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  1. #3436
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    @jiaren584





    hwadrin94




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    Day 19 - Robin - The Boy Wonder - Jason Todd.


  2. #3437
    Wily Veteran cc008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    Well, that explains it. Tynion run is character assassination left and right for every single character involved. And on top of that, it has the ugliest art I've ever seen in a Big Two comic.
    I actually liked the art a lot lol. Could you explain why the character assassination? Or why you find it that bad? I'd love to understand these characters more

  3. #3438
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Wow, @Seagard; gorgeous art all those you've posted.

    On the topic of RHATO during New 52.

    In my case, I dropped the book in that arc: it bored me too much, and all being too much over the top didn't help. But it's just my opinion.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 10-20-2019 at 01:10 PM.
    This is a signature. It has letters on it, and those letters form words. Words like these. I will not quote anything because I'm uninspired but, I read a lot: I could!

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  4. #3439
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    I think I have to reread the New52 run because I have already forgotten some stuff. (I can't remember what Kori was doing in Tynion's run, for example.)
    The artwork in Tynion's run isn't my favorite style either, although it's not my least favorite. There are worse.

    I don't like amnesia arcs (in US-comics) in general. More often than not it just feels like a new writer wants to have an easy start without caring about character consistency.
    A character with amnesia doesn't need to be in-character because they have amnesia.

    I like Ra's Al Ghul - and it would have been interesting to see a confrontation between Jason and Ra's without Jason being amnesic. It could have been a good character study to show their similarities but also their differences. Sadly, that's not what the arc was about.

    Bronze Tiger was a positive addition.

    Also a plus: Tynion bringing Ducra back as ghost. I like her character and was sad that Lobdell killed her before she even was properly introduced.

    The arc was very heavy on mystical stuff - which seems to be Tynion's strong point/passion. But I feel like Tynion went too far.
    I don't like that Jason met Talia as kid (before he met Bruce) and defeated an Untitled by using some strange move he was able to do because he's "born special".
    For me, Jason was always the "hard worker" and not the character with "perfect genes", "genius talent" or "destined for greatness".

  5. #3440
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    I actually liked Talia & Jason having a connection pre-Bruce but the way Tynion approached it wasn’t the best.

  6. #3441
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Even with that, you can argue that, despite anything related with his birth or whatever mystical stuff, he's still a hard worker to his bone. He was delivered some really awful cards that could've mean his death or his absolute fall even before he died, and he has played them the best he could. He still does. I usually fall for that kind of character, and that didn't bother me that much as all the "I win like it's nothing here, look at those fancy moves I'm so awesome, this is all so cool" that put me off entirely, and the idea of that convoluted plan to deceive and defeat Ra's and his plans (something that came from nowhere, or at least I don't remember it being somehow laid before it happened): that was, eh, not my taste. I did like Roy's and Kori's role, as far as I recall: they really, really were shown caring for Jason. But even with that, it bored me. I skipped throughout the last issue and maybe the one before that. It probably doesn't help that at that time I had just finished reading pre-PF Red Robin and, well, it was much more fun to read.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 10-20-2019 at 03:11 PM.
    This is a signature. It has letters on it, and those letters form words. Words like these. I will not quote anything because I'm uninspired but, I read a lot: I could!

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  7. #3442
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cc008 View Post
    I actually liked the art a lot lol. Could you explain why the character assassination? Or why you find it that bad? I'd love to understand these characters more
    Let's start with Jason. Something that has always characterized him is the fact that he will always do what he thinks is right and will stand up for what he believes. And what Tynion do? Turn him into a weak-willed individual that needs to be told what to do. The entire arc Jason is being played like a fiddle by Ducra and the League. Tynion deciding to use an amnesia plotline didn't do him any favor either since it is one of the tritest and overused cliches. And whether he had to change things midways or not, the ending is unearned, with Jason's motivation being completely nonsensical. But the worst part is that Tynion intentionally fooled the reader by retconning Jason's and Ducra meeting in issue 19 when it was shown again in issue 27. Tying him to the League is incredibly forced (especially with Damian existing), adding baggage to Jason that doesn't add anything and just works to enforce the misconception that Jason was written in the N52 like this Mary Sue, able to anything and everything.

    Roy relationship with Jason has always been a complicated issue amidst comic fans, but in general, Lobdell made an effort to show them like the kind of "bro" friendship one can find among high schoolers, a lot of bant, reluctance to acknowledge the relationship as genuine friendship and so on. And yet, Roy was never depicted as being clingy. Tynion outright made Roy unwilling to live without Jason and generally turned him into a whiny caricature of how Lobdell wrote him during the previous 18 issues. He also exaggerated Roy's knack for invention, taking a very literal interpretation of the Arsenal name, by arming him to the teeth and making him pull stuff that it wouldn't be out of place in the trashiest 90s comic.

    I honestly can't even recall what was Kori characterization besides some vague impressions that he made her very moody and prone to violence.

    The idea that the League would have a mythical, secret city is laughably bad, and it doesn't mesh with any previous depiction of the league. the most they've been shown to have is hidden fortresses and the like. They are also martial artists so Tynion's OCs, are awfully out of place. Having them stomp over everyone else just to show how cool they are, just make them more insufferable, so it is no wonder no one mentioned them ever again. Same with Bronze Tiger's power to turn into a weretiger.

    Ra's was written like a cartoon villain, with none of the nuance or depth he usually has, with the cherry on the top of the crappy cake is him being defeated by something out of a Saturday Morning Cartoon.

    Lobdell never fully explored the lore behind the All Caste and the Untitled, but it was obvious the whole thing wasn't as fantastical as Tynion wrote it. So the whole thing just comes off as forced, and Jason becoming this chosen one is in extremely bad taste. So bad that even Lobdell took a jab at it later, when he wrote Jason telling to Ducra's face that he would never be a chosen one.

    Dunno, the whole thing is just poorly planned and written, with the kind of plot holes and poor characterization that I'd expect from a fanfiction writer, not a professional one.

  8. #3443
    Wily Veteran cc008's Avatar
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    Thanks so much for going into detail. I can agree that Jason always doing what he believes to be right appears to be super evident to me and being strung along isn't great. I didn't mind the amnesia stuff because to a new reader like me, I was learning about his past as it was explored. (However poorly more veteran fans may find it).

    I'm reading through Batman, Detective Comics, Nightwing, RHATO, and Batman and Robin all from New 52.. trying to absorb as much as possible.
    Last edited by cc008; 10-20-2019 at 03:40 PM.

  9. #3444
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cc008 View Post
    Thanks so much for going into detail. I can agree that Jason always doing what he believes to be right appears to be super evident to me and being strung along isn't great. I didn't mind the amnesia stuff because to a new reader like me, I was learning about his past as it was explored. (However poorly more veteran fans may find it).

    I'm reading through Batman, Detective Comics, Nightwing, RHATO, and Batman and Robin all from New 52.. trying to absorb as much as possible.
    Just to point this out; I wouldn't get too attached to the New52. Even for Jason, whom was largely left alone in regards to characterization, had his New52 origin retconned back to post-Crisis.

  10. #3445
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Just to point this out; I wouldn't get too attached to the New52. Even for Jason, whom was largely left alone in regards to characterization, had his New52 origin retconned back to post-Crisis.
    It wasn't retconned, the two were combined. Plus, the entire of Rebirth run heavily references and/or alludes the N52 and DCYOU runs.

  11. #3446
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    So Jason met Bruce stealing the tyres, but he actually crossed paths with him when he stole from Leslie (it was Leslie, right?)? And he thought he was born in a hospital, but according to the letter, he was born in his home. There seems to be some minor contradictions, or at the very least, an unclear sequence of events.
    This is a signature. It has letters on it, and those letters form words. Words like these. I will not quote anything because I'm uninspired but, I read a lot: I could!

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  12. #3447
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    So Jason met Bruce stealing the tyres, but he actually crossed paths with him when he stole from Leslie (it was Leslie, right?)? And he thought he was born in a hospital, but according to the letter, he was born in his home. There seems to be some minor contradictions, or at the very least, an unclear sequence of events.
    Probably the latter. If they settle on a timeline, they can simply explain the inconsistencies by saying those were said by unreliable narrators.

  13. #3448
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    Probably the latter. If they settle on a timeline, they can simply explain the inconsistencies by saying those were said by unreliable narrators.
    Mmmm... Well, the unreliable narrator is kind of present in Jason's stories, wouldn't be the first time. So yeah, I can see them going that way.
    This is a signature. It has letters on it, and those letters form words. Words like these. I will not quote anything because I'm uninspired but, I read a lot: I could!

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  14. #3449
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    I don't like the New52 Leslie origin. I hate the idea of Jason stealing from a woman who just helped him. The post-crisis origin is perfect. There was never a need for a change.

    I also hate the unreliable narrator trope. It's a cheap trick to retcon stuff that wasn't liked by readers.

  15. #3450
    Mighty Member RedBird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    I don't like the New52 Leslie origin. I hate the idea of Jason stealing from a woman who just helped him. The post-crisis origin is perfect. There was never a need for a change.

    I also hate the unreliable narrator trope. It's a cheap trick to retcon stuff that wasn't liked by readers.
    Agreed, Lobdell messed with something that was already iconic and didn't need any changes. I've already made posts about this, so I'm not gonna pull out panels again but suffice to say, Jason claims on both origins that that is when he 'met Batman'. In the context, you can't meet someone twice. It's contradiction. So I don't care what Lobdell says, I'm just grateful the tire origin is back, and a good riddance to the drug theft origin. Not only did it miss the point of Jasons character and give absolutely NOTHING in it's place that displayed his attitude and virtues as the tire origin did, it even made Bruce seem like a heartless brute ready to arrest a homeless kid if not for Leslie coming in and imploring Bruce not to arrest Jason.

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