Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Batman, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2019

[Rac7d*]

Those owls need to burn makin my boys cry

[L.H.]

I think you're right, ASBR is not in continuity. I was just pointing out that. It could be a Jurgens mistake, I don't know.
I'm confused just like you

[Badou]

It was a poor attempt at Jurgens to retcon the Ric story to connect to his current Owls arc more. It wasn't very good and made no sense. The Owls actions and motivations are completely baffling here. Dick was never this grand figure the Owls must have in the original story. Also it really highlighted why I kind of dislike the Owls overall. The concept is fine, but the execution has been bad in my opinion. I dislike how much they have been crammed into Dick's history and how they forced them to be these grand manipulators in Dick's life at every turn. His background, his family, the circus, and now even this **** Ric story. I feel like they have ruined Dick's origin and history without really replacing it with anything of even equal value. I bet they will eventually have it where the Owls were actually the ones that killed Dick's parents and manipulated Dick to be taken in by Bruce eventually too at this rate.

Dick's hasn't had a "great" or "iconic" Owls story that made it all worth it I feel like. If Dick had a great Owls story where forcing them into Dick's history, family, and background felt worth it then I'd feel different. I'd be fine with how invasive they are making them, but the best Owls story was a Batman and Bruce story not a Dick or Nightwing story. Dick was just an ancillary character in Snyder's big Court of Owls story where Bruce got to do everything and Higgings Owls story, the Seeley Owls story, and especially this Jurgens Owls story have not been great. The most iconic moment Dick had in Snyder's whole Owls story was being punched in the face by Bruce, which is pathetic. People at DC look at that punch as "character development" and is probably why the character gets treated like garbage all the time.

I get some people really like the Owls, but as we see them more and more my dislike for them kind of grows. I don't think ruining Dick's background, ruining the circus setting, and especially killing off Mr Haly for the Owls was worth it in the end. Killing off Mr Haly who is maybe Dick's only recurring supporting character that is solely his and no one elses was a stupid decision. Remember all those crappy characters from that New 52 story? Raya or Saiko. So forgettable and not worth all the stuff the Owls have kind of destroyed and I don't know if there will ever be an Owls story written for Dick that will make all this feel worth it.

Okay... I'm a bit confused. I thought All-Star Batman and Robin was not the continuity that the Nightwing series was set in (again, I might be wrong with this). Am I really off-base here. Dick was not suppose to have the "fear" of guns that Bruce has because his parents weren't shot (at least, that's how I remember it). Is ASBR now the new continuity, or is everything just a toss-up anymore?

I don't mean to sound confusing... But this is kind of bugging me.

ASBR should not be in continuity and Dick should have no fear of guns. It is the creators not understanding the character.

[Nine Crocodile]

Okay... I'm a bit confused. I thought All-Star Batman and Robin was not the continuity that the Nightwing series was set in (again, I might be wrong with this). Am I really off-base here. Dick was not suppose to have the "fear" of guns that Bruce has because his parents weren't shot (at least, that's how I remember it). Is ASBR now the new continuity, or is everything just a toss-up anymore?

I don't mean to sound confusing... But this is kind of bugging me.

No worries. It's understandable.

ASBR takes place in Frank Miller's "Dark Knight" universe, I believe. So this is either a retcon or a mistake. It would be wild, though (and this is just silly speculation on my part), if it turns out that the whole "out" for the Ric storyline is that the book has been set in the ASBR universe since #50.

[Rac7d*]

It was a poor attempt at Jurgens to retcon the Ric story to connect to his current Owls arc more. It wasn't very good and made no sense. The Owls actions and motivations are completely baffling here. Dick was never this grand figure the Owls must have in the original story. Also it really highlighted why I kind of dislike the Owls overall. The concept is fine, but the execution has been bad in my opinion. I dislike how much they have been crammed into Dick's history and how they forced them to be these grand manipulators in Dick's life at every turn. His background, his family, the circus, and now even this **** Ric story. I feel like they have ruined Dick's origin and history without really replacing it with anything of even equal value. I bet they will eventually have it where the Owls were actually the ones that killed Dick's parents and manipulated Dick to be taken in by Bruce eventually too at this rate.

Dick's hasn't had a "great" or "iconic" Owls story that made it all worth it I feel like. If Dick had a great Owls story where forcing them into Dick's history, family, and background felt worth it then I'd feel different. I'd be fine with how invasive they are making them, but the best Owls story was a Batman and Bruce story not a Dick or Nightwing story. Dick was just an ancillary character in Snyder's big Court of Owls story where Bruce got to do everything and Higgings Owls story, the Seeley Owls story, and especially this Jurgens Owls story have not been great. The most iconic moment Dick had in Snyder's whole Owls story was being punched in the face by Bruce, which is pathetic. People at DC look at that punch as "character development" and is probably why the character gets treated like garbage all the time.

I get some people really like the Owls, but as we see them more and more my dislike for them kind of grows. I don't think ruining Dick's background, ruining the circus setting, and especially killing off Mr Haly for the Owls was worth it in the end. Killing off Mr Haly who is maybe Dick's only recurring supporting character that is solely his and no one elses was a stupid decision. Remember all those crappy characters from that New 52 story? Raya or Saiko. So forgettable and not worth all the stuff the Owls have kind of destroyed and I don't know if there will ever be an Owls story written for Dick that will make all this feel worth it.



ASBR should not be in continuity and Dick should have no fear of guns. It is the creators not understanding the character.

Dick of course not, but this ric persona brainwashed

[Ascended]

Dick's hasn't had a "great" or "iconic" Owls story that made it all worth it I feel like.

He hasn't. At least not yet. But you never know, someone could come along and really make the whole thing work right.

I get some people really like the Owls, but as we see them more and more my dislike for them kind of grows.

I really like the basic concept. A secret society in Gotham? Of course there is. I'm actually sort of surprised no one really dived into the idea before this. Great name, great creepy masks, great enforcers in the Talons. Excellent foundation for a new Gotham rogue group. But it seems like the more they get used the less interesting and more....weird....they become. I really didn't care for what Metal did with them. Like, all of a sudden they worship a bat demon? Just.....what? Why? Where did *that* come from? Did I overlook something from earlier stories (like the Black Mirror or whatever that I still haven't read)? They seemed like such a great way to get back around to some of the pulp/detective elements the Bat mythos has moved away from....and all of a sudden they're using cosmic space metals to summon a bat demon who's going to eat the world.

As far as Dick and the Owls go.....I'm not against them using the circus as a recruiting ground. It's not anything Dick would have seen or experienced so it doesn't impact his development. It's like growing up and finding out your parents had struggled a lot with money but you never knew it. It puts a little tarnish on those childhood memories but nothing more. And I can see why the Owls would recruit from among circus performers, and why Haly would have to let them (he's touring through Gotham, Haly certainly cut deals with other unsavory folk). But there's a line I don't want crossed here. The Owls could have considered Dick a potential recruit before the Grayson shooting, Dicks grand-daddy might've been a former recruit too, but I don't want or need them pulling every string behind Dick's life and choices. Dick still needs to have agency in his own story, not be the pawn of a unseen power.

[Godlike13]

He hasn't. At least not yet. But you never know, someone could come along and really make the whole thing work right.

That someone sure isn’t Jurgan’s though. He is well into his Owls arc and it’s been nothing but a drawn out bore. The covers accomplish as much as his by the numbers story has. His Cobb is beyond terrible. Cobb has some how gone from a stoic zombie like assassin, to a mustache twirling villain that doesn’t shut up and is nothing but talk. And this lame ass story is what Jurgan’s is now trying to say Ric has been leading too. Which is sadly I guess better then the obvious reality that Ric was never actually leading to jack ****, and nobody on the title had a clue what they were actually doing with it. So now they are just tying to insert something well after the fact. Which ok I guess is something, but part of me would respect the people on the Nightwing book more if they just owned up to their laziness and obvious failings with the title.

Btw between Cobb and the ASBR origin here, I question if Jurgan's did much research for his run.

[Aahz]

It was a poor attempt at Jurgens to retcon the Ric story to connect to his current Owls arc more. It wasn't very good and made no sense. The Owls actions and motivations are completely baffling here. Dick was never this grand figure the Owls must have in the original story. Also it really highlighted why I kind of dislike the Owls overall. The concept is fine, but the execution has been bad in my opinion. I dislike how much they have been crammed into Dick's history and how they forced them to be these grand manipulators in Dick's life at every turn. His background, his family, the circus, and now even this **** Ric story. I feel like they have ruined Dick's origin and history without really replacing it with anything of even equal value. I bet they will eventually have it where the Owls were actually the ones that killed Dick's parents and manipulated Dick to be taken in by Bruce eventually too at this rate.

The big Problem with the Owls is imo also that they have been compelty destroyed several times in the comics, it just makes no reason that they still exist.

[Badou]

I really like the basic concept. A secret society in Gotham? Of course there is. I'm actually sort of surprised no one really dived into the idea before this.

I think the concept of them is great with what Snyder and Capullo did with them in his Batman run, and I completely understand why readers would be fans of the concept. I don't fault them for it as tt is very interesting, but when it comes to Dick I feel like we haven't had that killer story yet to make it all worth it. If we had that then I'd be a lot more accommodating.

The big Problem with the Owls is imo also that they have been compelty destroyed several times in the comics, it just makes no reason that they still exist.

Yeah, they are falling into that League of Assassins category of kind of being an organization that shows up just to be defeated, and their actions lack the punch they used to. I don't think anyone really knows what their goal is anymore.

[Aahz]

Yeah, they are falling into that League of Assassins category of kind of being an organization that shows up just to be defeated, and their actions lack the punch they used to. I don't think anyone really knows what their goal is anymore.

With the League they loose but they were never really destoyed, and the losses they usually have a probably pretty minor in comparison to their size.

The Owls should have been imo allready finished after Lincon March killed all the leaders, and after what happend during Seeleys run on Nightwing there should really be almost nothing left of them.

[L.H.]

Or, just like Talons, they all can resurrect.

[dropkickjake]

Yeah, the annual really wasn't bad. If the owl arc had been better overall, this would feel like a genius retcon which would allow usto ignore all the burnback bullshit. Instead, though, its marred by how boring the overall arc has been.

On the subject of the court their role with the circus, I like it overall. I think it can establish Bill Haly (or CC or whoever is in charge) as the first ring leader to refuse the owls their conscript. That has the potential for real emotional impact.

[OWL45]

Is the female doctor that treated him possibly related?

[byrd156]

Btw between Cobb and the ASBR origin here, I question if Jurgan's did much research for his run.

Yeah the ASBAR stuff reeks of a lazy google search. Or he just really really liked the convoluted plan of Joker hiring a guy to shoot Dick's parents in a crowded circus tent instead of making it look like an accident. Either one works if you don't think about it.

[Lady Nightwing]

I haven't read the issue but I saw a theory that the memory of his parents being shot might be a false one implanted by the owls. Does that make sense to any of you guys who read the issue?