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  1. #3841
    Mighty Member RedBird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmax99 View Post
    no jason is a victim, harley was a grown woman who knowingly ran into the arms of a serial killer who was her patient. i don't know why people try to compare Barbra and jason to harley a woman who threw her whole life way to be with a killer
    I agree, and for the sake of clarity I would like to make my standpoint clear on this and expand on why I placed 'victims' in quotation marks earlier.

    Compared to Harley Quinn, Babs and Jason were much more like innocent bystanders when they crossed deadly paths with the Joker, even in the situations of how their trauma took place, Babs being in the safety of her own home and Jason trying to find and reassure his mother. Harley's story is that she was more or less seduced by the Joker and manipulated further once she was blinded by her love, but yes, she very much knew him to be a murderous crazed criminal and still chose to side with him, all whilst adopting a new criminal persona for herself as well.

    Whilst I completely agree with you on this topic of Harley not being nearly in the same category as Babs and Jason, this idea of Harley as being 'just a victim', is in all fairness, whether we like it or not, kind of how she is seen now a days and it's perpetuated by DC. It's why she is placed in stories like 'Heroes in Crisis', and within that book when she is crossing paths with Babs, she isn't treated with any sort of wariness or distance, instead she gets a hug.


    I apologize ahead for this tangent but...
    Harley's antics in her main books, seem to be carefully ensured that no matter how violent or reprehensible they are, they are presented so cartoonishly loony and therefore too unimpactful, to show her as anything other than a 'fun loving clown gal'. And that's totally fine by itself, but then the abuse narrative shows up and becomes the only thing that's presented as carrying any sort of weight and therefore ensures that she is only seen as a victim of Joker, whilst her own crimes with or without him are swept under the rug by the guise of being just a 'ca-razy girl power' anthem.

    I love her growth as an independent character, but I think often times the idea of her as the face of abuse victims has created such a black and white view over her origin, one that leaves little room for any nuance to her as a character and not a symbol, lest she be seen as unsympathetic. She was an intelligent woman who found her escapism fantasy in a love for a murderous monster, and who was completely fine with hurting and killing others with reckless abandon alongside her lover, but then as soon as, said lover, hurts her instead, she becomes 'just a victim', and often that ends up overshadowing her character, despite the obvious context by which it all occurs.


    Side note: I been loving 'Harleen' by Stjepan Sejic though, the tone is much more thoughtful there and considering it's structured from the more automatically sympathetic position of being in Harleys mind and her POV, it still feels much more self aware and critical. I'm curious to see how that story finalizes her origin.

  2. #3842
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denirac View Post
    As much as I love Jason, in that case the Victim card only goes so far when you become a Mass Murderer too.
    but jason is a victim of joker's just like barbra, harley is not she chose him knowing he was a serial killer, he was in arkham when she met him. i can admit jason is a serial killer, but what does being a killer have to do with harley not being one of joker victims. tell me why a woman who fell in love with a mass murder while he was in an mental institute for the criminally insane a victim of his because he beat her he kills women and children just for fun and she knew that. i don't put her in the same category as jason or barbra because at least they were innocent bystanders or people when joker attack them. harley wanted to be by joker side no matter the abuse or the cost. look im not saying harley not a victim she is she just not one of joker victims
    Last edited by redmax99; 12-01-2019 at 08:00 AM.

  3. #3843
    Mighty Member RedBird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denirac View Post
    As much as I love Jason, in that case the Victim card only goes so far when you become a Mass Murderer too.
    A victim card is part of the fabrication of victimhood, which I don't think applies to Jason.

    Jason was a victim as a child, he was innocent when he was made to be a victim, and now is still suffering the consequences of said trauma through his adulthood. No one is saying that Joker made him a mass murderer, in the end that was entirely his choice. If we are regarding how his current actions would make him unsympathetic and render his victimhood null, well context matters, and in comparison to Joker who is usually presented as the pinnacle for despicable and criminal human behavior, it's safe to say that Jason doesn't carry the same values as the Joker, he doesn't kill in order to create needless chaos and harm like the Joker. His victim hood was not a fabrication nor have his actions ever been equally comparative to his perpetrator, Joker, despite the lethal measures he takes.

    By contrast, Harley became a mass murderer alongside Joker, she was fine with killing under the Jokers values of needless chaos and harm, before she came across the consequences of said actions, her victimization came only after her long criminal actions, which were much more comparative and in line with her perpetrators.


    There is a difference.

  4. #3844
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denirac View Post
    I'd almost argue that Jason and Harley have more in common than a lot of DCU Characters, They're both Psychologically Damaged Victims of Joker's Insanity but in different ways- at their core, both have been Broken by Joker. Harley's Insane and Jason isnt exactly what one describes as Stable, It feels more natural than Jason and Talia at least
    I have a lot in common with people that I'm pretty sure I don't want to have even a one night stand, let alone an actual love affair. I also have some issues that I'm pretty sure are something I wouldn't want to have to deal with with others, because it could be a neverending feedback of arguing, anxiety and angryness: If I'm going to find someone to share my life with, I will find someone who can deal with them and has his own that I can deal with.

    Being unstable doesn't mean that he would feel attached to someone who is al well. And Jason isn't crazy, just to point out. He has issues, like everyone. You could argue that Bruce is as unstable as Jason, or even more. What Jason is, is emotional, and he's driven by them. But not all the time, just when he's overflown by them. Like a lot of people. Just, a lot of people aren't vigilantes with training and resouces and a big PTSD.
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  5. #3845
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    They are all victims. Harley being a grownup or falling for the Joker doesn't make her any less a victim. That's a shitty thing to say.

    I could say that Jason disobeyed orders and ran of not like Damian to save the world from his mum but because basically he wanted his mummy. He failed to listen to Bruce and ended up getting him killed. Does that make him any less of a victim because he actively chased his own death? Nope. They are all victims. Being a grown up doesn't change that.

    I don't think that Jason and Harley should have a one night stand. Do they even have a relationship?

    I know they have a connection via Joker but that's stretching it especially since Joker isn't Jason's arch.

    Harley and bruce having that one date made sense she is his arch.

    Harley attempting to rape Nightwing is a stretch but he's the DcU sex God that every woman wants. that's established so one can come by that angle but aside from that it makes little sense.
    Last edited by Fergus; 12-01-2019 at 08:48 AM.

  6. #3846
    Mighty Member RedBird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    They are all victims. Harley being a grownup or falling for the Joker doesn't make her any less a victim. That's a shitty thing to say.
    I'm going to assume this isn't directed towards me since I clearly didn't say Harley wasn't a victim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    I could say that Jason disobeyed orders and ran of not like Damian to save the world from his mum but because basically he wanted his mummy. He failed to listen to Bruce and ended up getting him killed. Does that make him any less of a victim because he actively chased his own death? Nope. They are all victims. Being a grown up doesn't change that.
    This statement is just confusing. Also I don't know what Damian has to do with this?

    Yeah, you could say Jason disobeyed an order because he 'wanted his mummy'. But that wasn't what got him killed? And he certainly didn't 'chase his own death'? I don't know how that pertains. Jason didn't 'get himself killed' he was contacting his mom when Joker crossed his path or more so trapped him and killed him. There was no way for him to know that simply speaking with his mother would lead to death via Joker.

  7. #3847
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denirac View Post
    As much as I love Jason, in that case the Victim card only goes so far when you become a Mass Murderer too.
    He's not a mass murderer. A murderer, yeah, he's that. But victims who are manipulated into murder and become murderers are still victims, and they don't stop being so because they murder. Are the child soldiers that get to live into their later teens less victims because they are teens instead of kids or they have been indoctrinated into kill, taking advantage of the teens resent against whatever other faction? Because, that's in short what's happened to Jason, whom people tend to forget was a teen when he was traumatically killed, came back and became Red Hood.

    He's still a killer, he chose (still chooses sometimes) to kill. But sometimes choices aren't clear for us, or we find outselves without a good choice at all, either because our circumstances, or the baggage we carry with us. Even for mature adults; we're responsible of our acts unless we're insane, but there are mitigating circumstances too, even for us. A beaten wife who has killed his husband to put an end to him beating her is still a victim, as much as a murderer.

    The more I grow old and get to know people, the more grays I find. I was pretty black and white when I was in middle school, funny enough. I'm still pretty radical about certain things, but, funny enough, I wasn't about them then. Life's funny.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 12-01-2019 at 09:25 AM.
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  8. #3848
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Just to be clear; I understand a mass murderer as someone who kills people systematically in a short period of time, and in big numbers. It's not just about the numbers. Back in the day, did the mafiosi and their thugs get called mass murderers? If they were, then, I guess I'm wrong. But I think, probably because my background as a historian, that the category is more fitting for people who exterminates a group of certain characteristics, in very high numbers, consistently. Certain take on Joker would be one just barely because the sheer amount of numbers, and because he chooses usually victims of a certain place as a collective. But not always.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 12-01-2019 at 11:20 AM.
    This is a signature. It has letters on it, and those letters form words. Words like these. I will not quote anything because I'm uninspired but, I read a lot: I could!

    And this is my Tumblr. Sometimes I post stuff there.

  9. #3849
    Mighty Member RedBird's Avatar
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    @Denirac I'll give you credit, you weren't kidding when you said it was 'a controversial opinion', XD there's quite some push back here.

  10. #3850
    Mighty Member RedBird's Avatar
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    _zynix10
    SaltBae


  11. #3851
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    Jarrulus




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    Sorry, that I don't contribute anything to the Jason/Harley discussion but I don't like the idea.
    And being traumatized by the Joker isn't a good enough reason.
    Most batfam members are traumatized by the Joker. But that doesn't mean that Harley should f*ck with Bruce, Dick, Barbara, Tim, Damian or Alfred.

  12. #3852
    Mighty Member RedBird's Avatar
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    maple_DC

    cursed Jason Todd image


  13. #3853
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Maybe basing a potential Harley & Jason relationship on something resembling a mutual sponsor/sponsee type of arrangement instead of anything romantic or intimate would be the better way to approach it. Under the right pen I think it could work (not that I have the slightest idea of who could do it).

  14. #3854
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedBird View Post
    I'm going to assume this isn't directed towards me since I clearly didn't say Harley wasn't a victim.



    This statement is just confusing. Also I don't know what Damian has to do with this?

    Yeah, you could say Jason disobeyed an order because he 'wanted his mummy'. But that wasn't what got him killed? And he certainly didn't 'chase his own death'? I don't know how that pertains. Jason didn't 'get himself killed' he was contacting his mom when Joker crossed his path or more so trapped him and killed him. There was no way for him to know that simply speaking with his mother would lead to death via Joker.
    No it was directed at the poster Redmax 99

    I meant that by Jason leaving when he was told not one could blame him for falling into the hands of Joker.

    Harley didn't set out to fall for Joker anymore than Jason expected to fall into his hands or Babs expected to find Joker on the other side of the door.

  15. #3855

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