properly fall, and be properly oppressive and threatening, wouldn't let events push her back into that pit she climbed out of, and have her claw her way back up therefore providing a sense of meaning and accomplishment... pretty sure she'd still slit the throat of the joker though.
    See that's where I disagree. She became more and more human, and less using killing as a first response during those runs true, but one conversation from Wolverine that happened in a series that was real world years ago just felt forced. Had we had a flashback to even Arena, where the deaths of those around her affected her a lot more... or hell if she was even doing it because she felt she had to to fit in then OK. Taylor is a good writer, but he was just a poor fit for Laura... so I guess I agree with you mostly? I think Taylor understands Laura in theory but cannot for the life of him write her in practice. I will give him credit in having the only Civil War 2 tie in I thought was remotely readable... but even that one had the OH NO GABBY!!! crap going on.

    The thing is, darkness is inherent in Laura, it feels like they downplay that constantly to make her more appealing or something, I don't know... and don't even get me started on Warren/Laura... yes I know Bendis started that train wreck, but Taylor may have actually made it worse.

  2. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumpyshark View Post
    I would argue that it isn't a retcon at all to have Logan in his X-Force garb telling Laura that she doesn't have to kill and for her to still have killed afterwards. Generally, you don't just fundamentally shift in significant ways (and make it stick for a significant length of time) overnight, but moments like that can become significant again as they get repeated/reinforced, and become steps along the way.

    It's hardly a ridiculous take on X-23 within the fiction, regardless of how you feel about it in terms of effectiveness. Characters get reappraised and rejigged to varying degrees by different creative teams, based on interpretation and to keep things fresh.
    I'd argue it was a retcon because, well... it was a bit of a retcon. That conversation didn't happen in X-Force... similar ones might have... hell there were arguments about how she SHOULDN'T be a killer but she wanted to be because she felt that was all she was good for. I mean that was kind of the point. But to set it up as that conversation being the reason she now doesn't kill just didn't feel right. I think Taylor just wanted her to no longer be what she was and shoehorned it in to suit his purpose. He clearly wanted a lighter book, and that's what he got. The thing is he wanted to have his cake and eat it too... he'd flirt with the dark stuff, but never really let it hit.

    Her not killing could have worked if there were build up to it and stakes, but to me it just didn't. It might not be fair to him as I suppose there are precious few writers I felt actually wrote Laura very well, Kyle, Yost, Liu, Gage and maybe that's it? Taylor is probably the best of the rest, but that is damning with faint praise.

    Looking back at my favorite Laura books, I'm thinking that it might be best to retire her solos for a bit and give her another team to work with. She really works best when she has a consistent cast to play off of. And Gabby does not count.

  3. #438
    Fantastic Member Mr Abductor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bishopcruz View Post
    Interesting question. I wanted to like Taylor's run more than I actually did in practice, I really gave it the old college try... but it never quite felt like Laura to me. I got hyped for Enemy of the state 2, and that underdelivered, got hyped when Kimura came back, and that underdelivered. By the time I fell off, I realized I was reading it not because I liked the run, but because she was in in and at least it wasn't Bendis.

    The best stuff I think looking back with what works with her in the earlier runs is her kind of coming to terms with who she is. She IS a killer, she IS an assassin, but she learns that she is that and also her own person. She cares deeply about those around her and will do anything to protect them. What have we gotten since then? Arc after arc of dealing with clones, and/or team ups with other heroes. Oh, and Gabby getting threatened with the question of will Laura snap THIS time? To which the answer is always no.

    If I had to do anything, off the top of my head I'd says poop or get off the pot with the gabby thing. Instead of another arc of "WILL GABBY DIE?" just go for it. She adds nothing to Laura as a character so just kill her and give us Laura going John Wick for a run, it's something we haven't really seen. X-force came close, but seeing possibly the best assassin in the Marvel Universe going ham without the trigger scent? She's super intelligent, multi lingual, perfect for a la femme nikita style story. That would be something to see.

    After that, put her on New Mutants or something, she works great on teams so long as the writer can actually write her as stoic with the bursts of emotion from time to time.
    Would you be fine with that only happening once (JW), as Laura is now written to be better than the people that created her, rejecting that killer instinct is something she'd likely do after a while. Taylor's run further cemented that view for her.

    If not, how'd you get her to keep it going while progressing her character, unless you don't care for her to and like her to sit in this more morally grey area and stagnate for a while.

  4. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Abductor View Post
    Would you be fine with that only happening once (JW), as Laura is now written to be better than the people that created her, rejecting that killer instinct is something she'd likely do after a while. Taylor's run further cemented that view for her.

    If not, how'd you get her to keep it going while progressing her character, unless you don't care for her to and like her to sit in this more morally grey area and stagnate for a while.
    Like I said, that idea was off the top of my head. But yeah, a run like that could only be done once to have an impression. But afterwards we would at least have a status quo and Laura would have BITE again. My issue is that long before she was thrown into happy fun land Laura was ALREADY better than the people who made her. But she wasn't a standard teen hero either, which is what recent arcs seemed dead set on making her. It's not about staying still, it IS about a steady run forward with the character as they have existed and understanding that point.

    And that's why try as I might I could not get on board with Taylor's interpretation. It moved away from the dark without giving us something as dramatically satisfying in its place. It moved from a dark character with bursts of light to a light character with dark teases that go nowhere. With say Logan, he can play at being a normal hero, at being the headmaster of a school, at but there is never any doubt that when the shit hits the fan he will kill every person in the room if he has to. That threat is always there. I never felt that in Taylor's run with Laura. Or for a more recent example in Tamaki's first arc, I never bought the idea that she would actually kill any of the cuckoos if things went south. I should have. Look back at the NXM run or Target X, or Liu or whatever... that threat of violence, REAL violence was always under the surface with her character. A JW arc like I suggested... it might at least put her back in an interesting place.

  5. #440
    Fantastic Member Mr Abductor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bishopcruz View Post
    Like I said, that idea was off the top of my head. But yeah, a run like that could only be done once to have an impression. But afterwards we would at least have a status quo and Laura would have BITE again. My issue is that long before she was thrown into happy fun land Laura was ALREADY better than the people who made her. But she wasn't a standard teen hero either, which is what recent arcs seemed dead set on making her. It's not about staying still, it IS about a steady run forward with the character as they have existed and understanding that point.

    And that's why try as I might I could not get on board with Taylor's interpretation. It moved away from the dark without giving us something as dramatically satisfying in its place. It moved from a dark character with bursts of light to a light character with dark teases that go nowhere. With say Logan, he can play at being a normal hero, at being the headmaster of a school, at but there is never any doubt that when the shit hits the fan he will kill every person in the room if he has to. That threat is always there. I never felt that in Taylor's run with Laura. Or for a more recent example in Tamaki's first arc, I never bought the idea that she would actually kill any of the cuckoos if things went south. I should have. Look back at the NXM run or Target X, or Liu or whatever... that threat of violence, REAL violence was always under the surface with her character. A JW arc like I suggested... it might at least put her back in an interesting place.
    I'm with you on this stuff, her character has been shifted to the other side of the moral spectrum and having that underlying threat reside within her could make for some interesting stuff.

    If you were meant to go with that killing off Gabby idea, it happening due to her not going lethal which results in her death, causes her great regret so she tends to have less doubts about putting people down, can be plausible. Just like when she thought that Daken killed her Sarah and she flipped the switch.

    While we've settle a compromise for her going back to killing more often, I still don't like the way she talks currently, I'm strangely attracted to her more emotionless stilted dialogue she had back in Liu's run, it was more unique than what she has now. With everyone saying she's more of a typical teen hero, I agree, i hate those type of heroes, there a dime a dozen at Marvel, with more and more older classic heroines following suit unfortunately like Simone's Domino cast.
    Except for some extremely traumatic situation i can't think of a way to get her back to that lol

  6. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Abductor View Post
    I'm with you on this stuff, her character has been shifted to the other side of the moral spectrum and having that underlying threat reside within her could make for some interesting stuff.

    If you were meant to go with that killing off Gabby idea, it happening due to her not going lethal which results in her death, causes her great regret so she tends to have less doubts about putting people down, can be plausible. Just like when she thought that Daken killed her Sarah and she flipped the switch.

    While we've settle a compromise for her going back to killing more often, I still don't like the way she talks currently, I'm strangely attracted to her more emotionless stilted dialogue she had back in Liu's run, it was more unique than what she has now. With everyone saying she's more of a typical teen hero, I agree, i hate those type of heroes, there a dime a dozen at Marvel, with more and more older classic heroines following suit unfortunately like Simone's Domino cast.
    Except for some extremely traumatic situation i can't think of a way to get her back to that lol
    Well losing Gabby would be both traumatic and something I would do a backflip for. But I don't think you even need to go down that route necessarily. Another option would be her killing someone to save a friend from making that choice, to stop them from going down her road. Not horribly original, but it fits her character. She has always valued others far, far more than herself, often to unhealthy extremes, and this showed even in the Taylor run. But for that to work she needs FRIENDS. And current marvel seems dead set against her having them. She has guest stars, and her boyfriend was her taxi, and he's apparently gone now (he IS right, I think I heard the teen X-men are finally back to where they came from?).

  7. #442
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Teen Angel is indeed gone, but Archangel has his memories.

  8. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Teen Angel is indeed gone, but Archangel has his memories.
    Which I hope never, EVER comes up.

    The fact that most writers have quietly simply forgotten they were dating to the point they couldn't even be bothered to show them break up on panel gives me hope it will never be acknowledged again.
    Still hoping for that Helix Reunion...

    The New X-Men: Can't let you grow up because you make everyone look old. But we can sure as @#$% mindlessly kill you off for shock value!


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  9. #444

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambaryerno View Post
    Which I hope never, EVER comes up.

    The fact that most writers have quietly simply forgotten they were dating to the point they couldn't even be bothered to show them break up on panel gives me hope it will never be acknowledged again.
    I wouldn't mind if it never came up again. But at the same time, I also wouldn't mind if Laura and Angel just had a quick exchange acknowledging what happened and then putting it to rest. It could be a single panel, even. Either way works because that relationship was doomed from the start and never had much dramatic weight.
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  10. #445
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambaryerno View Post
    Which I hope never, EVER comes up.

    The fact that most writers have quietly simply forgotten they were dating to the point they couldn't even be bothered to show them break up on panel gives me hope it will never be acknowledged again.
    They were okay together, hell that's how you have your Avatar, but it always felt like it was "pairing the spares" by editorial when the creative team wanted Laura x Tyke.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  11. #446
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    To end this who should be with her arguments just give her a harem, that way everyone wins.

  12. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    They were okay together, hell that's how you have your Avatar, but it always felt like it was "pairing the spares" by editorial when the creative team wanted Laura x Tyke.
    Wasn't a huge fan of it myself, but the big thing for me is that it was just never a very interesting relationship, IMHO. Maybe stuff I haven't read yet does more with them, but it always felt like it was just there, with little development to it or showing different facets of the characters. (Granted, I do think that X-23's non-romantic relationships have been the better ones, but even putting her with Hellion -- something I was never really a fan of -- did make for some interesting story fodder in how they kinda got together and fell apart, miles away from how she and teen Angel just phased out with no explanation.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dthirds3 View Post
    To end this who should be with her arguments just give her a harem, that way everyone wins.
    Oh, please no.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  13. #448
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    To be fair, every xmen will be romantically involved with each other at some point so why not cut out the middle man

  14. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dthirds3 View Post
    To be fair, every xmen will be romantically involved with each other at some point so why not cut out the middle man
    Because the middle man makes it all palatable?
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  15. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    They were okay together, hell that's how you have your Avatar, but it always felt like it was "pairing the spares" by editorial when the creative team wanted Laura x Tyke.
    Laura and Tyke was still such a wasted opportunity. It was one of those I never thought of before they hinted at it, then I laughed for a good few minutes when it was brought up for just how damn perfect it was.

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